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Another school shooting today

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Carolinian

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Good point. The principal was given nothing to defend her students with, not even a bow and arrow or pepper mace.

In the recent mall shooting, the gunman murdered two people but then a civilian with a concealed carry permit came up and drew a pistol on him, so the gunman shot himself and ended the rampage.

Gun control ideas can kill more people than they save, and ''gun free zones'' like this school are a prime example.


Read an interesting statistic today:

EVERY single "mass shooting" since 1950 that has involved 3 or more fatalities, has been in a "gun free zone", with one exception, the shooting of Rep. Giffords in Tucson, AZ.

That is pretty astounding, IMO, these so called "gun free zones" are nothing more than mass murderer enabling zones. For the past 70 years this law obviously has done nothing to protect law abiding people. As if a mass murderer is going to change his mind because he saw a no guns allowed sign.

Gun free zones ensure law abiding citizens become helpless victims, while would-be mass shooters have defensless targets.

IMO, If a place is to be designated a gun free zone, then it is the obligation of the facility to have an armed professional protecting the defenseless citizens.... If they are unable to provide this then law abiding citizens who are already issued carry permits by their state police should be permitted to carry them for their protection and the protection of others. They are already trusted to carry them on our streets, our bowling alleys, and our restaraunts, etc.

I heard about defenseless school staff lunging at the shooter and sacrificing themselves to try to stop this madman, and about a teacher who hid her students in a closet and waited for the gunmen helplessly to tell him her kids were in the gym and then only to feel his wrath. Why should she not be permitted to have a firearm to protect herself and blast this shooter away when he walks through her classroom door? If you dont want our teachers armed what about at the very least letting the principle and administrators have ability to protect our schools. You are already trusting your kids lives and minds to her whether you realize it or not.
 

Passepartout

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Susan, thank you for your thoughts in post #388. I have never seen any thread that has been allowed to wander into so many banned and/or contentious issues. My personal feeling is that we have pretty well plowed all this field for everything it can produce.

I say enough is enough. Move on. Close the thread. Nothing we can say here will convince anyone on any side of the issues at hand that they oughtta change their mind. Just not gonna happen.

I will continue to read more, but don't expect that I can add anything constructive to the discussion.

Jim
 

Carolinian

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Unfortunately, it wasn't used on criminals this time.

Too bad the principal was not supplied with one of those, as if so there would likely have been a different outcome. Even a Glock might have done the trick.
 
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SueDonJ

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Read an interesting statistic today:

EVERY single "mass shooting" since 1950 that has involved 3 or more fatalities, has been in a "gun free zone", with one exception, the shooting of Rep. Giffords in Tucson, AZ.

That is pretty astounding, IMO, these so called "gun free zones" are nothing more than mass murderer enabling zones. For the past 70 years this law obviously has done nothing to protect law abiding people. As if a mass murderer is going to change his mind because he saw a no guns allowed sign.

Gun free zones ensure law abiding citizens become helpless victims, while would-be mass shooters have defensless targets.

IMO, If a place is to be designated a gun free zone, then it is the obligation of the facility to have an armed professional protecting the defenseless citizens.... If they are unable to provide this then law abiding citizens who are already issued carry permits by their state police should be permitted to carry them for their protection and the protection of others. They are already trusted to carry them on our streets, our bowling alleys, and our restaraunts, etc.

I heard about defenseless school staff lunging at the shooter and sacrificing themselves to try to stop this madman, and about a teacher who hid her students in a closet and waited for the gunmen helplessly to tell him her kids were in the gym and then only to feel his wrath. Why should she not be permitted to have a firearm to protect herself and blast this shooter away when he walks through her classroom door? If you dont want our teachers armed what about at the very least letting the principle and administrators have ability to protect our schools. You are already trusting your kids lives and minds to her whether you realize it or not.

I'm not in favor of our educators being armed and charged with protecting our children by gunfire, because I think that our educators are charged enough already with the task of nurturing our children. There's a dichotomy between nurturing and armed defense that I can't reconcile. Others may be able to, but I'm not.

BUT I am in favor of trained and armed police or civilian protectors being onsite at every one of our schools. Not any old citizen who's licensed to carry and looking for something to do, though, and not a standard police officer who maybe hasn't had specialized training and education in the psyche of children. So it will take money, a lot of it, to make sure such a program would be implemented correctly. We'd have to commit to it, to ensure that our taxpayer dollars wouldn't be pulled from it when we become complacent about all the days that go by without school shootings.
 

Beaglemom3

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Not sure where we stop on this. It can happen anywhere, any time in any venue. Schools and children make it all that more heinous.

I wonder how many teachers, theatre ushers-managers, mall cops, college campus police, hospital floor nurses, libararians, concert hall managers, bus drivers, etc. want to carry a firearm to work or be issued one at work ?

Maybe going back to source and stopping it there would be more productive.
 
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siesta

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BUT I am in favor of trained and armed police or civilian protectors being onsite at every one of our schools..
suedonj, unfortunately more of your fairytale feel good ideas. You do realize most city and schhol budgets are already strapped for cash. Many schools in low income areas can barely afford proper supplies. I have volunteered in public schools on the south side of chicago who cant afford to fix broken windows and board them up, and barely have funds for students.

Many schools in well to do areas can afford to pay a full time armed person $40k a year to protect the school, but what about the places that cant?

Im not saying allow every staffmember, janitor, etc to carry a gun in school. But at least let tthe top administrators who are already charged with overseeing safety in school to protect our kids, like principles, etc.

These top folks should train for these events just like fire drills.

Your "solution" to fund underpriveledged schools with a national tax to supply guards is surprisingly illogical. Why spend more money when an armed administrator is the solution?
 
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easyrider

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Moderator Note:

I think Brian has given much leeway in this thread and I'm grateful that he allowed us to stray as far into topics that are normally off-limits on TUG. But there are certain few hot-button phrases recently introduced that are being used for no other reason but to insult, and I'm sure nobody is surprised to learn that for the first time since it began certain posts in the thread have been reported. Please, continue to try to approach this discussion without veering off into the polarizing topics of politics and religion, otherwise it's inevitable that the thread will have to be closed. Thanks.


It is really difficult to discuss gun regulations, mass school shootings and mental health with out bringing in the social aspects that include politics, religion or ideas that others disagree with.

I have read every post and find it very interesting. I am begining to understand the fear many have of guns and why they would like bans or more regulations. I would think that those who favor these regulations may have an understanding of why those that oppose more regulation or bans feel if they read the opposing views.

I would also point out that this is a very tame discussion of a very hot topic and those that choose to read it should do so knowing that others have brought up valid points they will never agree with. If you dont want to participate try not to force others not to. Other forums discussing this topic that include the politics and other ideas are pretty much split like we are at tug. ;)

Bill
 

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tis the last time im pruning threads by deleting posts....next stop...bantown.
 

geoand

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Arming the teachers and principals at schools may not be something that the teachers and principals want. If they are forced to do so, it could lead to a loss of very good teachers and or administrators.
 

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geoand

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suedonj, unfortunately more of your fairytale feel good ideas.

Your "solution" to fund underpriveledged schools with a national tax to supply guards is surprisingly illogical. Why spend more money when an armed administrator is the solution?

Can't we have a discussion without using terms such as "more fairytale feel good ideas?" The message could have been "I don''t agree with what you are proposing and here are the reasons why."

The second paragraph could have been worded "Your solution to fund underprivileged schools with a national tax to supply guards would certainly be quite expensive for the individual tax payer.

I have already stated that arming of the staff would pose problems because I think the majority of staff would refuse.
 

Carolinian

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Here is another interesting article looking at the practicalities of lots of suggestions:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...le-we-can-do-to-prevent-another-massacre.html

For those whose tunnel vision is focused on guns, not only is the recent spate of mass stabbings in Chinese schools somthing to consider, but so is the fact that the biggest mass killing at a school in the US was perpetrated in 1928 . . . with a car bomb.

And even with this killer, can anyone say with a straight face that the mere presence of a gun or guns does anything to create a mindset of mass murder more than constantly playing violent video games which glorify shooting and killing representations of people? Why is there not more talk of clamping down on these violent video games? The mentally ill cannot now buy guns. At the very least should they not be banned from violent video games?
 
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Carolinian

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siesta

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not surprisingly that is a press conference sponsored by the Brady Campaign, formerly known as Handgun Control, Inc., the number 1 anti gun group in the country, and who strongly advocated a complete handgun ban for all civilians, saying they were unnecessary and greatly contributed to crime. Now because the majority of America thinks thats unreasonable and the US Supreme Court thinks thats unconstitutional they have shifted to "assault weapons" that contribute to 1 to 7 percent of violent crimes, and even less murders.

"In 2009, there were 13,636 murders. Guns were used to murder 9,146 people. Hands and feet were used to murder 801 people. Blunt objects were used to murder 611 people. Rifles were used to murder 348 people, and that is all rifles, of which assault rifles are only a small fraction."

So the solution to our problems is to ban a weapon that results in a 100 to 200 deaths a year?
 
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Beaglemom3

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Reading all these posts has helped me to realize that this really is a multi-faceted problem with some of the following components, IMHO:

In no particular order....

1. Easy access, in some states, to semi-automatic assault type weapons.

2. Untreated, undertreated, overtreated, misdiagnosed or underdiagnosed mental illnesses, personality disorders (DSM-IVs) etc. who have access to #1.

3. In a very small part, videos games for those who are included in #2.
Those who may not be able to separate fact from fiction.

4. Media over-hype: Attracting those who wish to be "noticed" and/or "remembered" (#2 Group).

5. Lacking formative structure /weak formative structure/environment.
 
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Tia

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It takes parents, relatives, teachers, coaches, friend parents, day care providers, counselors etc. to help kids make it successfully......better?

Really didn't know there was a book, have not read it.




As to that ''it takes a village'' book, anyone who read it figured out that the author was the village idiot.
.
 

Beefnot

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not surprisingly that is a press conference sponsored by the Brady Campaign, formerly known as Handgun Control, Inc., the number 1 anti gun group in the country, and who strongly advocated a complete handgun ban for all civilians, saying they were unnecessary and greatly contributed to crime. Now because the majority of America thinks thats unreasonable and the US Supreme Court thinks thats unconstitutional they have shifted to "assault weapons" that contribute to 1 to 7 percent of violent crimes, and even less murders.

"In 2009, there were 13,636 murders. Guns were used to murder 9,146 people. Hands and feet were used to murder 801 people. Blunt objects were used to murder 611 people. Rifles were used to murder 348 people, and that is all rifles, of which assault rifles are only a small fraction."

So the solution to our problems is to ban a weapon that results in a 100 to 200 deaths a year?

If banning assault weapons with high capacity magazines and selective fire could produce 1 to 7 percent fewer incidents and/or fewer deaths, then perhaps it's not a bad thing. The gun enthusiasts could still use their other rifles to hunt and everyone remains happy, no?
 

Beaglemom3

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It takes parents, relatives, teachers, coaches, friend parents, day care providers, counselors etc. to help kids make it successfully......better?

Really didn't know there was a book, have not read it.

Tia, here's some info:

Wellesley College graduate, Yale Law School graduate, the former First Lady of the United States, Former Senator from New York, the current Secretary of State and the Mother of a daughter, Hillary Rodham Clinton, is the author.
 
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Carolinian

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If banning assault weapons with high capacity magazines and selective fire could produce 1 to 7 percent fewer incidents and/or fewer deaths, then perhaps it's not a bad thing. The gun enthusiasts could still use their other rifles to hunt and everyone remains happy, no?

Banning something responsible for 200 deaths a year in a country the size of the US? Isn't that overkill? Swatting a gnat with a sledgehammer?
 

Beaglemom3

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If banning assault weapons with high capacity magazines and selective fire could produce 1 to 7 percent fewer incidents and/or fewer deaths, then perhaps it's not a bad thing. The gun enthusiasts could still use their other rifles to hunt and everyone remains happy, no?

Sounds reasonable and a good start.
 

siesta

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If banning assault weapons with high capacity magazines and selective fire could produce 1 to 7 percent fewer incidents and/or fewer deaths, then perhaps it's not a bad thing. The gun enthusiasts could still use their other rifles to hunt and everyone remains happy, no?
assault weapons and high capacity magazines WERE banned in this country from 1994-2004, so we dont have to guess if it works or not, it was determined to have no measureable effect on crime. The fact is, those weapons were used so far and few between in crime that a sweeping ban had no relative effect.

Here is an excerpt to an article from just a month before the ban expired:


The federal assault-weapons ban, scheduled to expire in September, is not responsible for the nation’s steady decline in gun-related violence and its renewal likely will achieve little, according to an independent study commissioned by the National Institute of Justice (NIJ).
“We cannot clearly credit the ban with any of the nation’s recent drop in gun violence. And, indeed, there has been no discernible reduction in the lethality and injuriousness of gun violence,” said the unreleased NIJ report, written by Christopher Koper, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania.
“It is thus premature to make definitive assessments of the ban’s impact on gun violence. Should it be renewed, the ban’s effects on gun violence are likely to be small at best and perhaps too small for reliable measurement,” said the report, a copy of which was obtained by The Washington Times.
The report also noted that assault weapons were “rarely used in gun crimes even before the ban.”


Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/aug/16/20040816-114754-1427r/#ixzz2FRCusTRX

---------------

Beefnot, also more importantly... When the ban was allowed to expire, violence and murder rates by guns continued to drop, proving even further thhose weapons did not increase crime rates
 
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Beefnot

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Banning something responsible for 200 deaths a year in a country the size of the US? Isn't that overkill? Swatting a gnat with a sledgehammer?

Depends on one's perspective I suppose. Personally, I find it to be responsible, not overkill, though I would envision it to be accompanied by additional measures. Things like a national database, automatic declination referrals to law enforcement, mandatory gun training, psychological evaluations, restrictions on ownership if felons or unstable individuals live on the premises, et al. I don't have the "right" answer for what I would envision, but that's the purpose of a national debate.
 

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Sounds reasonable and a good start.

The last part of the phrase is what creates the problem for defenders of the 2nd Amendment. It is the camel's nose under the tent for a group of people that would probably ban everything down to BB guns if they could. It is a slippery slope if a line is not drawn in the sand and defended. That is also true of 1st Amendment rights as well.

I have long been a critic of the NRA and the way it makes endorsements (too much insider baseball and pandering to incumbents), but I suspect some of the more strategically efficient 2nd Amendment groups like GOA must be saying ''I told you so'' over several weak-sister wishy-washy type Senators that NRA had endorsed having gone south on them.
 
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