A few thoughts on the Destination Points

[Jaybee]

??? Now, can someone tell me why trying to follow, and understand this thread is giving me a headache? LOL!

 

[Dean]

Thanks Dean, it's great to get some intelligent information. I still feel Marriott's new program shows an arrogant disregard for it's customers base, but at least it's nice to finally hear some specifics regarding the finer points!

Best wishes,
David

I guess my interpretation is that points owners have always overpaid in the more expensive systems, esp DVC, they just didn't have it in front of their face to know how bad it was.

Very good info in your post, Dean, thanks!

One thing about this that I cut - I know you're waiting on the SurfWatch GM but maybe you can clear up my confusion before you hear. Are you saying that the priority list will always be (well, as much as the other priority list was always utilized )

- Premier Plus purchased and/or enrolled Points
- Premier purchased and/or enrolled Points
- (un-enrolled) Weeks, etc...

Or, will an enrolled Points member staying at his/her home resort(s) using the underlying Week(s) be third in the list? IOW, will the tier level for Points owners only apply when Enrolled Points owners use Points instead of Week(s)?

I'm not waiting on the GM, just acknowledging that he brought the issue up independently. Specifically I'm saying that I don't know how the various levels of points owners will fit into the historical unit assignment priority. MY guess initially was they would come in after weeks owners at that resort and that those using their week, enrolled member or not, would be on the same level. After gathering more info, I no longer hold that theory but rather that you can insert at least the 2 higher points groups above non enrolled owners. That it will be based on their priority level, not their home resort. Thus one using their own week who is Premier Plus, would get a higher priority than one using their own week who had not enrolled, at least in my current theory.

I'm also wondering out loud if Corporate will give LESS leeway to resorts in this area than they have in the past.

Could you explain " thus you can't use banked points for a week that crosses the UY" and perhaps give an example?
Thanks

Sure, with Bluegreen you could have a 14 day reservation starting on the last day of your UY and use as many banked points for that reservation as you had/wanted. I've done that very thing. With DVC, you actually reserve day by day from a points usage standpoint and thus if a reservation crosses over your UY, you must have the applicable points for each UY. It appears that MVCD will take the latter method from what I'm seeing thus far.

Hi Dean,

This is probably a stupid question to others, but somewhere along the line I missed the info about a 10 month window - what is that? I understand 13/12 months, but what happens at 10 months out?

TIA!!

It applies to those who are Premier or lower and want to make reservations for stays less than 7 days. Premier Plus owners can make those shorter reservations at 13 months out.

That will be another big thing to PO people if weeks owners at their home resort do not get priority for room assignment/preference over points.

Also, what is to prevent a weeks owner who spent a LOT more for a Plat Plus week from getting shut out at their home resort by a points owners grabbing up the inventory before the PlatPlus owners can make their reservations?

I haven't seen a definitive answer on HOW they'll segregate the inventories between weeks and points. Apparently those taking weeks (both non enrolled and enrolled) will compete for the same applicable inventory. The HOW the weeks will be divided up has not be truly answered that I can see. Obviously they have to hold the number of weeks required to satisfy the weeks reservations that will be pending but will they take each week and divide up the inventory OR will they relegate those reserving weeks to the fringe weeks for a given season. I simply don't have a clue about the real answer on this one.

Actually for Platinum Plus it's likely to be less of an issue since they must hold X weeks equal to the number of weeks reservations pending within that season and Platinum Plus periods are mostly 1 week, 2 weeks for some.

We asked the same question and got a different answer. I don't know which is right. I don't however see how the points owner would be getting a thirteen months head start if they didn't get to reserve till AFTER the actual thirteenth month date. The same would be true of weeks. It would seem both would have to have a date concurrent with or before the eligible reservation date.

I really hadn't looked at it until tonight. Using the points calculator on the website, it's clearly the Tuesday that would fall AFTER the 13 month window for resorts with a Thursday or Fri check in. I put in 23 June, 2012 and got Tuesday 24 May, 2011 as the 13 month date.

 

[dioxide45]

Even if weeks people could reserve a day or two ahead in some circumstances. Many of those booking at the 13 month mark are just booking to turn around and give those weeks to II. Thus providing access to that inventory by Marriott for points. Those booking with points will be wise to call in several days in a row as Marriott can likely pull them the time one day when they couldn't get it the day before.

 

[ilene13]

Hi Dean,
We are currently at Surfwatch and we attended a points presentation and an owners forum. Also, thanks to Greg I also spoke to Joseph at the owner advocacy number in Lakeland. Here is what we found out:
* Booking my week at my home resort will give me priority as a weeks owner for which unit I can request. Marcus, the Operations manager here was adamant about that. He said at least 54% of the owners use platinum season and he is here for the owners---the resort is sold out. That made me feel good as I am not sure if we are enrolling.
* The salesman only wanted us to buy more points--he said Marriott's goal is for each owner to have the equivalent of 10 weeks of timeshares. I own 7 weeks, so should I buy 15,000 points?? He is crazy!! He was giving me a deal--if I buy 6500 ppoints the maintanence fee can be divided over 12 months---what a buy! He claimed 99% of all owners are enrolling. So far everyone I have met here has not enrolled or has not decided. He also said that he thought all resorts were part of the trust--I thought the sold out units were not. He did not know.
* Joseph, the head of owner advocacy was very nice. He said that since I rarely if ever exchange the program might not be for an owner like me. The salesman of course disagreed. I asked if I would need a 2nd II membership for my non-marriott weeks. Neither Joseph or the person above him in Lakeland knew the correct answer. They are researching it and Joseph will let me know. I am waiting to here--that may help make my decision. Of course the salesman thought he knew the answer but I will trust the Lakeland folk more.

Hope this helps.

ilene

I haven't read through every thread on this subject so if I'm redundant, please forgive me. Plus there were a couple of angles/tangents to some of the issue that I know has been discussed. Just a few points that I picked up today. Of course I know it's a new system, we're all learning it including Marriott employees that deal with it and much of it can change even if accurate today.

• 13 month and 10 month reservations go in on Tuesday.
• 12 month reservations go in on Friday.
• We can apparently drop or add days to an existing reservation without it being a cancelation and rebooking.
• Supposedly those weeks that were eligible for MR points previously can elect to either take . he points they would have gotten under the old system OR convert to Destination points THEN to MR points.
• Points are deemed used day by day not at day 1 of the reservation. Thus you can't use banked points for a week that crosses over the UY. I know some are thinking "duh" but there is at least one system that does it the other way.
• Apparently the wait list will be pretty flexible and one can go on it the same day that you are eligible for a given reservation. Can specify view type, etc or just search for any view for a given time.
• Apparently Marriott is going to put a fair amount of weight behind the Premier Plus and Premier levels.
• Can't add outside listings to the Marriott II account.
• Other than the Club fee of $169 or $199, it appears the only fees that will remain for those that convert will be the FL Club $39 and any II trade that involves a non Marriott resort even if Marriott is listed also. And like the previous system, that's true even if the ultimate match is to a Marriott week. Thus no II exchange fees to other Marriott's, no lockoff fees, no MR conversion fees, no cancelation fees, no transfer fees, etc.
• Cancelations for free up to 60 days out and go into holding account at under 60 days. It appears the cutoff for cancelation to get holding account points is the day before checkin rather than the day of.
• Can make a points reservation while searching with II and later cancel subject to the mentioned cancelation rules.

Unit assignment priority at a given resort appears to be uncharted territory. My VOA who seemed VERY knowledgeable didn't know and the GM at Surfwatch said he's asked for clarification on that subject himself. My guess is something like the following.

• Premier Plus (regardless of where they own)
• Premier (regardless of where they own)
• Week owners at that resort and so on per the usual hierarchy we've all known for a while.

I came away from my conversations today with a different sense than I did going in on unit assignments. My assumption going in was that weeks owners at a given resort would have a higher priority and I now do not think that is likely. The other issue that I picked up on from a GM I talked to last week is that apparently in the past Corporate has given a general framework for unit assignments and let the individual resorts have a fair amount of latitude. I got the sense that he did not feel this would be the case, or at least as much so, with the new system.

On a side note, I had asked about our VOA changing if we converted an was told no but there was a change. Apparently the advisors had a choice whether to participate in the new system or stay with the old. They actually had to apply to be a points VOA.

Anyway, a few tidbits and variations that were helpful to me.

 

[jazzeaw]

This whole new change is very confusing to me as well. What is you just want to stay with II? The cost in our letter for joining this program was over $600 that is a lot of money. We own 3 Marriott timeshares - all platinum and so far have done trading from 1 marriott to another via II. I am a bit hesitant to spend alot of money to trade points. We will be in Hilton Head the end of July and I fully intend on talking with someone there about this. It does not sound as good as the Marriott rep we purchased our most recent timeshare made it out to be.

 

[DanCali]

This whole new change is very confusing to me as well. What is you just want to stay with II? The cost in our letter for joining this program was over $600 that is a lot of money. We own 3 Marriott timeshares - all platinum and so far have done trading from 1 marriott to another via II. I am a bit hesitant to spend alot of money to trade points. We will be in Hilton Head the end of July and I fully intend on talking with someone there about this. It does not sound as good as the Marriott rep we purchased our most recent timeshare made it out to be.

From various sources we heard that Marriott itself projects only 20% enrollment. Many owners will stay with II. If it doesn't feel right, don't feel pressured to enroll, especially when talking to a salesperson. Some are not the most truthful people in the world and there are plenty recent examples of salespeople using scare tactics and blatant lies to talk people into enrolling (in fact, the post previous to yours written by ilene13 is one of them...).

It may or it may not be right for you. Understand that there is currently no deadline to enroll despite what a salesperson may tell you (but if you enroll before Dec 31 you get a one time bonus 800 points good for a year). Take your time and make an informed decision. Tug is your best source of info - both pros and cons.

 

[vacationmama]

Why would we buy

points? I went online and looked up the points for the three resorts I own. Then i plugged in when I usually go. In each instance, I did not have enough points to rebook my own week. So please, someone tell me what the advantage is of joining. I must be missing something in the equation.

 

[Dean]

Hi Dean,
We are currently at Surfwatch and we attended a points presentation and an owners forum. Also, thanks to Greg I also spoke to Joseph at the owner advocacy number in Lakeland. Here is what we found out:
* Booking my week at my home resort will give me priority as a weeks owner for which unit I can request. Marcus, the Operations manager here was adamant about that. He said at least 54% of the owners use platinum season and he is here for the owners---the resort is sold out. That made me feel good as I am not sure if we are enrolling.
* The salesman only wanted us to buy more points--he said Marriott's goal is for each owner to have the equivalent of 10 weeks of timeshares. I own 7 weeks, so should I buy 15,000 points?? He is crazy!! He was giving me a deal--if I buy 6500 ppoints the maintanence fee can be divided over 12 months---what a buy! He claimed 99% of all owners are enrolling. So far everyone I have met here has not enrolled or has not decided. He also said that he thought all resorts were part of the trust--I thought the sold out units were not. He did not know.
* Joseph, the head of owner advocacy was very nice. He said that since I rarely if ever exchange the program might not be for an owner like me. The salesman of course disagreed. I asked if I would need a 2nd II membership for my non-marriott weeks. Neither Joseph or the person above him in Lakeland knew the correct answer. They are researching it and Joseph will let me know. I am waiting to here--that may help make my decision. Of course the salesman thought he knew the answer but I will trust the Lakeland folk more.

Hope this helps.

ilene

That is different than I got from the GM and one other manager there. The GM specifically said that they had asked Marriott for clarification on unit assignments. It is my opinion that Marriott will tell them the overall priorities but each resort will have some flexibility in the implementation. My impression was that the GM felt the same as I. I think you'll see Marriott and in turn, each resort, putting more effort to keeping Premier Plus owners happy than the rest but I'm sure they'll try to balance the issue to keep everyone as happy as they can, just as they do now. I doubt you'll hear them say they put another owner ahead of you, rather you'll get the song and dance about there are many factors, can't make everyone happy, we try out best, keep your requests realistic and simple, etc.

This whole new change is very confusing to me as well. What is you just want to stay with II? The cost in our letter for joining this program was over $600 that is a lot of money. We own 3 Marriott timeshares - all platinum and so far have done trading from 1 marriott to another via II. I am a bit hesitant to spend alot of money to trade points. We will be in Hilton Head the end of July and I fully intend on talking with someone there about this. It does not sound as good as the Marriott rep we purchased our most recent timeshare made it out to be.

Lets assume you want to keep things just as they are from a technical standpoint, how might the new program work (or not work) for you. You join for $700 assuming you bought all 3 from Marriott. You pay either $169 or $199 per year club dues. You can still reserve and deposit with II but you no longer have to have an II account that you pay for, no more lockoff fees, no more II trading fees if you only list Marriott to Marriott. We own 9 weeks but only 3 that we have slated for trading so our situation is somewhat comparable to yours. Based on our usual trading usage for those 3 weeks, our yearly fees would look like this many years.

• $84/yr II fee
• $150 per year lockoff fees (2 units)
• $545 exchange fees for 5 Marriott to Marriott weeks

One year recoups our costs if our weeks were only the $695, it'll take us 4 years due to the fact that most of ours units are resale and that we'll have to keep the paid II account open at least for a while and possibly ongoing. Plus I suspect that those trading through the new system accounts will fare better long term than those not though it may take years for that to become apparent and neither Marriott nor II will likely every say that officially though I'm sure the sales staff will.

points? I went online and looked up the points for the three resorts I own. Then i plugged in when I usually go. In each instance, I did not have enough points to rebook my own week. So please, someone tell me what the advantage is of joining. I must be missing something in the equation.

For that scenario NO ONE would should join. It may not be a good choice for you like it is for us. But I don't know anyone that would plan to take points then reserve a week in their season and home resort. IMO for one to join for POINTS one has to be willing to give Marriott a commission in order to have direct reservations for specific dates that might be more or less than a full week and have guaranteed view types. While I've done very well with II, more control and the other options that can be controlled in the new system are worth the costs involved. Plus it will save us money overall even with the points differential.

Most points systems hide their inequities more than the new Marriott system does. At the end of the day it is what it is and each of us must decide whether to participate or not, for some, the issues they see as unfair will prevent them from proceeding. Whether that's good or bad for their situation depends on their circumstances and the management of the program over time. Personally I"m convinced that Marriott will ensure the new system will survive and flourish and that may come at the expense of those that decide not to participate in some situations.

We're all learning the new system and these type of exchanges should help all of us to better understand the ins and outs.

 

[JimC]

Let's see if I have this correct:

1. To use internal exchange I must enroll my weeks in MVCI-DC; otherwise I can only exchange via II and hope there are Marriott weeks in inventory there (I suspect it will decrease over time).

2. To use internal exchange as an enrolled owner I must convert my weeks to points by 9/30 of the year prior. I cannot make a weeks reservation, then make an internal exchange if my plans change (must use II in that situation).

3. Point inventory is separate from weeks inventory so internal exchange may not include all MVCI resorts or significant inventory at the resorts in the trust. MVCI-DC is, at least initially, a smaller portfolio of resorts and inventory within those resorts. If only 20% of owners enroll (as some have indicated) then it will permanently be a much smaller program.

4. As a weeks owner I can reserve one year in advance of my resort's first check-in day for the week in my season I want (I don't reserve concurrent or consecutive weeks). But as an enrolled owner using points (with a 20% surcharge) I can reserve that same week 13 months in advance. Premier and Premier Plus owners can book at 13 months without using 20% more points. So as a weeks resort owner I stand behind any enrolled owner. I have a home resort disadvantage if I remain a weeks owner.

5. Can an enrolled owner reserve a week using weeks at 13 months like an enrolled owner using points?

6. Villa assignment will be prioritized so that points reservations have priority over resort owners using their weeks. Another home resort disadvantage. This is my understanding from comments earlier in this thread.

7. The simplified fee structure is an added cost to those who stay where they own and a benefit for those who lock-off and exchange frequently.

8. I am still having trouble accepting the statement that nothing has changed and I can continue to reserve and stay at my resort in my season as before. If I understand this new program, weeks owners have been demoted.

9. Does the travel protection program offered by Marriott cover both weeks and points?

 

[DanCali]

Most points systems hide their inequities more than the new Marriott system does.

I disagree with this statement because I think the Marriott system is filled with inequities other systems don't have (e.g. skimming, hidden lockoff fees). But regardless on whether this statement is correct or not, it hits on a crucial issue. Points systems have inequities. Some more than others.

The weeks system separated the exchanges from the management company. That was more equitable. There were checks and balances. And based on TUG surveys it worked just fine; most owners were very happy, especially given this is a timeshare system we are talking about where many other developers rip off owners.

Personally, I feel the new points system is designed to enrich Marriott at owners' expense. If we started a new satisfaction survey based on the points system, my guess is that it would look as bad pretty bad for Marriott...

 

[dioxide45]

It seems that Marriott offered this program to current owners (and spent a lot of time and money on it) to fill a very small void in their current ownership base.

Sure some people complained about II, but was that the majority? Some owners have an inequity in exchanges, high value weeks having to often trade down, but were they the majority?

The answers are no. Marriott only offered this to current owners as a peace offering. They designed it to sell stale inventory and only offered it to current owners as a side though. Imagine the outcry from everyone here if it was not offered to us at all.

 

[dmc67]

Owner satisfaction

I disagree with this statement because I think the Marriott system is filled with inequities other systems don't have (e.g. skimming, hidden lockoff fees). But regardless on whether this statement is correct or not, it hits on a crucial issue. Points systems have inequities. Some more than others.

The weeks system separated the exchanges from the management company. That was more equitable. There were checks and balances. And based on TUG surveys it worked just fine; most owners were very happy, especially given this is a timeshare system we are talking about where many other developers rip off owners.

Personally, I feel the new points system is designed to enrich Marriott at owners' expense. If we started a new satisfaction survey based on the points system, my guess is that it would look as bad pretty bad for Marriott...

I agree that the points system is designed to enrich Marriot at owners' expense and that an owner satisfaction survey would provide a very poor showing for Marriott.

I have owned Marriott timeshares for 15 years and now own 6 weeks. We went to the SALES PITCH today at Ocean Watch and it was NOT NOT NOT Marriott's normal high quality, low pressure experience. I go to the pitch at every location with every stay because I usually learn something new every time. Today, I was assigned to a junior sales associate who provided me with bad math by miscalculating the points my properties are worth (according to thje MVCI website) and she then tried to pressure me into buying $15,000 worth of points to be considered a "premier" owner, with the only benefit being reservations 13 months out. According to the website, I already AM a premier plus owner!

When I came back to my unit, I did as a previous person did and compared my points value with the points values for the same weeks. In EVERY case, I would get at least 300 fewer points than it would take to book the same week. Are you kidding? After paying enrollment and annual fees, shouldn't the points be equal? If I trade a week under the normal option, I get the equivalent week. Why fewer points?

I was VERY disappointed. In general, the discussion around the pool is that the point system will end up screwing owners in the long run... I'm willing to withhold judgement, but nothing has looked good to me so far. I typically refer 4-5 new buyers a year to MVCI, but those days are over for a while until this systems shows that it truly is beneficial.

 

[windje2000]

I agree that the points system is designed to enrich Marriot at owners' expense and that an owner satisfaction survey would provide a very poor showing for Marriott.

I have owned Marriott timeshares for 15 years and now own 6 weeks. We went to the SALES PITCH today at Ocean Watch and it was NOT NOT NOT Marriott's normal high quality, low pressure experience. I go to the pitch at every location with every stay because I usually learn something new every time. Today, I was assigned to a junior sales associate who provided me with bad math by miscalculating the points my properties are worth (according to thje MVCI website) and she then tried to pressure me into buying $15,000 worth of points to be considered a "premier" owner, with the only benefit being reservations 13 months out. According to the website, I already AM a premier plus owner!

When I came back to my unit, I did as a previous person did and compared my points value with the points values for the same weeks. In EVERY case, I would get at least 300 fewer points than it would take to book the same week. Are you kidding? After paying enrollment and annual fees, shouldn't the points be equal? If I trade a week under the normal option, I get the equivalent week. Why fewer points?

I was VERY disappointed. In general, the discussion around the pool is that the point system will end up screwing owners in the long run... I'm willing to withhold judgement, but nothing has looked good to me so far. I typically refer 4-5 new buyers a year to MVCI, but those days are over for a while until this systems shows that it truly is beneficial.

Welcome to TUG!

 

[JimC]

Does MVCI-DC have to comply with state timeshare laws? If so, which state law controls -- where the points owner lives, the state where the trust is registered, elsewhere? I doubt it is tied to the resort location because the resorts are owned by a trust.

If we enroll do we give up the protections we had under the various state timeshare laws?

 

[David10225]

I have read and read and could not find an answer to this question.

If my platinum season is the entire months of June, July and August and 33% of the people who own in that season decide to convert to points....who decides what weeks are taken out of the 3 month platinum inventory for those that remain in weeks? Can Marriott decide to take the entire month of July out of the week inventory and make it available for point users? I would still be guaranteed my week but only in the months of June and August..

So yes...if the scenario above is true then those that keep repeating over and over ...you don't have to join..you can still stay in weeks...you can see why I'm going to be negatively affected......maybe I'm missing something here...

 

[DanCali]

I have read and read and could not find an answer to this question.

If my platinum season is the entire months of June, July and August and 33% of the people who own in that season decide to convert to points....who decides what weeks are taken out of the 3 month platinum inventory for those that remain in weeks? Can Marriott decide to take the entire month of July out of the week inventory and make it available for point users? I would still be guaranteed my week but only in the months of June and August..

So yes...if the scenario above is true then those that keep repeating over and over ...you don't have to join..you can still stay in weeks...you can see why I'm going to be negatively affected......maybe I'm missing something here...

This issue has been brought up numerous times and is known as the "inventory allocation question"

The best Marriott has responded to this is that they are committed to weeks owners being able to reserve a week in their deeded season... (as if they were considering taking that deeded right away too)

The documents are silent on this. Marriott is silent on this.

They also keep saying you don't have to enroll and you can keep doing what you did... and a second later they say if you don't enroll II inventory will go away...

 

[Dean]

I disagree with this statement because I think the Marriott system is filled with inequities other systems don't have (e.g. skimming, hidden lockoff fees). But regardless on whether this statement is correct or not, it hits on a crucial issue. Points systems have inequities. Some more than others.

The weeks system separated the exchanges from the management company. That was more equitable. There were checks and balances. And based on TUG surveys it worked just fine; most owners were very happy, especially given this is a timeshare system we are talking about where many other developers rip off owners.

Personally, I feel the new points system is designed to enrich Marriott at owners' expense. If we started a new satisfaction survey based on the points system, my guess is that it would look as bad pretty bad for Marriott...

My point was that other systems also have inequities but they are less transparent than those with Marriott. If it's not for you, don't participate. You have all the options you had before but the chances of success will likely change over time for unit assignments and exchanges as a minimum.

I don't believe for a second that Marriott will be happy with a minority of owners converting. I think they're far more likely to encourage participation later by pressure and limiting options that by better deals. For example the only option to join might be to buy another 1000-1500 points.

 

[hotcoffee]

My point was that other systems also have inequities but they are less transparent than those with Marriott. If it's not for you, don't participate. You have all the options you had before but the chances of success will likely change over time for unit assignments and exchanges as a minimum.

I don't believe for a second that Marriott will be happy with a minority of owners converting. I think they're far more likely to encourage participation later by pressure and limiting options that by better deals. For example the only option to join might be to buy another 1000-1500 points.

I'm hoping any future tweaks will be enough to meet their target of 20% of existing owners enrolling, but not enough to get anything near a majority of existing owners enrolling. Right now, I'm savoring what I see as a significant trading advantage. The last thing I would want would be for nearly everyone to enroll in the program and compete for the internal exchange inventory. Twenty percent would allow the existing owners to do as they have done in the past, but would keep intact the advantages of being in the program. Everyone will be happy. Those not in the program use weeks as in the past, those in the program will use points to exploit new ways of making the most of what the program has to offer.