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Any TUGgers attending the KBV IOA conference call?

tedtomkins

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The cost to a 2BR owner, if billed as a direct special assessment, is estimated at about $8900 per week owned. That's about $445K per condo (assuming 50 weeks), give or take a few thousand. (In my book, that qualifies as mid-six figures.)

Bulldozing and rebuilding is probably not going to be significantly cheaper, nor will it be fast. How many owners will keep paying on a property that they can't use for a few or maybe even several years?

And that's why the termination vote was proposed: Sell the whole thing, lock stock and barrel to someone else, and distribute the proceeds. To me, it is the only option that makes any sense at all--at least for the interval/timeshare owners. The calculus may be different for whole owners, but that's going to vary by individual.
Hmmm ... what am I missing here. The units are functional. Why wouldn't they continue to be functional while one unit at a time is upgraded. Effectively, this is what is happening to a small extent with building H.

I'm not saying this is cost effective use of our maintenance fees or that we can withstand this level of maintenance over time, but at least we will still be able to use the buildings that are serviceable while major maintenance in performed on a different building.
 

tedtomkins

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The following message was sent to the IOA board ! I hope that it makes the board communicate with all of this !! If they expect us to pay
maintenance fees in January 2024 they will need to communicate. This message was sent by the owners since 2000.
Dear KBV Board,

After six months of no communication after you cancelled the vote meeting and the annual meeting, gave us no annual report, and basically have left all the owners hanging, my husband and Jay want an update now on KBV.

After seeing the closed buildings in November, 2022, and seeing the unbelievable damage to the balconies of F,G,&H, we saw the culmination of Wyndham's lack of proper maintenance from all our assessments from 23 years of being a deeded owner to a 2BR in Building F. Of course, this lack of maintenance is reiterated by the lawsuit of the year-round owners.

Needless to say, we no longer want this poor investment. Many others share this opinion.

We saw that Outrigger acquired Kauai Beach Resort, furthering investment in Hawaii.

https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2023/...ai-beach-resort-furthering-investment-hawaii/

After talking to numerous people at Wyndham over the last month, we found out that Wyndham representatives have no idea what is happening at KBV.

As owners we expect an immediate update update, answering these questions:


  1. What was the vote from all the electronic voting?
  2. Why was the annual meeting cancelled?
  3. Why has this Board not given us an annual report from 2022 and an update on KBV in six months?
  4. What is the meaning of the Outrigger purchase adjacent to KBV?
  5. Where are the 2023 newsletters for KBV?
Thank you for an immediate response!
For some reason, I am board notices. Who are the current board members and what is their affiliation, i.e., are they tied to Wyndham?
 

bnoble

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The units are functional. Why wouldn't they continue to be functional while one unit at a time is upgraded.
Because the problem isn’t the units. It’s the bones of the buildings. If you haven’t done so recently, It’s probably worth (re-)reading the last few letters from the Board at the Owner’s Community site, plus the letter explaining the vote.


They might be able to do one building at a time, but the real question is whether or not it is worth roughly $450K per unit to do that. I don’t think so.
 
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bnoble

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I should probably not post in the middle of the night, because I am not sure I made sense up above.

Hmmm ... what am I missing here. The units are functional. Why wouldn't they continue to be functional while one unit at a time is upgraded. Effectively, this is what is happening to a small extent with building H.

I'm not saying this is cost effective use of our maintenance fees or that we can withstand this level of maintenance over time, but at least we will still be able to use the buildings that are serviceable while major maintenance in performed on a different building.
This is certainly possible. And, for now, that's the plan. Hire a bunch of contractors etc. to repair/remediate the construction defects and subsequent damage to the buildings. The problem isn't whether or not that can happen, or even whether or not it could be done one building at a time.

The problem is that the cost of repair/remediation is large enough that it is probably not worth doing---about what the condos were worth before this was all discovered. They are not going to suddenly be worth twice what they were worth before, so IMO liquidation makes more financial sense.

For those of us who own a few timeshare weeks, that's no big deal---they were already worth less-than-zero, because people were paying closing costs and sometimes offering a year of free use to give them away. It's not like we are losing anything other than the ability to continue to pay MFs and vacation there. I will miss that, but there are other resorts in Hawaii and some of those are also close-to-free to buy. Heck, I'd rather spend $9K each on a couple of good Marriott traders than "re-buy" my KBV weeks for $9K each. The liquidation process makes that easy--much easier than going into default, which is the other way not to "re-buy" them if for some reason the liquidation vote fails.

The whole owners, on the other hand? The are out some very real money, because the whole condos were worth mid-six-figures, and now they aren't worth much at all.

Some of the Board members are also affiliated with Wyndham, but I don't see Wyndham being in any different position than we are. They also probably don't want to spend $450K per condo for condos they already own. They don't really need to push anyone out, because the bad debt (i.e. owners who are not paying) has been high enough and growing that they can re-acquire deeds by foreclosure probably about as fast as they can sell them again. No one is "winning" in any of this, we are all just screwed.

In the beginning of August, the IOA filled a Motion for Summary Judgement, essentially saying: The whole owners aren't members of the IOA, therefore we don't owe them any fiduciary duty. Also, they've had a year's worth of discovery and don't have any material facts at all backing up their stated-with-no-proof allegations that the IOA was in a criminal conspiracy with the AOAO or any other defendants.

Obviously, this is the IOA's perspective and not that of the plaintiffs or the court, but as a member of the IOA I found it interesting reading. I bought a copy and uploaded it to the same Google Drive directory as the original complaint, labeled document 006.


In related news, the oceanview units appear once again to be reservable for use in 2014. I don't know if they are all in F, or if one of the other two is now habitable.
 
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magmue

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Thank you for posting those. Interesting reading.

From the original complaint, page 4: "Defendant Wyndham owns, manages or controls approximately 80% of the individual units in Buildings “A”-“E”, and approximately 20% of the units in Buildings “F”-“H”.

And then later same page: "Almost all of the Plaintiffs in this action all reside in buildings F, G, and H.

And top of page 5: "Defendant Wyndham, via its stranglehold over the AOAO Board, dictated that the AOAO direct maintenance resources primarily to Buildings “A”-“E” where it owns or controls the majority – upwards of 80% – of the units. By doing so, the other Buildings, “F”-“H”, have suffered from a lack of ordinary maintenance and upkeep."

It's an interesting through line, but glosses over the fact that the F, G, and H are the oceanfront buildings, and are likely more subject to spalling damage etc from ocean exposure.
 

tango

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It is interesting, from a purely legal point of view, what the chances the whole owners have to win their suit. It does not seem likely that simply keeping up with maintenance would have prevented the structural problems and needed remediation. Sounds like it would be quite easy for Wyndham and the AOAO to escape responsibility for the deficiency of the original builders. So I hope that a judgement is coming sooner rather than later.
 

schreff

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It is interesting, from a purely legal point of view, what the chances the whole owners have to win their suit. It does not seem likely that simply keeping up with maintenance would have prevented the structural problems and needed remediation. Sounds like it would be quite easy for Wyndham and the AOAO to escape responsibility for the deficiency of the original builders. So I hope that a judgement is coming sooner rather than later.
A full and complete resolution should come sooner than later. It is totally unfair and negligent that owners are not fully informed about what is going on. The legal action does not alleviate the BOD's fiduciary responsibilities. All owners are in the dark and with unbearable inflationary times of high gas prices, high heating prices, super high grocery prices et al and interest rate increases affecting everyone, owners should know if they should pay their next maintenance fee or just let them go. You can't tell me that throughout the years a prudent person would not have had known/discovered the structural problems considering the changes of ownership, regular maintenance and management inspections, repairs,etc.. Something just doesn't smell right and when you can't get questions answered by the BOD and resort managers this only creates an environment of suspicion.

Lastly, the fact of waiting until the legal action is done is oxymoronic. Why? Well, what if the figures given for remediation are inaccurate (they have to be)? What if the special assessment is now only special assessment #1 and there is a special assessment #2 needed? Inflation and interest rates are a major factor in considering what the beginning and what the end will cost so have these been included in the projections? What if another catastrophe occurs like the Maui fires?
 
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CO skier

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You can't tell me that throughout the years a prudent person would not have had known/discovered the structural problems considering the changes of ownership, regular maintenance and management inspections, repairs,etc..
"In this (KBV IOA Newsletter Volume 2 2022 April28, 2022) newsletter we want to provide you a historical overview of the AOAO processes and discoveries following the flooding on March 28, 2020. The issues being discovered continue to surprise us. As the engineers found one issue needing repair they would open or remove something and discover another issue, like peeling an onion with a new problem in each layer. Project History This uncovering of the many latent problems in the project began following the flood in March 2020 when the ground floors of five of our eight buildings were flooded.The remediation of the flooded units required the removal of the lower four feet of drywall. For the first time since the buildings were constructed in 1980 –42years ago– this exposed the inside of the walls, allowing for inspection. As a resultof the inspection process, multiple original construction defects were uncovered."

Emphasis added. Anyone who has opened the walls of a 40+ year-old home can attest to the fact that previously "unkown surprises" can only be known when the walls are opened. It has nothing to do with the previous owners or any property manager.
 

Neelhon

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(Some of) the whole owners certainly have. That's why the vote was delayed.

When the suit is resolved, we'll go back to moving forward with the vote to terminate, and then see what happens. I'm not sure what else anyone hopes to accomplish by rattling sabers. Unless we think the Board is lying to us, we know the state of the buildings is precarious, and that repairing them is prohibitively expensive. And, if the Board is lying, the whole owners will figure that out in the process of discovery in their lawsuit.

It's like the old Heinz commercial.
I’ve never seen that commercial but it’s pretty adorable
 

schreff

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"In this (KBV IOA Newsletter Volume 2 2022 April28, 2022) newsletter we want to provide you a historical overview of the AOAO processes and discoveries following the flooding on March 28, 2020. The issues being discovered continue to surprise us. As the engineers found one issue needing repair they would open or remove something and discover another issue, like peeling an onion with a new problem in each layer. Project History This uncovering of the many latent problems in the project began following the flood in March 2020 when the ground floors of five of our eight buildings were flooded.The remediation of the flooded units required the removal of the lower four feet of drywall. For the first time since the buildings were constructed in 1980 –42years ago– this exposed the inside of the walls, allowing for inspection. As a resultof the inspection process, multiple original construction defects were uncovered."

Emphasis added. Anyone who has opened the walls of a 40+ year-old home can attest to the fact that previously "unkown surprises" can only be known when the walls are opened. It has nothing to do with the previous owners or any property manager.
Emphasis added: It is oxymoronic to think that a single wall of one of the affected KBV units has never been opened in 42 years. The onion should have been pealed then. Also, during this period hasn't there been any inspections required? If not, why not? If so, what was the extent and results of the inspections? It seems to me that a financial institution would require an inspection of significant scope before lending sizable amounts of money. Was either this specific problem or a related structural problem known in the past? If so, why wasn't it disclosed on any sale of individual units, transfers of property or the sale of the entire resort as required by most states? So many questions and so few answers.
 

Karenbuch

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GTL
I have a medical appointment during the call (9A HST/3P EDT). Is anyone here able to listen in and report back to the group? It sounds as though @jacknsara is also unable to attend.

I read that Outrigger bought KBV in August. Why have the owners not been told? Let alone bern paid something for our property?
 

DeniseM

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I believe you are talking about the hotel portion - not the timeshares.
 
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