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Another school shooting today

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siesta

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Remember the Marlboro Man?

Here's how Bushmaster does it:
i see the point your trying to make but its not exclusive to guns.

We have all heard how automobiles kill significantly more people then guns, and you'll hear people say they are accidents not designed to kill like guns. Consider this:

"According to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control, more Americans aged five to 34 are killed in motor vehicle crashes than from any other single cause"

And for everyone else its second only to tobacco, which is the leading cause of death in this country.

Now the number 1 common factor in automobile related deaths is what... High rates of speed. Everyones car goes over 100mph, most even going 130+, but the highest speed limits in this country are 65 and 75 mph.


If we limited the speed of cars that would surely save more lives then guns take annually.

And conan, why arent you posting pictures of corvettes and other fast cars which advertise their speed and appeal to the "macho men" surely if saving lives is your goal, this is an even more effective way strictly by the numbers.

Surely the car advertisements showing vehicles top speeds of over 200mph are just as reckless, if not more??
 
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easyrider

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While gun violence kills an estimated 10,400 people in the USA , drunk drivers kill an estimated 13,000. There are over 27,000 perscription drug overdoses every year. There are over 1.3 million abortions per year. This is from the C.D.C.

In the group of people killed by guns only a small portion are kids.

In the group of people killed by drunk driver a good portion are kids or young adults.

In the group with accidental over dose most are kids.

In the group of abortion all are kids.

Dogs kill about 30 kids a year. Should people that have children be allowed to have a dog ?

Bill
 
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Conan

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This discussion has seriously degenerated, and I regret being part of it.
 
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Conan

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This discussion has seriously degenerated, and I regret being part of it.
 
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SueDonJ

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i see the point your trying to make but its not exclusive to guns.

We have all heard how automobiles kill significantly more people then guns, and you'll hear people say they are accidents not designed to kill like guns. Consider this:

"According to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control, more Americans aged five to 34 are killed in motor vehicle crashes than from any other single cause"

And for everyone else its second only to tobacco, which is the leading cause of death in this country.

Now the number 1 common factor in automobile related deaths is what... High rates of speed. Everyones car goes over 100mph, most even going 130+, but the highest speed limits in this country are 65 and 75 mph.


If we limited the speed of cars that would surely save more lives then guns take annually.

And conan, why arent you posting pictures of corvettes and other fast cars which advertise their speed and appeal to the "macho men" surely if saving lives is your goal, this is an even more effective way strictly by the numbers.

Surely the car advertisements showing vehicles top speeds of over 200mph are just as reckless, if not more??

While gun violence kills an estimated 10,400 people in the USA , drunk drivers kill an estimated 13,000. There are over 27,000 perscription drug overdoses every year. There are over 1.3 million abortions per year. This is from the C.D.C.

In the group of people killed by guns only a small portion are kids.

In the group of people killed by drunk driver a good portion are kids or young adults.

In the group with accidental over dose most are kids.

In the group of abortion all are kids.

Dogs kill about 30 kids a year. Should people that have children be allowed to have a dog ?

Bill

Why bring relativity to the party? If you want to start a discussion about drunk driving I'm sure lots of us would talk about it with you. Drug abuse? Sure, that's another societal problem we can talk about. Fast cars? Okay. Whatever.

But why bring those topics here? Why try to rationalize the sacrifice of innocent victims of gun violence by saying that more deaths are caused by other means? Are we supposed to be okay with a certain number of victims of gun violence? I don't understand this tactic at all. We're talking about our culture of gun violence here and IMO the goal should be to lessen the number of innocent victims, not compare it to other means so as to make it somehow acceptable.
 
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SueDonJ

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You'd think this was a joke, but it's a real product (not that it would have helped these 20). ...

It's all just so sad.
 

easyrider

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Why bring relativity to the party? If you want to start a discussion about drunk driving I'm sure lots of us would talk about it with you. Drug abuse? Sure, that's another societal problem we can talk about. Fast cars? Okay. Whatever.

But why bring those topics here? Why try to rationalize the sacrifice of innocent victims of gun violence by saying that more deaths are caused by other means? Are we supposed to be okay with a certain number of victims of gun violence? I don't understand this tactic at all. We're talking about our culture of gun violence here and IMO the goal should be to lessen the number of innocent victims, not compare it to other means so as to make it somehow acceptable.

Wouldn't these other groups qualify as innocent victims ? They are larger groups of victims and their deaths are easier to prevent. If it was a bus with 50 kids killed because of negligence would you feel different than if they were shot ?
Yes and No, because those that want gun regulation are using this tradegy to further their agendas.

Bill
 

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Comparing gun deaths to automobile deaths is a poor argument at best and actually, nonsensical.

Automobiles have a primary function, however, guns have just about one or two, both injurious.

From the Yuma Sun, "Cars, on the other hand were not developed to harm humans. Therefore, they can be used for their original purpose without endangering anybody."



Read more: http://www.yumasun.com/articles/military-80564-served-order.html#ixzz2FKquXnbz
 
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geoand

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I feel like I'm being unfairly misunderstood here in order to bolster arguments against things that I'm not saying. It's like some of you are arguing with the voices in your heads that are telling you some perverted version of the things I'm saying, instead of the actual words I'm saying!

Yes, ideally my utopia would be a total gun-free America. But I've said umpteen times in this thread that I'm certain we'll never have a total gun ban, basically the same as saying that my utopia will never be a reality. Instead I'm looking for compromise that proves that we are all willing to do whatever is necessary to keep guns out of the wrong hands, or at least as much as is possible to try to reach that goal. The way I see it, the only responsible gun owners are the ones who would also be in favor of that goal.

Never meant to point a finger at you. I should have worded it better. I know many want to see a better way of controlling guns. I am one of those. Yes, I know there are lawful uses for guns and lawful gun owners. I just want to find a way to keep guns out of the hands of people who should never have them.
 
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Ridewithme38

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I don't get why we can't just ban all guns...If there are no more new guns coming into america and we confiscate any we see, even with a mythical 3 million guns in owners hands, within 30 years, there won't be a working gun left...

IMO, even with reloaders available, just banning bullets would work equally well, if it costs hundreds of dollars per bullet on the black market, scum will be much less likely to waste them by using them on people, or 'hunting' or shooting at the range
 

easyrider

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Comparing gun deaths to automobile deaths is a poor argument at best and actually, nonsensical.

Automobiles have a primary function, however, guns have just about one or two, both injurious.

This is your opinion and I know others feel the same

What makes this more tragic than other types of killings is the media attention and the people using this recent tragedy as an opportunity to furter their agenda.

Bill
 

TUGBrian

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Your idea is a step in the right direction. I will take the liberty to modify it to read "should have triggered an alert so that he is placed under surveillance and that he is interviewed along with those who know him - friends, family, etc."

Personally, this is the first idea that I have seen that could have a positive impact without infringing upon anyone's rights.

I agree, i think its a fabulous idea.
 

geoand

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now this is actually productive talk.

People that are legally denied firearms should be visited by authorities, they should inform the person why they were denied, and if they were wrongfully denied that should be corrected so the person can make their purchase.

If they were rightfully denied, i.e. convicted felon, mental patient in past 5 years, convicted of domestic abuse, narcotics addict etc (you can see all the requirements on ATF form 4473) they should be informed why they were denied and instructed that further attempts to gain a weapon will be met with the full extent of the law. And until they go through the appropriate channels and get their name legally cleared, they will not be permittted to apply for a gun again without facing prosecution.

If there is probable cause to monitor the person after that then so be it, as long as it follows the law of the land.

I think it should include watching the person for a period of time - at least a month. There is nothing wrong IMO to being watched. We need to trust our leo's judgement on when further surveillance is needed. I have a hunch that most folks who are denied know they will be denied. It won't solve the problem, but it is a method that to me is not intrusive and may perhaps prevent a violent crime.

Heck, folks that apply for government jobs have a background check done on them.
 

SueDonJ

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This is your opinion and I know others feel the same

What makes this more tragic than other types of killings is the media attention and the people using this recent tragedy as an opportunity to furter their agenda.

Bill

"Further their agenda." This is pure rhetoric, meant to incite but actually having no meaning at all. I've asked twice in this thread and you haven't answered it yet - if the "agenda" is a reasonable conversation about methods of curbing gun violence, why is an act of gun violence the wrong catalyst for that conversation? If episodes of gun violence happen every day and we are not supposed to bring up the conversation in the aftermath of such episodes, when will we be able to ask?
 
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zinger1457

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Well according to the FBI, gun ownership has risen dramatically, and violent crime has fallen to 35 year lows. There are more people today that can legally carry a firearm on the street then ever before with concealed carry laws, yet violent crime has plummetted, quite the opposite effect the anti gunners predicted (they said it would be wild west all over again)The proof is in the pudding: arming law abiding citizens does NOT increase violent crime.

The FBI statistics (http://www.fbi.gov/) show that the average number of homicides by firearms rose between 2000-2007 and has dropped slightly every year since. The number of homicides by firearms in 2000 (8661) is almost the same as 2011 (8583). The average number of homicides by firearms between 2000-2011 was 9384 per year, so the 2011 numbers are hardly a plummet. Of these homicides by firearms the number of justified homicides (by firearms) by civilians has remained consistently around 200 per year, about 2% of the total.
 

SueDonJ

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Wouldn't these other groups qualify as innocent victims ? They are larger groups of victims and their deaths are easier to prevent. If it was a bus with 50 kids killed because of negligence would you feel different than if they were shot ?
Yes and No, because those that want gun regulation are using this tradegy to further their agendas.

Bill

Conversations about drunk driving occur after drunk driving episodes happen. Conversations about public transportation accidents happen after the accidents. Conversations about cribs that babies die in happen after those babies die. Conversations about terrorist actions take place after terrorist acts. And on and on and on and on ...

What, would you have us talk about mass shootings after airplane crashes?

How did we ever get to this place where an agenda for the betterment of society is a bad thing? Like I said before, it's all so sad.
 

hypnotiq

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I'm conflicted about the media and not just as it acts during gun-related stories. The sensationalism is obscene but I understand the single focus when something as horrendous as a mass shooting happens. People want to know what's happening and our 24-hour news channels are designed that way specifically so that we can get the story no matter what time we tune in. It's the rush to be first that is most obscene and with this story in particular, there were so many incorrect "facts" reported throughout the day Friday that we can all say the media failed miserably. That's certainly another facet of this overall discussion.

About putting a shooter's face and name out there for public consumption? For one thing I think it's important for us to put a face and name to our deviants because it helps us to realize that these criminals are in our midst, that we all should be aware of our surroundings. The fact is, none of us are so secure that we can say truthfully anymore, "... but you'd never expect it to happen here." The other thing about limiting the media's ability to report, though, is that the First Amendment is as important as any of the others. If the reports foster copy-cats, so be it. The way to prevent copy-cats is to focus on the means by which they may act, not their desire for infamy.

The one thing the press did Friday which I find absolutely abhorrent and which I think should be completely eradicated is, asking permission from the parents and then sticking microphones in the faces of the children who were witnesses. My god, that was reprehensible. In that moment, in that situation, no parent could be expected to be thinking completely rationally. The fact that the press didn't hesitate one bit to infringe on those children's well-being is despicable.

I agree its a double edge sword and there is no easy answer. I also find the interviewing of the children involved deplorable.

However, the two observations I made are just a start. Can anyone legitimately defend either of those, especially the first?

I'm father of a 3yo daughter and this hits very close to home for me, since she will be in school in a couple of years.

I'm also a gun owner, a hunter, and believe in the right to protect my own family.

I'll participate in a conversation about gun control that doesn't involve 100% ban (we've been over the reasons why). However, I want other investments into mental health as well. I'd also like to see guidelines on media and what they are and are not allowed to do (like interviewing those children).

For example, I think alerts being triggered based on certain purchases/behavior are great.
 

PStreet1

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I think horrible things like this bring out "Magical Thinking" in many of us: we see the horror and react with what seems to us to be a simple solution, and really believe that will solve the problem. Unfortunately, those simple solutions rarely, if ever, solve the problem they were intended to solve, and they often create unintended consequences.

This article by Jim Geraghty is the most rational look at the situation I have seen:

Grappling With It All by Jim Geraghty in Morning Jolt, Dec. 17, 2012

So, when something awful happens — and the mass murder of kindergarteners is about as awful as it gets — you're going to want to stay off Twitter, and probably the Internet entirely.

We know the coming days will see a lot of cries for gun control, even though many of those proposals would not have prevented this most abominable of massacres. The guns were purchased legally by the gunman's mother, and the shooter took/stole his mother's legally purchased firearms. He was turned down when he tried to purchase a rifle several days before the shooting. This won't change the arguments of the advocates very much, though. After the Virginia Tech shooting, Mayor Bloomberg and various other gun-control advocates kept saying that the proper response was to "close the gun-show loophole" — even though the shooter did not get his weapons at a gun show.

The one thing the gun-control people claim is that they're not gun grabbers, and they don't want to literally ban every gun in the US.

But . . . banning every gun in the US is the only possible gun-control measure that could plausibly achieve the results they seek. If there are any guns in the country, at all, presumably criminals will ignore laws against possessing them (as they currently ignore such laws) and also ignore laws against, well, shooting people with guns (several statutes cover this, pretty exhaustively, and yet they still ignore it).

So all gun control laws are aimed, essentially, at the one class of persons who have already demonstrated their intent to ignore gun laws. The laws are aimed at the very people who don't obey them, but it is taken as an article of faith that if you just disarm the people who aren't breaking the law, for some reason the criminally-minded will follow their lead.

Well, that's absurd, obviously. The only way that a criminal who is determined to get a gun and use it for a criminal purpose will not have a gun is if there are literally no guns to be had-- no guns to be stolen, no guns to be bought off Craigslist, no guns, period.

Still, we find ourselves with horrific news-dominating murder sprees about every six months or so, and the sense that this is "just the world we live in" or "the price of a free society" are ringing rather hollow.

The one gun-control proposal I'm starting to think about is the argument about extended clips. The standard version of the Glock, the most popular handgun in America, has 17 rounds in its magazine. I believe in a near-universal right to carry arms for self-defense, but does anyone feel their ability to defend themselves — the guy working the midnight shift in a convenience store, the coed walking home alone, the senior citizen in a bad neighborhood — depends upon the ability to fire more than 17 rounds without pausing to reload?

Under the Assault Weapons Ban that expired in 2004, magazines were limited to 10 rounds. Almost all of the most notorious mass killers in recent years — Fort Hood, Virginia Tech, Columbine, Tucson, the Long Island Rail Road — used guns with 15-round clips or more. (The Colorado movie theater shooter had a 100-round magazine that jammed.)

Of course, an extended-clip ban wouldn't end mass shootings. But it would mean that every maniac on a killing spree would have to pause to reload at some earlier point than some past shooters have, perhaps giving other victims a better chance to overpower him or escape.

But in the end, we're still left with the bigger problem: young men who want to kill as many people as possible.

We have quite the well-established profile by now, don't we? Young men alienated from their peers and society at large. They don't have many friends; they don't have girlfriends; they feel denied some sort of recognition or appreciation they deserve. They respond to this with an emotion so far beyond the garden-variety frustration, depression, or anger that it's hard to comprehend. Oftentimes they leave some sort of note or e-mail detailing their grievances against the world. They decide that they're going to become famous and well-known in death in the way they never could achieve in life — and then a world that never seemed to care about their troubles or how they felt will spend a lot of time thinking about them.

I'm pretty convinced that the media coverage fuels these impulses in these young men, disturbed and full of rage and desperately craving some recognition of them, their potential, their pain.

John Tabin spotlighted this assessment from a forensic psychiatrist:

If you don't want to propagate more mass murders . . .

Don't start the story with sirens blaring.

Don't have photographs of the killer.

Don't make this 24/7 coverage.

Do everything you can not to make the body count the lead story.

Not to make the killer some kind of anti-hero.

Do localize this story to the affected community and as boring as possible in every other market.

And of course, each one seems to spur copycats.

A northern Indiana man who allegedly threatened to "kill as many people as he could" at an elementary school near his home was arrested by officers who later found 47 guns and ammunition hidden throughout his home.

Von. I. Meyer, 60, of Cedar Lake, was arrested Saturday after prosecutors filed formal charges of felony intimidation, domestic battery and resisting law enforcement against him. He was being held Sunday without bond at the Lake County Jail, pending an initial hearing on the charges, police said in a statement.

Cedar Lake Police officers were called to Meyer's home early Friday after he allegedly threatened to set his wife on fire once she fell asleep, the statement said.

Meyer also threatened to enter nearby Jane Ball Elementary School "and kill as many people as he could before police could stop him," the statement said. Meyer's home is less than 1,000 feet from the school and linked to it by trails and paths through a wooded area, police said.

Again and again:

A Bartlesville High School student is in custody on charges he plotted to bomb and shoot students at the campus auditorium on the same day that 28 people were shot and killed at an elementary school in Connecticut.

Police arrested 18-year-old Sammie Eaglebear Chavez at about 4:30 a.m. Friday after learning of the alleged plot Thursday.

An arrest affidavit says Chavez tried to convince other students to help him lure students into the auditorium, chain the doors shut and start shooting. The Tulsa World reports that authorities say Chavez threatened to kill students who didn't help.

The Bartlesville Examiner-Enterprise reports Chavez planned to detonate bombs at the doors as police arrived.

It feels like we're in a sickening game of "can you top this" by evil people. "You shoot up a politicians' event, I'll shoot up a movie theater." "You shoot up a movie theater, I'll shoot up a kindergarten." Each twisted soul is upping the ante for the next to really shock and horrify us — a senior-citizens' center? A nursery school? A neonatal intensive care unit?

The usual argument on this point is "we need to ramp up our mental-health efforts," but that's easier said than done. And what we're really talking about is involuntary detainment and observation of people if they are deemed threatening by "odd behavior." If you think seeing therapy and mental-health treatment is stigmatized now, wait until the government can easily access your mental-health records without your consent to determine if you're a threat to society.

You'll hear an argument about arming teachers, a solution that has its own problems, among them that the security at any given school will depend upon A) teachers willing to carry weapons in their classrooms and B) their ability to control a firearm at all times. The first time a teacher forgets and leaves their gun where a student can touch it, that whole policy will become the newest scapegoat.

I'm not sure that school security is really the right focus, because most schools, with their press-the-buzzer-to-enter, check in at the front office, closed-circuit television cameras, and so on, are not built to stop a determined murderer with multiple guns. Few facilities in our country are. And to be honest, I'm not quite sure I want to rearrange every school in America to be a fortress, designed to stop a determined murderer with multiple guns; the result would be the mass "TSA-ization" of American life.

Finally, over on Slate I saw this comment :

As Slate's David Plotz wrote in an email this morning, "If you stigmatize the ownership and use of guns for most recreational uses—and in particular the ownership of handguns and non hunting weapons—there will be less presence of them in the culture, less use of them, gradually fewer and fewer of them in society, less tolerance for people talking about them and playing with them, and as that happens, guns will become less present, less accessible, less embedded in American society and that gun crime will fall accordingly . . . It is not a single legislative change or even an overnight cultural change. It is a gradual process."

We already have plenty of places in America where gun ownership is stigmatized: any reasonably liberal community or workplace, university campuses, schools, the Slate offices, and so on. Of course, because the culture of those locations so strongly stigmatizes gun ownership, the malicious among us know that they will never encounter armed opposition when they arrive to perpetuate their mayhem. (You notice nobody ever tries to rob NRA Headquarters.) The anti-gun perspective that so many of our friends on the Left showcase as an example of their enlightenment and nobility also, in fact, sends a signal to the evil of the world that they will make comparably easy targets.

ADDENDUM: Sorry, nothing was funny today. Maybe tomorrow will be different.

from National Review.
 

ace2000

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The FBI statistics (http://www.fbi.gov/) show that the average number of homicides by firearms rose between 2000-2007 and has dropped slightly every year since. The number of homicides by firearms in 2000 (8661) is almost the same as 2011 (8583). The average number of homicides by firearms between 2000-2011 was 9384 per year, so the 2011 numbers are hardly a plummet. Of these homicides by firearms the number of justified homicides (by firearms) by civilians has remained consistently around 200 per year, about 2% of the total.

Your link takes you to the main fbi page and doesn't support your statistics. Do you have a link to the actual data you've provided?

Everything I've seen, including the stats that were provided earlier indicate the peak was during the '90s.

http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/gun-violence/welcome.htm
 

Conan

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[Deleted by me]

This discussion has seriously degenerated, and I regret being part of it.
 
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kenie

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In Canada we "had" a National Firearms Registry because of a mass shooting at a university in Montreal in 1989. 14 women were killed. Our current government recently abolished it and destroyed the records... It didn't work.

Handguns are different and have been registered since the 30's and still are. Certain rifles are restricted or prohibited. I have a restricted firearms licence which allows me to purchase and possess handguns and long guns.
I had to take a 2 part course taught by a licenced instructor, in my case he was a retired RCMP officer. I believe they are taught to evaluate the students to some extent.
If I wish to purchase ammo, powder, etc, I need to show my ID card at the store.
If I own a handgun, I must belong to a licenced range and can only transport it in a secure, locked case in my trunk, and only from my residence to the range. In my house all guns must be stored securely. I have a safe and trigger locks. Guns and ammo stored seperately. Guns also have magazine size restrictions.
One of the main rallying calls against our Registry was that it punished the law-abiding gun owners and did nothing to fight illegal use of guns.
I don't see the need for certain types of guns such as the Bushmaster and don't see a problem having education, licencing and background checks be a part of buying and owning weapons.
 
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zinger1457

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Your link takes you to the main fbi page and doesn't support your statistics. Do you have a link to the actual data you've provided?

Everything I've seen, including the stats that were provided earlier indicate the peak was during the '90s.

http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/gun-violence/welcome.htm

You need to go through the FBI web page crime statistics section and there are crime statistics listed by year, some tables group data in 5 year increments. It takes some researching, it's not all in one nice table.

This is some of the data I used:

Homicide data by weapons from 2001-2005 (http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_07.html)

Homicide data by weapons from 2007-2011 (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8)
 

Tia

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Any idea of who we/me/you could submit this suggestion to for consideration for partial solution?

Just back home and seems Dr Phil today is on the subject ' scared of your son' , he is going to give tips re what you need to do as a parent if you need to watch for. On guest a man his 25 yo son is in jail for a shooting. Maybe check his website for more if interested. Apparently the subject continues tomorrow.

now this is actually productive talk.

People that are legally denied firearms should be visited by authorities, they should inform the person why they were denied, and if they were wrongfully denied that should be corrected so the person can make their purchase.

If they were rightfully denied, i.e. convicted felon, mental patient in past 5 years, convicted of domestic abuse, narcotics addict etc (you can see all the requirements on ATF form 4473) they should be informed why they were denied and instructed that further attempts to gain a weapon will be met with the full extent of the law. And until they go through the appropriate channels and get their name legally cleared, they will not be permittted to apply for a gun again without facing prosecution.

If there is probable cause to monitor the person after that then so be it, as long as it follows the law of the land.
 
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eal

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