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troy12n

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You speak of "value", but anyone who bought a timeshare as an investment is a fool, so any claims of "value" are moot. It's a vacation vehicle, nothin more, nothing less. And an expensive one at that.

The fact that a minority of owners were able to break even or turn a profit on something that is not meant to even do that, doesn't matter. You all were breaking the rules the whole time, and knew it.

You can put whatever kind of spin on it you want, but the more you do, the more desperate you look, as a group, to validate your fraudulent activities. Get over it. Move on, turn away from the dark side.
 

CO skier

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I'm a pattern type person - I have seen this pattern emerging over the past three years outside of TUG and also here on TUG.
Most who post in the TUG Wyndham forum are more forward-looking and knowledge than the Facebook mobs.

The "pattern" starting emerging in the TUG Wyndham forum 10 years ago, if not before.

 

HitchHiker71

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Most who post in the TUG Wyndham forum are more forward-looking and knowledge than the Facebook mobs.

The "pattern" starting emerging in the TUG Wyndham forum 10 years ago, if not before.


Indeed - that's why I referenced since I became an owner in July 2018 - having joined TUG in June 2018 when I rescinded my initial developer purchase. It's good to know that this pattern is clearly demonstrated prior to my joining TUG - however I cannot comment on that since it's before my time. :cool:
 

comicbookman

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I'm just wondering... at what point does your incessant ranting about my guest status become not an "opposing viewpoint", but outright harassment?

If the owners of this website had intentions of requiring a paid subscription model for all users, that's their prerogative to implement that. As it stands, they don't. My guest status is of absolutely zero concern to you, or anyone else. I don't get access to certain functionality inside the website that you do... I made a value decision to be a guest. That's my choice, and considering my decision does not in any way affect you whatsoever, I would suggest you keep you opinions to yourself on the subject in the future...

Also, conflating my using this website for free... as the owners allow, to shill bidders, who do, fraudulently inflate the cost of the auctions, directly affecting buyers and potential bidders, is a ridiculous comparison.

I am simply pointing out that High moral ground is a matter of opinion. In my opinion you don't occupy it.
 

CO skier

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You speak of "value", but anyone who bought a timeshare as an investment is a fool, so any claims of "value" are moot. It's a vacation vehicle, nothin more, nothing less. And an expensive one at that.
I purchased (on eBay -- sent a check for more than $8,000 with no hesitation to a seller I had dealt with before) and use my timeshare ownerships strictly for personal use. Ten years ago, it started out saving me at least $1,000/year versus comparable rentals (if I could even find something comparable). Now I save at least $3,000/year versus comparable rentals, because I am spending much more time vacationing now than ten years ago.

That's at least $20,000 over the last ten years that I can spend elsewhere. Some of that did and will continue to go towards increasing my timeshare portfolio. For me, timeshare ownership offers value beyond belief.
 

comicbookman

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Well, to your point, there's really only ONE person who I have called out by name, he knows who he is. And at this point it's beating a dead horse.

And, in my opinion, you can't harass "a group" who is acting against the best interests of all owners, doing things which run counter to the rules. IE: calling mega renters fraudulent. You also can't be punished for calling out bad, detrimental, fraudulent behavior. If you fall into this category, sorry for your luck... change your behavior. Weren't you selling out anyway? So this won't be a concern of yours for very much longer...

Me, and many other owners here see mega renters behavior as detrimental to our ownership, and we are glad Wyndham is finally taking a stance against the scourge of mega renters.

And i've had many of my posts edited or deleted as a result... and if nothing else this is more of a call out to moderators to moderate more evenly.

It is the definition of harassment to beat a dead horse. So in your own words you are harassing.
 

Jan M.

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It is the definition of harassment to beat a dead horse. So in your own words you are harassing.

The person he is supposedly "harrassing" is guilty of beating a dead horse. By that rational we should all be saying she is guilty of "harassing" us with her personal tales of woe and vitriol against Wyndham.
 

HitchHiker71

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I purchased (on eBay -- sent a check for more than $8,000 with no hesitation to a seller I had dealt with before) and use my timeshare ownerships strictly for personal use. Ten years ago, it started out saving me at least $1,000/year versus comparable rentals (if I could even find something comparable). Now I save at least $3,000/year versus comparable rentals, because I am spending much more time vacationing now than ten years ago.

That's at least $20,000 over the last ten years that I can spend elsewhere. Some of that did and will continue to go towards increasing my timeshare portfolio. For me, timeshare ownership offers value beyond belief.

Your assessment proves out my spreadsheet analyses to date - the longer you own timeshares and the more you utilize what you own - the better the ROI becomes over the long term. Timesharing ROI is realized over a 10+ year period of time IME. I'm on track - roughly four years into my Wyndham VIP timeshare ownership - to break even within the 10 year time period - and anything beyond that just drives down my long term cost of ownership when compared to a resale-only ownership.
 

rickandcindy23

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The person he is supposedly "harrassing" is guilty of beating a dead horse. By that rational we should all be saying she is guilty of "harassing" us with her personal tales of woe and vitriol against Wyndham.
Are you talking about me, because I don't feel harassed. I don't feel that way at all. I just think the attitudes toward mega renters have made a big turnaround since I joined in 2005. Most of those that are angry at mega renters are newer members. You don't see older members attacking people who are upset about the letters. It's the new members who probably didn't get in on the ground floor, when it was cheap to get Platinum status.

I am done with this one because now I even feel attacked by people whom I know were renting. When that happens, you know you are in the minority.

I wish you all well. I am done with the Wyndham forum and with Wyndham. I have been teetering on keeping some of our Founder's points and that level of ownership, but I think I have been talked out of keeping anything. I cannot be the benevolent aunt or grandparent or sister because I cannot add names to anything.
 

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The thing with mega renters, is that many TUG members have been mega renters but remain silent because of the vitriol here on TUG by about 4 members and guests. I keep wondering which of you are Wyndham higher-ups who are just trying to demonize mega renters to get the concensus on TUG against us.

Ironically, this has been a huge change in attitude on TUG. There were some really nice people who helped us 16 years ago on TUG with our decision to convert our Bali Hai weeks and gave advice right here in the open forums. But that has been quashed by Wyndham and the few cheerleaders.

Don't forget that you could become the target of these ever-changing rules that Wyndham puts into place.

Wyndham was always the cheapest timeshare on the market, and now it's below $0 for value. Wyndham did that. So what you own is now worthless, unless you own developer and have low MF's and take advantage of the discounts, which we will do, if we keep anything.
unless you own developer and have low MF's and take advantage of the discounts,

and even then its only worth something to you.. try to exit the system and you will find out it really is worthless
 

troy12n

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And still you keep responding to my posts that your only dog in this fight is "i'm a guest"...
 

bnoble

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Wyndham has been worth pennies on the dollar in the secondary market for almost as long as I've owned it--well before most of the moves Wyndham has made to curtail renting. And, that's probably not surprising, because for most people the value proposition is not in renting, it is in the using. Yes, a number of people have left (or been pushed out of) the rental business, but that seems to be on the margins of the overall market as near as I can tell.

Wyndham is worth very little on the secondary market because (a) timeshare is a product that is sold, not bought; (b) Wyndham's brand value recognition is not worth much compared to the majors; and (c) the system is huge, so at any point there are plenty of people looking to exit.

No one is going to get excited by the company that brought you La Quinta, Ramada, and Baymont. Those don't even rise to the level of your average Holiday Inn---and that's already low rent. But the WVR resorts themselves are generally very good, they are often in attractive locations, and the ongoing costs to own can be very reasonable. So, if someone can get past the "sold not bought" barrier and has some understanding of the portfolio, it can be one of the better values in timeshare ownership.

You don't need to own a developer account for this to be true. In fact, I suspect for many families' use cases, VIP is more or less useless. That's because they are traveling to high-demand locations at peak times, and those are not the sorts of reservations that are sitting around at the discount window. Upgrades are likewise not particularly helpful. If I need a 3BR, I'm not going to book the 2BR and hope I get upgraded. I am going to book the 3BR from the start. If I only needed the 2BR, maybe the 3BR is a little better for me, but maybe it makes no difference at all. Yes, you can probably find instances of people who can do most of their travel in shoulder seasons and make VIP hay, but you need an awful lot of those reservations to make back the difference in purchase price. When it comes time to dispose of it, even if you give it away, who cares? You paid next to nothing for it in the first place.
 

Jan M.

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Are you talking about me, because I don't feel harassed. I don't feel that way at all. I just think the attitudes toward mega renters have made a big turnaround since I joined in 2005. Most of those that are angry at mega renters are newer members. You don't see older members attacking people who are upset about the letters. It's the new members who probably didn't get in on the ground floor, when it was cheap to get Platinum status.

I am done with this one because now I even feel attacked by people whom I know were renting. When that happens, you know you are in the minority.

I wish you all well. I am done with the Wyndham forum and with Wyndham. I have been teetering on keeping some of our Founder's points and that level of ownership, but I think I have been talked out of keeping anything. I cannot be the benevolent aunt or grandparent or sister because I cannot add names to anything.

Many of us have vented in the threads. Nothing wrong with that. Not everyone agrees with our point of view when we do. Nothing wrong with that either.

Has Wyndham suspended your two Founders accounts from adding guest names to any reservations? if not as a preemptive move you might consider taking screenshots on say on something like White Pages that show your family members and your siblings children's names. Send them to Owner Care and Michael Brown's office as documentation that these are the people you will be using guest confirmations for.
 

ronparise

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The attitude on Tug toward renting Wydham timeshares has indeed changed over time. Its now pretty close to the way renting and renters were treated on the Worldmark Owners Forum (like crap)

The attitude is or at least seems to be that the money owners that rent, make, is some how picked from the pockets of owners that dont.
Thats just not true, especially today with the various loopholes having been closed for sometime.

The most ridiculous argument against renting is the "Non Owner argument" ie a non owner in a unit means an owner cant stay there. ..... Duh... of course not
What they dont seem to understand is that an owner in a unit means no other owner can stay in that unit either.

The only argument against renting that ever made sense to me was the argument against cancel and rebook. a VIP owner could get 2 prime reservations for the price (in points) of one. but that loophole has been closed for some time

What it comes down to is that those against renting simply resent someone that is able to use the system to make money.
 

ronparise

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Wyndham has been worth pennies on the dollar in the secondary market for almost as long as I've owned it--well before most of the moves Wyndham has made to curtail renting. And, that's probably not surprising, because for most people the value proposition is not in renting, it is in the using. Yes, a number of people have left (or been pushed out of) the rental business, but that seems to be on the margins of the overall market as near as I can tell.

Wyndham is worth very little on the secondary market because (a) timeshare is a product that is sold, not bought; (b) Wyndham's brand value recognition is not worth much compared to the majors; and (c) the system is huge, so at any point there are plenty of people looking to exit.

No one is going to get excited by the company that brought you La Quinta, Ramada, and Baymont. Those don't even rise to the level of your average Holiday Inn---and that's already low rent. But the WVR resorts themselves are generally very good, they are often in attractive locations, and the ongoing costs to own can be very reasonable. So, if someone can get past the "sold not bought" barrier and has some understanding of the portfolio, it can be one of the better values in timeshare ownership.

You don't need to own a developer account for this to be true. In fact, I suspect for many families' use cases, VIP is more or less useless. That's because they are traveling to high-demand locations at peak times, and those are not the sorts of reservations that are sitting around at the discount window. Upgrades are likewise not particularly helpful. If I need a 3BR, I'm not going to book the 2BR and hope I get upgraded. I am going to book the 3BR from the start. If I only needed the 2BR, maybe the 3BR is a little better for me, but maybe it makes no difference at all. Yes, you can probably find instances of people who can do most of their travel in shoulder seasons and make VIP hay, but you need an awful lot of those reservations to make back the difference in purchase price. When it comes time to dispose of it, even if you give it away, who cares? You paid next to nothing for it in the first place.

That says exactly what Ive been thinking about , VIP. Whats the point without cancel and rebook.?
 

bnoble

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Whats the point without cancel and rebook.?
I think the point is exactly what it was intended to be: a way to move distressed inventory that would otherwise go unbooked, clearing a few excess points from the system. If an owner happens to be flexible enough to take advantage of that, more power to them. Go for it!

I also think that there is an interesting intersection between VIP and renting that had value. There are a few TUGgers who, after cancel-rebook was closed, moved to a business model where they scoured the web site looking for things in the discount window that they might plausibly rent. I bet other people did too. That's probably a service, all things considered, because at least some of those would probably have gone unbooked. Clearing distressed inventory is a good thing. That the Wyndham sales organization has to subsidize it is a nice bonus.

Most of those TUGgers have either stopped or gone underground. If they've stopped, it is probably not good overall for the system, as it potentially leaves more unused points, and more distressed inventory.

What it comes down to is that those against renting simply resent someone that is able to use the system to make money.
At least for me, it is simpler than that. I'm in this for my own vacations. I understand that at some level I am in competition with every other owner in getting the vacations I want. My competitive advantage is that I understand the system better than most people, and I am willing to do what it takes to book my reservations as soon as humanly (computationally?) possible so that I have the best chance of getting what I want.

Folks in the business of renting have a strong economic incentive to also understand the system and to also put in the work to get high-value reservations. They are probably more motivated to do those things than the average owner. So, they are probably more "direct" competition for my own vacations.

I don't begrudge them the ability to make a few bucks along the way; that doesn't matter to me at all. But, I will not shed a tear if they liquidate their holdings and those points make their way to "regular" owners who don't work as hard as they did and aren't as much competition. I don't feel particularly bad for the ex-renters, and probably won't commiserate, because it's slightly better for me if they are out of the business. To badly mis-quote Michael Corleone: It's nothing personal, it's strictly vacation.
 
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ronparise

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Well, to your point, there's really only ONE person who I have called out by name, he knows who he is. And at this point it's beating a dead horse.

And, in my opinion, you can't harass "a group" who is acting against the best interests of all owners, doing things which run counter to the rules. IE: calling mega renters fraudulent. You also can't be punished for calling out bad, detrimental, fraudulent behavior. If you fall into this category, sorry for your luck... change your behavior. Weren't you selling out anyway? So this won't be a concern of yours for very much longer...

Me, and many other owners here see mega renters behavior as detrimental to our ownership, and we are glad Wyndham is finally taking a stance against the scourge of mega renters.

And i've had many of my posts edited or deleted as a result... and if nothing else this is more of a call out to moderators to moderate more evenly.


If Im that one you are talking about, You missed your mark.

I have never felt harassed when being called out for im doing, Ill take a look at the behavior, change it or not, and then move on. What I have done is to always try to have the last word, IE I wont let your accusations stand, when I know Ive done nothing to hurt anyone else.

For example as nuts as I think CoSkier is, I did listen and then change my mind about cancel and rebook. I acknowledged that exploitation of that loophole could disadvantage others
 

troy12n

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So there we have it from the horse's mouth... they don't feel harassed.

So maybe now that one TUGGER can shut their trap about my "guest" status... if the owners of this site (which you are not) wish to end people being able to join for free, then I will at that time make a value decision about whether or not to becoming a paying member... until then, since you aren't an owner or moderator, you can go pound sand...
 

troy12n

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So there we have it from the horse's mouth... they don't feel harassed.

So maybe now that one TUGGER can shut their trap about my "guest" status... if the owners of this site (which you are not) wish to end people being able to join for free, then I will at that time make a value decision about whether or not to becoming a paying member... until then, since you aren't an owner or moderator, you can go pound sand...
 

ronparise

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I think the point is exactly what it was intended to be: a way to move distressed inventory that would otherwise go unbooked, clearing a few excess points from the system. If an owner happens to be flexible enough to take advantage of that, more power to them. Go for it!

Yes, I understand the point of VIP discounts to be Wyndham's attempt to get unwanted (distressed) inventory reserved. But the benefit to the club is a subtle one. and the benefit to any one club member is, as you suggest, not worth the cost. There used to be a guy on the old Yahoo forums and tug (pacodemountainside) that made the case by comparing the money saved by the VIP owner making discount reservations to the money he could have made investing the purchase money into the stock market

I get it. Enticing owners to spend their points on inventory that no one wants, leaves less points available in the system to make reservations for the high demand reservations. but
I dont see that as a benefit to Wyndham, or the club. A resort could sit vacant most of the time and as long as everyone pays their mf, theres no loss to Wyndham or the club. And I dont see that there is much benefit to other owners. The fact that there may be a few less points available to compete for that high demand reservation I want, dosent change the fact that there are still a lot of points competing for that high demand reservation. Its like the lottery. If I decide not to buy a ticket for a multi million dollar lottery, doesnt change the odds significantly for those that do.

The point of VIP is to give the sales team something to use to help close sales, and thats all
 

geist1223

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Not a Wyndham Owner but I do own Worldmark. If Wyndham Corporate treats Wyndham like they treat Worldmark then they are the biggest megarenter.
 

CO skier

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The attitude on Tug toward renting Wydham timeshares has indeed changed over time. Its now pretty close to the way renting and renters were treated on the Worldmark Owners Forum (like crap)

The attitude is or at least seems to be that the money owners that rent, make, is some how picked from the pockets of owners that dont.
Thats just not true, especially today with the various loopholes having been closed for sometime.

The most ridiculous argument against renting is the "Non Owner argument" ie a non owner in a unit means an owner cant stay there. ..... Duh... of course not
What they dont seem to understand is that an owner in a unit means no other owner can stay in that unit either.
It is completely understandable that someone who views Club Wyndham through the lens of profitability would view the situation in this manner.

Owners complained when the vacation they wanted was not available for them to book, but they could easily find it for rent. What you are missing is that they were not complaining about the money; they were complaining about the time. If the vacation the owners wanted was available for them to reserve through Club Wyndham, they would not need to go looking for their vacation somewhere else and find the vacation advertised for rent. They would not care if someone was renting an identical vacation for profit, because there was enough to go around.

What you do not seem to understand is the implied exclusivity offered by a vacation club. If a private golf club allowed members to book the best tee times and offer them for rent, it would be more like a public golf course than a private golf club. Where is the exclusivity, which was the point of forming the club?

What you are also missing is club members understand when another member beats them to a vacation or a tee time. It is one thing if the member makes personal use of the vacation time or the tee time; that is the whole purpose of the club. The objection is when the vacation time or tee time slot is used by non-club members -- for profit or not does not make any difference. A "few" non-owner vacations or tee times can be a Club member's privilege, if that is what the Club decides.

That is what Club Wyndham has decided with the Owner Priority Booking exclusive dates.
 

Jan M.

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It is completely understandable that someone who views Club Wyndham through the lens of profitability would view the situation in this manner.

Owners complained when the vacation they wanted was not available for them to book, but they could easily find it for rent. What you are missing is that they were not complaining about the money; they were complaining about the time. If the vacation the owners wanted was available for them to reserve through Club Wyndham, they would not need to go looking for their vacation somewhere else and find the vacation advertised for rent. They would not care if someone was renting an identical vacation for profit, because there was enough to go around.

What you do not seem to understand is the implied exclusivity offered by a vacation club. If a private golf club allowed members to book the best tee times and offer them for rent, it would be more like a public golf course than a private golf club. Where is the exclusivity, which was the point of forming the club?

What you are also missing is club members understand when another member beats them to a vacation or a tee time. It is one thing if the member makes personal use of the vacation time or the tee time; that is the whole purpose of the club. The objection is when the vacation time or tee time slot is used by non-club members -- for profit or not does not make any difference. A "few" non-owner vacations or tee times can be a Club member's privilege, if that is what the Club decides.

That is what Club Wyndham has decided with the Owner Priority Booking exclusive dates.

Sometimes I don't agree with you but this time I have to acknowledge you did a great job with this post.
 
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VacationForever

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Just a data point on how much WM credits are going for. I just closed on a WM purchase in August. Purchase price was $7,500 for 35K credits, September anniversary and fully loaded with 70K in August. When I took possession of the contract and started paying MF in September, I had 105K available and 35K available to borrow. Based on my Math, after accounting for the value of the available credits, my cost was only 6 cents per point, on a stripped contract. I bought it from one of the WM trusted brokers on wmowners.

I also got my friend to buy a resale contract. $7,500 for 35K credits, 55K available and has a March anniversary date. My calculation is that it will come up to about 12 cents per point on a stripped contract. His contract will close probably in November. I also got him to buy from a WM trusted broker on wmowners.

Both our goals are to spend a month at WM Oceanside in the summer.
 
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