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A lazy fix 20 years ago means the Y2K bug is taking down computers now

Makai Guy

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"Programmers wanting to avoid the Y2K bug had two broad options: entirely rewrite their code, or adopt a quick fix called “windowing”, which would treat all dates from 00 to 20, as from the 2000s, rather than the 1900s. An estimated 80 per cent of computers fixed in 1999 used the quicker, cheaper option. ... Those systems that used the quick fix have now reached the end of that window, and have rolled back to 1920."

Full article
 

klpca

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It's always something, isn't it?
 

klpca

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Ah, the dreaded double post.
 

T-Dot-Traveller

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"Programmers wanting to........ fixed in 1999 used the quicker, cheaper option. ... Those systems that used the quick fix have now reached the end of that window, and have rolled back to 1920."
Full article

hi Doug - when I saw your post - it brought to mind the recent NYC parking meter issue .
- the article you linked to confirmed this.
 

rhonda

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Yeah and who expected that code from that time would still be in use 20 years later? Crazy talk, right?

I remember getting a call in the late 90's from a client 10 years following my last visit ... requesting to update the code, "The IRS changed one of their forms ... " What? You are still using my code ... after 10 years? (I'd fully expected that nothing lived beyond ~3 years in those days ...)
 

isisdave

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There WAS some discussion of this back then, and I'm sure some implementations, but I think 50, rather than 20, was the usual dividing line. It's pretty hard to imagine a computer system lasting longer than 50 years (the California DMV may be an exception), put it was pretty darn sure no one making the fix in 1999 would be around to worry in 2050.
 

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I would have to dispute the notion that 80% of the code is bad. I cannot say as for others, but when we had to go in and fix, we made it solid, requiring all 4 digits of the year. Lazy fixes make no sense! Nobody's idea of job security is revisiting date code. ugh.
But at this point, nobody knows how much old code is still rolling out there, so saying 80% was bad fix, is throwing a dart. there is no way to know. and nobody polled me about fixes we made, so there is no data to suggest 80% were lazy fixes across the country.
 
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pedro47

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On 12/31/1999 I was at worked from 10:00 PM to 5 AM 01/01/2000 because of Y2000. I do not want to hear about this programming problem in 2020.:mad:

Thanks you Makai Guy for the notification and the article.
 

Blues

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Yeah and who expected that code from that time would still be in use 20 years later? Crazy talk, right?

I remember getting a call in the late 90's from a client 10 years following my last visit ... requesting to update the code, "The IRS changed one of their forms ... " What? You are still using my code ... after 10 years? (I'd fully expected that nothing lived beyond ~3 years in those days ...)

Before retiring 2 years ago, I worked for the same company for 25 years. And while I was there, some fellow software geeks threw me a party celebrating the 25th anniversary for some of my early code, which was still in service.

My response to the OP is -- What??? Some people tried to fix Y2K without going to 4 digit years? That's the height of laziness and/or cheapness; and anyone who did that deserves to get bit on the @ss.
 

rhonda

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and nobody polled me about fixes we made, so there is no data to suggest 80% were lazy fixes across the country.
I wasn't polled, per se, but from '97 through/beyond Y2K, I was working in the banking industry. I wrote several papers to answer "higher ups" defending our coding strategy which used specific date/time data structures (long format) provided by the database engine. Mgt asked repeatedly for assurances that this code wouldn't break/blowup or die over the dreaded Y2K issue. They also negated all travel during the period and kept us "close at hand" for months on either side of the critical dates. LOL. Great time to be programmer! :)
 

geekette

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I wasn't polled, per se, but from '97 through/beyond Y2K, I was working in the banking industry. I wrote several papers to answer "higher ups" defending our coding strategy which used specific date/time data structures (long format) provided by the database engine. Mgt asked repeatedly for assurances that this code wouldn't break/blowup or die over the dreaded Y2K issue. They also negated all travel during the period and kept us "close at hand" for months on either side of the critical dates. LOL. Great time to be programmer! :)
oh man, so many hours of my life I had to devote to mgmt insecurity/distrust! I got to where I said, if you don't trust me, fire me. I'm going home now one way or another.

this is why geeks are salaried. nobody wants to pay for all the hours of ridiculous "just in case".
 

Makai Guy

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Some people tried to fix Y2K without going to 4 digit years? That's the height of laziness and/or cheapness; and anyone who did that deserves to get bit on the @ss.
Oh, I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately in many (most?) cases the person getting so bitten is no longer the person who put in the inadequate fix in the first place.
 

bogey21

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(Management) negated all travel during the period and kept us "close at hand" for months on either side of the critical dates. LOL. Great time to be programmer! :)

At my Bank we locked in key Programmers contractually (with bonuses) for a number of months both before and after Y2K. Was it worth the money? I guess so as we never missed a beat because of this...

George
 

Ralph Sir Edward

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Everybody, I am an old mainframe programmer who did a big Y2K project.

Plus the firm I am contracting for (whose name will remain confidential) just found out a couple of days ago that they are getting bitten by their old "20 pivot" windowing.

I'll write up a long post tomorrow about the whole thing, but right now it's Saturday night and the lady is waiting . . . .
 

Ralph Sir Edward

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(background music of Pink Floyd's Welcome To The Machine)

The Y2K problem (and it was/is a real problem) was because in the old days, computing was outrageously slow, limited, and expensive.

To save space, dates were save as a 2 digit year only, not the four digit year and century. So when the date rolled over to 2000, the computer programs would think it was 1900. To put it mildly, thing that depended on things like date of birth, among other dates, would have major problems. Like getting life insurance for a baby, that the system would think is 100 years old. Lot's of financial businesses are heavily dependent on dates. (Imagine what would happen to an interest calculation with a century off date. . . )

Now businesses will not spend a dime they don't have to (except for executive bonuses). On the other hand, if they didn't fix the date problem, they wouldn't be in business long. (Think Mel Brooks as Governor in Blazing Saddles - "Gentlemen, we have to look out for our phony-balony jobs!!!!)

So they, to a business, waited until the last minute to do anything. (An old MBA friend of mine pointed out the no business looks at any problem until 5 years before it happens and then doesn't <do> anything until 2 year until failure.) So now you had a bunch of companies, all biding for the same limited labor, with a hard, unmovable, deadline. The work wasn't hard, but there could be no mistakes, because if there were, the error(s) would start propagating through all the permanent files.

There were three courses of action.

1. Do a permanent fix. Change all the programs, convert all the files. (And you had to make a list of every program, every job, and every file, and be <certain> you haven't missed any.) Then test every program, job, report, and file. (and remember that the changed files sort differently, or they results go BANG.)

2. Replace all the programs with existing new commercial systems, already verified to not have a Y2K problem. (And tweak the new system to do everything the old one did, and do full comparison test between the old systems and the new systems.)

3. Or do a "quick and dirty" set of patches called "windowing" to "kick the can" further down the road. That consisted of checking each year against a benchmark year. If the year coming in was less than the benchmark year, set the century to 2000, else set the century to 1900. The benchmark date used for the compare was called the "Pivot Year". The three most popular Pivot Years were 2020, 2049, and 2050. The advantage was no file changes (so no file conversions), and you could used a sort feature to sort with the Pivot Year and the high/low year.

The problem was that it would fail when the Pivot Year was reached. But the managements who used windowing were certain that (a. They wouldn't be around when it failed. and (b. The mainframe would be scrapped by the end of the windowing period, so why waste money doing a permanent fix?

Except that the mainframes (like DC-3 airplanes) won't ever die. . . .

SO. . . . Here we are.

Companies who use mainframes, and used windowing, and a 2020 pivot date are having their master files corrupted. That started with the first run of the year. They may or may not know about it yet - but believe me, they will!

And they have no time for planning, no time for repairs, every day leads to more master file corruption. The company I am currently doing a contract for got their first taste of the problem on Thursday. The programmer who found the date logic that caused the first complaint, thought it was a single program error, but sent out an e-mail to the other programmers in my area, describing the problem. I immediated knew what was happening (I had spent 2 intense years doing a #1 fix, from late 1997 to late 1999), and gave a heads-up to my manager. Friday morning I completed a code search of programs that probably had the some aspect of the problem. At least 1,600 programs. I gave the list to the managers involved. Friday afternoon, I was included in the management meeting. I gave them the scope of the problem and what had to be done immediately (I made it clear immediate was that afternoon!). I was "patted on the head", and the development lead programmer assured that the 8 to 10 critical programs had already been changed, and the rest could be handled without any panic. I was thanks for my input, and informed that the rest of the meeting were to be management only, and I didn't need to be invited. Ok by me, I'm a contractor. I don't give a D.R.A. about the company, just the quality of my work.

How many more companies are like this, who knows? 20 Pivot was the lowest common pivot year, 49 and 50 were much more popular. But the next few months should prove very interesting. . .
 

T_R_Oglodyte

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Before retiring 2 years ago, I worked for the same company for 25 years. And while I was there, some fellow software geeks threw me a party celebrating the 25th anniversary for some of my early code, which was still in service.

My response to the OP is -- What??? Some people tried to fix Y2K without going to 4 digit years? That's the height of laziness and/or cheapness; and anyone who did that deserves to get bit on the @ss.
I'm still using VB code I wrote 25 years ago. It works, I know it's bug-free, and it's lightning fast.
 

bogey21

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Friday morning I completed a code search of programs that probably had the some aspect of the problem. At least 1,600 programs. I gave the list to the managers involved. Friday afternoon, I was included in the management meeting. I gave them the scope of the problem and what had to be done immediately (I made it clear immediate was that afternoon!). I was "patted on the head", and the development lead programmer assured that the 8 to 10 critical programs had already been changed, and the rest could be handled without any panic. I was thanks for my input, and informed that the rest of the meeting were to be management only, and I didn't need to be invited.

All I can say to them is "Good Luck"...

George
 
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