[2016] Account review email [Accts. suspended]

[ronparise]

The Wyndham reservation computer has not done a good job of keeping track of where points were used from and throws them into non-existing use years at times.

Also it occasionally 'misfires' and generates points - for example this January or February I was attempting to cancel a couple of reservations near the closing time during the last evening that I could cancel before the 15 day rule was to go into effect (in other words, if I did not get them canceled that evening I was screwed and would loose the points by canceling the next morning). I attempted to cancel the two reservations several times before the computer did the cancel. The next morning I had over 1.3 million extra points in my account - each time I attempted a cancel the computer was returning points into my account but not actually making the cancellation. I called and got them removed later - but this is a example of the problems Wyndham has had with their computer system for a couple of months now.

I am not affected by these audits but certainly would have been if I had gone ahead and used those points.

Jim

I suspect that the audits are resulting in three groups of us 1) would be the folks that have a few extra points as a result of the "misfires" that you describe but never even knew what happened 2) others that saw what was happening and figured out how to make it happen over and over. And 3) guys like me with really big accounts that have an extraordinary number of extra points from multiple sources

I'm guessing that each group will be treated differently and I'm hoping that whatever happens will happen pretty soon

 

[buckor]

I suspect that the audits are resulting in three groups of us 1) would be the folks that have a few extra points as a result of the "misfires" that you describe but never even knew what happened 2) others that saw what was happening and figured out how to make it happen over and over. And 3) guys like me with really big accounts that have an extraordinary number of extra points from multiple sources

I'm guessing that each group will be treated differently and I'm hoping that whatever happens will happen pretty soon

I think you just hit the nail on the head, Ron. I have canceled reservations only to see then go to crazy credit pool end dates I've never had. Obviously, there is an issue with points accounting.

That said, those who knowingly took advantage of the situation you described should be dealt with accordingly. The question then becomes how do you separate out the deliberate manipulators from those whose accounts had the same thing happen, yet, because of the size of their accounts and number of transactions, didn't realize what was going on. All one has to do is say they didn't know what was going on....

Good post.

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[cruisin]

Cancel and rebook and upgrade does not create points. You get more reservations for the same points but not more points

For example i own a million point contract and I make a three bedroom reservation for 300000 points and I make a studio reservation for 100000 points (which leaves 600000 points in the account)

Now inside 60 days I cancel the studio and rebook it with 50000 points and I cancel the threebedroom and upgrade the studio into it.

The end result is a 50000 point reservation and 950000 points and that still adds up to a million which matches the million point contract I own. Everything is in balance

Contrast that with one of my suspended accounts where I own contracts worth 2 million points annually and I have open reservations in that account that total 50 million points.

Bottom line, cancel and rebook is not the issue. But never fear wyndham doesn't like what we do with cancel and rebooking. They will get to it sooner or later

Doesnt that prove the point. Cancel, rebook and upgrade is really no different in practice than Manhattan Club overselling its units. Actually a much worse ratio than that. In your example Almost 6 times worse than that. I am not saying its your fault at all, I would do the exact same thing if I owned Wyndham. This is Purely Wyndhams Fault! Wyndham by their own doing set up a system that does not have enough units for the points it sold, because of the booking rules. Manhattan Club sold more units than existed, Wyndham Allows Points to book more units than exist. Potatoe/Potato

 

[ronparise]

Doesnt that prove the point. Cancel, rebook and upgrade is really no different in practice than Manhattan Club overselling its units. Actually a much worse ratio than that. In your example Almost 6 times worse than that. I am not saying its your fault at all, I would do the exact same thing if I owned Wyndham. This is Purely Wyndhams Fault! Wyndham by their own doing set up a system that does not have enough units for the points it sold, because of the booking rules. Manhattan Club sold more units than existed, Wyndham Allows Points to book more units than exist. Potatoe/Potato

i suppose you are right. The end result is the same when it comes to making reservations. But that's not what triggered all the suspensions. The suspensions happened to to those of us that have too many points in reservations relative to the number of points owned

Cancel and rebook is a problem for the club it's just not the problem they are working on today

 

[ronparise]

I will add to my previous post that personally I don't have a problem with cancel and rebook. As long as there is something available somewhere in the system when one goes to make a reservation the club is not oversold. I don't see the comparison with the manhatten club.

 

[FLYNZ4]

I will add to my previous post that personally I don't have a problem with cancel and rebook. As long as there is something available somewhere in the system when one goes to make a reservation the club is not oversold. I don't see the comparison with the manhatten club.

Ron,

I do not own Wyndham... so maybe I just do not understand. From the discussion... it seems that you reserved a unit that was worth 300,000 points, and I would assume that 300,000 points were sold by the corporation for that particular week in that particular unit. You held that inventory using 300,000 points for some amount of time... resulting in the unit being unable to booked by someone else and consume 300,000 Wyn points.

Then at some point (60 days in advance)... you go through a sequence of cancelling, rebooking, cancelling, and upgrading that lets you use that same 300,000 point unit for just 50,000 points.

Unless I am missing something... it seems to me that you just created 250,000 points that are not back by inventory... which means that someone, somewhere does not have a unit to book with their points.

I am not accusing you of any wrong doing... it seems you are following the rules. However, it does seem that Wyndham, through their policies of allowing this action, is neglecting their fiduciary responsibility to its owners. It seems to me they are creating an oversupply of credits vs the supply of available inventory. I agree with Cruisin that this seems to have the same affect as selling more points than they have backed with available inventory.

Maybe I am just plain wrong about this and fail to understand. Like I said, I do not own Wyndham points.

/Jim

 

[am1]

Wyndham picks up the tab on the 250 000 points out of their allotment.

What happens when units sit empty? By no one booking them or a hurricane causes resorts to close and points to be refunded.

Ron,

I do not own Wyndham... so maybe I just do not understand. From the discussion... it seems that you reserved a unit that was worth 300,000 points, and I would assume that 300,000 points were sold by the corporation for that particular week in that particular unit. You held that inventory using 300,000 points for some amount of time... resulting in the unit being unable to booked by someone else and consume 300,000 Wyn points.

Then at some point (60 days in advance)... you go through a sequence of cancelling, rebooking, cancelling, and upgrading that lets you use that same 300,000 point unit for just 50,000 points.

Unless I am missing something... it seems to me that you just created 250,000 points that are not back by inventory... which means that someone, somewhere does not have a unit to book with their points.

I am not accusing you of any wrong doing... it seems you are following the rules. However, it does seem that Wyndham, through their policies of allowing this action, is neglecting their fiduciary responsibility to its owners. It seems to me they are creating an oversupply of credits vs the supply of available inventory. I agree with Cruisin that this seems to have the same affect as selling more points than they have backed with available inventory.

Maybe I am just plain wrong about this and fail to understand. Like I said, I do not own Wyndham points.

/Jim

 

[buckor]

Don't the VIP discount points technically come from the pool of unsold points Wyndham still owns and hasn't yet sold? If that's the case, this is nowhere near the Manhattan Club...

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[T-Dot-Traveller]

Ron,

I do not own Wyndham... so maybe I just do not understand. .....

Then at some point (60 days in advance)... you go through a sequence of cancelling, rebooking, cancelling, and upgrading that lets you use that same 300,000 point unit for just 50,000 points.

Unless I am missing something... it seems to me that you just created 250,000 points that are not back by inventory... which means that someone, somewhere does not have a unit to book with their points


/Jim

The solution in a perfect world would be for Wyndham to build more units - BUT
that cost $$$ . Selling the points makes $$$ .

I am sure that some of this is accounted by contract owners who let points expire . I am sure Wyndham knows what percent of points expire etc.
just like airline know their " float/ overbook " capacity on each route .

*******
added Oct 6 - Dear Am1 , Ron , and truthmonkey,
thank you for further elaborating on how the points are balanced in posts below
685/686/687

Where I own in Mexico it is a simpler balance . Jan -mid April ( snowbird season ) is full with lots of cold climate owners booking RTU weeks . All Mexican developers build and staff in pesos and collect MF in US Dollars -so they can afford to build for peak winter season . This leaves lots of good weather shoulder season weeks for exchangers ( fresh sales meat) and the " bonus " / pay on use only weeks owners get that are for non peak season .

.

 

[FLYNZ4]

Wyndham picks up the tab on the 250 000 points out of their allotment.

What happens when units sit empty? By no one booking them or a hurricane causes resorts to close and points to be refunded.

If in Ron's example, Wyndham expires 250,000 of their inventory of points... then that would balance the books. Thanks for the explanation.

This is not the same of a unit sitting empty. That is an example of the ownership at large choosing not to utilize their points. Yes of course, that still results in an excess of points which is not covered by inventory... but it is a choice of the ownership at large to not use the inventory... not a systematic method of purposely causing an oversupply of points.

I happen to be on a board of a timeshare condo association. There is a small supply of unsold inventory to allow for maintenance weeks where the unit is out of service, or to account for limited closures due to unforeseen events.

In any case... as long as Wyndham is expiring equivalent credits out of their inventory... then it is a valid explanation of why this isn't a problem.

/Jim

 

[truthmonkey]

It would not be an excess of points that are not covered by inventory. It is points that are covered by unused inventory. In other words, for every amount of unused points that represents the cost of a particular interval, there is an interval that sits unused. The points economy couldn't work any other way. There are resorts that have higher occupancy than others and some that are full most of the year, like Oceanside Pier. This may create the illusion that points are oversold, but the offset is Indio, for example, which sits largely empty in the hot summer.

There are not more points in the system than there are underlying intervals those points represent. Either an owner owns the points, or the developer owns the points, or CWA owns the points on behalf of its owners. Also, when an owner converts points to MF, a cruise, what have you, developer gains control over those points in exchange for the consideration given to the owner. developer ends every year with expired points that weren't used for marketing, VIP discounts, rental, etc. There will also be unused inventory representing expired developer points in addition to those representing expired owner points.

As mentioned, VIP points discounts are covered by developer owned points, on which developer is paying maintenance fees.

 

[ronparise]

Ron,

I do not own Wyndham... so maybe I just do not understand. From the discussion... it seems that you reserved a unit that was worth 300,000 points, and I would assume that 300,000 points were sold by the corporation for that particular week in that particular unit. You held that inventory using 300,000 points for some amount of time... resulting in the unit being unable to booked by someone else and consume 300,000 Wyn points.

Then at some point (60 days in advance)... you go through a sequence of cancelling, rebooking, cancelling, and upgrading that lets you use that same 300,000 point unit for just 50,000 points.

Unless I am missing something... it seems to me that you just created 250,000 points that are not back by inventory... which means that someone, somewhere does not have a unit to book with their points.

I am not accusing you of any wrong doing... it seems you are following the rules. However, it does seem that Wyndham, through their policies of allowing this action, is neglecting their fiduciary responsibility to its owners. It seems to me they are creating an oversupply of credits vs the supply of available inventory. I agree with Cruisin that this seems to have the same affect as selling more points than they have backed with available inventory.

Maybe I am just plain wrong about this and fail to understand. Like I said, I do not own Wyndham points.

/Jim

I'm not arguing with anything you say here. The cancel and rebook strategy absolutely means that there are more points chasing the available high value units than there would be otherwise. And that's a problem. But as long as there are owners that don't use their points and as long as Wyndham maintains an inventory of unsold points to offset the extra reservations the problem, if not solved, is at least managed.

What I'm saying is that cancel and rebook is a different problem than the problem that caused Wyndham to suspend all those accounts 6 weeks ago.

 

[Roger830]

It's very simple, reservations consume points available for bookings, cancellations create points for bookings.

This short video explains where this is going.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjoMQJf5vKI

 

[cruisin]

The solution in a perfect world would be for Wyndham to build more units - BUT
that cost $$$ . Selling the points makes $$$ .

I am sure that some of this is accounted by contract owners who let points expire . I am sure Wyndham knows what percent of points expire etc.
just like airline know their " float/ overbook " capacity on each route .

.

That is how a Manhattan Club tries to get away with it, sell More units than you create hoping that unused memberships will cover it.

 

[ronparise]

It's very simple, reservations consume points available for bookings, cancellations create points for bookings.

This short video explains where this is going.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjoMQJf5vKI

No question the cancel and rebook trick is dead. Or at least it will be soon.

Again. my point is that cancel and rebook doesn't explain the problem of excess points that caused Wyndham to suspend our accounts.

 

[ilya]

So does this mean they are going to stop the cancel/rebook for everyone or just the largest accounts? this was the prime reason for us buying developer points and upgrading to vip. Hoping to make some of our money back.. It seems people want to rent for an extremely cheap price and without the upgrades you will never make some of the costs back.

 

[T-Dot-Traveller]

So does this mean they are going to stop the cancel/rebook for everyone or just the largest accounts? this was the prime reason for us buying developer points and upgrading to vip. Hoping to make some of our money back.. It seems people want to rent for an extremely cheap price and without the upgrades you will never make some of the costs back.

This is my 2 cents as a non Whyndham owner who has followed this thread since August and read lots of TUG " today's posts" .

If you cancel a Feb. South Florida and Wyndham computer is set up (ie. will be programmed )to return that booking to inventory in a random time frame of 1 hr to 36 hours are you going to sit there for 36 hours to rebook . I am sure at the same time it will allow you to book a Feb Branson week for half the points . Not exactly what sales told you - but close enough in a " sales - truth TS world .

On the other hand - if the rules are the same for everybody and therefor renters are now forced to pay $ 300-500 more per week because of a "updated points cost" structure I do not think the prime week rental market goes away .

I also do not think Wyndham's own rental business is adverse to making more per unit rented so they are unlikely to significantly undercut you on prime week rentals . ( Indio in the summer or Branson in Feb - probably cheaper from them )
The one negative is that per million points you probably can book fewer prime weeks because the final point cost is now resort chart cost .

*****
I will defer to Ron and others to review my 2 cents of analysis .

.

 

[ronparise]

So does this mean they are going to stop the cancel/rebook for everyone or just the largest accounts? this was the prime reason for us buying developer points and upgrading to vip. Hoping to make some of our money back.. It seems people want to rent for an extremely cheap price and without the upgrades you will never make some of the costs back.

This is only my opinion

Cancel and rebooking is actually two separate and distinct operations
1) canceling and 2) booking So no, wyndham is not going to do anything to stop those activities.

And VIP discounts inside 60 days is a program that will (in my opinion) also be continued.

however canceling to create availability inside 60 days and immediately rebooking to get those discounts is in my opinion a practice that can only be described as an abuse of the system. At best it just pisses off the non VIP owners and at worst it really hurts them

I think wyndham has to stop it. How they might do it is the question. They could institute a waiting list so that cancellations of the most in demand reservations would not come back into inventory. Or they could have cancelled reservations come back at some random schedule from a few minutes to a few days. And they could prevent the VCs from facilitating these operations Or they could do something else I haven't thought of



Just know that no one in Wyndham likes that renting for commercial purposes is happening and they aim to stop it. They also know that cancelling and rebooking for a discount is what makes most rentals profitable. Connect the dots

 

[ronparise]

Wyndham' s office in Orlando is closed because of the hurricane. If you expected something this week it ain't gonna happen

 

[SueDonJ]

I agree with those who are saying that this is an accounting issue that goes far, far beyond the effects of last-minute discounts on member accounts.

Wyndham isn't alone in allowing last-minute discounts for Points stays, and Wyndham owners aren't alone in taking advantage of that by cancelling/rebooking. In Marriott's Points system it can happen, too; on the Marriott forum we refer to it as "The Puck Trick" because PuckmanFL was the first to capitalize. Some of us only use it when a same interval is sitting there available because we don't want to risk losing a reservation in the interim between the two distinct (cancel and rebook) transactions. Others of us less risk-averse take the chance that the same interval will become available to us shortly after we've cancelled it, that it won't instead match to a pending Waitlist request. You win some, lose some.

The discount has everything to do with last-minute resort inventory availability. It has nothing to do with over-selling of Points or other bad acts by the timeshare companies. Sure, they could be doing something else bad , but offering last-minute discounts doesn't automatically make them bad actors.

And yes, of course the Mega-Renters can manipulate the inventory to their advantage (by booking at the outset more units than they want/need and then cancelling/rebooking during the discount period on a staggered basis so as to give themselves the best chance of getting the cancelled intervals when they're again available) but again, that's not a bad act by Wyndham. And if Wyndham wants to simply end that, they need only to enforce on Mega-Renters their vague restriction against commercial activity.

It really is astounding that Wyndham STILL has your accounts under audit. Can't imagine what you're going through every day but I'm continuing to wish you all well.

 

[ilya]

I do think it is an abuse of the system when done in large amounts, but to be a gold status and not be able to take advantage of a few rentals a years is not abuse.

 

[nicemann]

Wyndham' s office in Orlando is closed because of the hurricane. If you expected something this week it ain't gonna happen

Oh no....I bought a CWA on eBay last week and was hoping they would be working on the paperwork this week or next at Wyndham. Guess that is not going to happen.

Appreciate the heads up.

 

[ronparise]

I do think it is an abuse of the system when done in large amounts, but to be a gold status and not be able to take advantage of a few rentals a years is not abuse.

Putting an end to the cancel rebook trick will not prevent rentals, neither large scale commercial activity or once in a while activity. What it would do is take out most of the profit potential. There will still be profitable reservations so renting will continue. At least that's what I think

 

[buckor]

Putting an end to the cancel rebook trick will not prevent rentals, neither large scale commercial activity or once in a while activity. What it would do is take out most of the profit potential. There will still be profitable reservations so renting will continue. At least that's what I think

Agreed, taking out cancel/rebook will not stop all rental activity...as has been pointed out in other threads, there are plenty of reservations that can be made and rented for a nice profit without the need of discounts and upgrades. However, we all see the companies that offer presidential suites for 3 nights for $300 and know exactly how they were able to get that room and offer it at a rate no one else could possibly offer...i think those are the renters Wyndham would be after using the cancel/ rebook...because they cut into Wyndham's rentals too.

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[ilya]

Ok, so I have to figure out what to book for rental profit and where to advertise . Any suggestions ?