• The TUGBBS forums are completely free and open to the public and exist as the absolute best place for owners to get help and advice about their timeshares for more than 30 years!

    Join Tens of Thousands of other Owners just like you here to get any and all Timeshare questions answered 24 hours a day!
  • TUG started 30 years ago in October 1993 as a group of regular Timeshare owners just like you!

    Read about our 30th anniversary: Happy 30th Birthday TUG!
  • TUG has a YouTube Channel to produce weekly short informative videos on popular Timeshare topics!

    Free memberships for every 50 subscribers!

    Visit TUG on Youtube!
  • TUG has now saved timeshare owners more than $21,000,000 dollars just by finding us in time to rescind a new Timeshare purchase! A truly incredible milestone!

    Read more here: TUG saves owners more than $21 Million dollars
  • Sign up to get the TUG Newsletter for free!

    60,000+ subscribing owners! A weekly recap of the best Timeshare resort reviews and the most popular topics discussed by owners!
  • Our official "end my sales presentation early" T-shirts are available again! Also come with the option for a free membership extension with purchase to offset the cost!

    All T-shirt options here!
  • A few of the most common links here on the forums for newbies and guests!

40 Year Florida Timeshare Expires in 3 Years - Then What?

bbakernbay

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2007
Messages
106
Reaction score
47
Points
389
Location
Kitchener, ON, Canada
Our timeshare in the Orlando - Kissimmee Florida Area now has 3 years left on its 40 year life.

Unfortunately the financial situation of the timeshare has deteriorated with the maintenance fees jumping significantly due to 50% of the owners not paying their Maintenance Fees.

The new management group is proposing to convert about 40% of the Units into long term residential rental units in order to create some additional income.

The Manager advises that in 3 years, when the 40 year term expires, then every owner will become a “Tenant-in Common” and the timeshare could continue on.

Financially, I don’t know whether we can survive 3 years as the big MF increase will likely accelerate the Owners abandoning ship.

I own 4 weeks and we use all 4 weeks there every year.

The Manager has indicated that existing Owners can relinquish ownership now or in the future by paying a $350 transfer fee.

The timeshare can’t possibly get sufficient Proxies to even hold an AGM, let alone make a decision to sell the entire complex, at least until the 40 years have expired.

Question 1, if we hang on until the end of 40 years and it is agreed to sell off the entire complex, then who gets to share in the proceeds. At the present time there is no bank loans or liens.

I estimate each unit would have a $100,000 vale as a rental property, therefore in theory the maximum payout to each owner would be $2,000 per week owned.

By year 40 there could only be 25% of the Owners in good standing, does that mean they get to share in the total proceeds based upon their proportion of weeks owned in good standing.

Hopefully, fellow Tuggers will chime in with their experiences or opinions. Apparently there are many Florida timeshares approaching Sunset.
 
Last edited:

Panina

TUG Review Crew: Elite
TUG Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
6,781
Reaction score
9,968
Points
499
Location
Florida
Resorts Owned
Hgvc Anderson, Blue Ride Village Resort
Our timeshare in the Orlando - Kissimmee Florida Area now has 3 years left on its 40 year life.

Unfortunately the financial situation of the timeshare has deteriorated with the maintenance fees jumping significantly due to 50% of the owners not paying their Maintenance Fees.

The new management group is proposing to convert about 40% of the Units into long term residential rental units in order to create some additional income.

The Manager advises that in 3 years, when the 40 year term expires, then every owner will become a “Tenant-in Common” and the timeshare could continue on.

Financially, I don’t know whether we can survive 3 years as the big MF increase will likely accelerate the Owners abandoning ship.

I own 4 weeks and we use all 4 weeks there every year.

The Manager has indicated that existing Owners can relinquish ownership now or in the future by paying a $350 transfer fee.

The timeshare can’t possibly get sufficient Proxies to even hold an AGM, let alone make a decision to sell the entire complex, at least until the 40 years have expired.

Question 1, if we hang on until the end of 40 years and it is agreed to sell off the entire complex, then who gets to share in the proceeds. At the present time there is no bank loans or liens.

I estimate each unit would have a $100,000 vale as a rental property, therefore in theory the maximum payout to each owner would be $2,000 per week owned.

By year 40 there could only be 25% of the Owners in good standing, does that mean they get to share in the total proceeds based upon their proportion of weeks owned in good standing.

Hopefully, fellow Tuggers will chime in with their experiences or opinions. Apparently there are many Florida timeshares approaching Sunset.
I personally would pay the $350 fee for each and get out of ownership. Too high of a risk at this point to have to continue paying maintenance without use.
 

TUGBrian

Administrator
Joined
Mar 24, 2006
Messages
22,091
Reaction score
7,673
Points
1,099
Location
Florida
this is actually more common than you would think!

can do a search here on the forums for "sunset clause" and find a very lengthy thread on it (probably more than one).

it impacts MANY independent timeshares that were established in the 70s and 80s.
 

Panina

TUG Review Crew: Elite
TUG Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
6,781
Reaction score
9,968
Points
499
Location
Florida
Resorts Owned
Hgvc Anderson, Blue Ride Village Resort
this is actually more common than you would think!

can do a search here on the forums for "sunset clause" and find a very lengthy thread on it (probably more than one).

it impacts MANY independent timeshares that were established in the 70s and 80s.
It’s not the sunset clause that bothers me. It’s the financial condition of the resort.
 

bbakernbay

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2007
Messages
106
Reaction score
47
Points
389
Location
Kitchener, ON, Canada
I live in Canada and the Manager at one of our other Florida timeshares told me that it is nearly impossible to legally come after non-American Owners.

Does anyone have any experience with those situations.
 
Last edited:

theo

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2007
Messages
9,032
Reaction score
2,268
Points
648
Location
New England Coast
I live in Canada and the Manager at one of our other Florida timeshares told me that it is nearly impossible to legally come after non-American Owners and that I could likely just walk away without paying if they didn’t want to take a Deedback without any fees being paid by me.

It's certainly not "nearly impossible", but it would be time consuming and expensive and therefore not cost effective. Foreclosure is quicker and cheaper, particularly in states providing for streamlined non-judicial foreclosure proceedings.

It's interesting that a manager would offer insight and / or encouragement to owners regarding just "walking away". This makes me wonder just whose interests this person truly represents :ponder:. Some might argue that a manager offering such input should be the one "walking away" --- perhaps with a cardboard box containing his / her personal effects while being escorted off the property. ;)
 
Last edited:

theo

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2007
Messages
9,032
Reaction score
2,268
Points
648
Location
New England Coast
Our timeshare in the Orlando - Kissimmee Florida Area now has 3 years left on its 40 year life.

Unfortunately the financial situation of the timeshare has deteriorated with the maintenance fees jumping significantly due to 50% of the owners not paying their Maintenance Fees.

The new management group is proposing to convert about 40% of the Units into long term residential rental units in order to create some additional income.

The Manager advises that in 3 years, when the 40 year term expires, then every owner will become a “Tenant-in Common” and the timeshare could continue on.

Financially, I don’t know whether we can survive 3 years as the big MF increase will likely accelerate the Owners abandoning ship.

I own 4 weeks and we use all 4 weeks there every year.

The Manager has indicated that existing Owners can relinquish ownership now or in the future by paying a $350 transfer fee.

The timeshare can’t possibly get sufficient Proxies to even hold an AGM, let alone make a decision to sell the entire complex, at least until the 40 years have expired.

Question 1, if we hang on until the end of 40 years and it is agreed to sell off the entire complex, then who gets to share in the proceeds. At the present time there is no bank loans or liens.

I estimate each unit would have a $100,000 vale as a rental property, therefore in theory the maximum payout to each owner would be $2,000 per week owned.

By year 40 there could only be 25% of the Owners in good standing, does that mean they get to share in the total proceeds based upon their proportion of weeks owned in good standing.

Hopefully, fellow Tuggers will chime in with their experiences or opinions. Apparently there are many Florida timeshares approaching Sunset.

Yes, many "sunset clause" (40 years) dates at FL properties built in the early 1980's are looming in the next very few years. We own several intervals at two different places in FL in that same situation --- both have already formally voted to "extend" as a timeshare.

This topic has been discussed at some length in recent years within other TUG threads. Many proactive FL resorts (those in decent financial and physical condition, anyhow) have (as our two have) already acquired sufficient owner majority votes in recent years to "extend" as a timeshare, commonly for another 10 years --- and have amended the underlying governing docs accordingly, averting any need for "last minute" scurrying for enough votes or other hasty "last minute" decisions or frantic efforts while the clock ticks down to zero hour.

The details and specifics and requirements at your resort reside within the governing condo docs (Declaration of Condominium) of that particular property, without knowledge of which it's very difficult to speculate / guess / opine on the direction(s) your property can or will go. I've not personally seen a place do the death spiral to completion, so I wouldn't dare venture a guess. :shrug:

At 50% (and likley growing) delinquency, it's frankly hard to see how the place can even function for the 3 remaining years; the delinquency rate will obviously just increase further, as more and more owners "bail" in the face of continuously and excessively increasing maintenance fees imposed to try to keep the doors open.

Fwiw, there was a recent article in Timesharing Today (magazine) detailing the ultimate demise (and subsequent events regarding) a timeshare property in west coastal Florida called Sutherland Crossing. If sufficiently interested, you might consider picking up a copy of TT to see if any of that evolution offers any crystal ball insights into your future at your place. :shrug:
 
Last edited:

bbakernbay

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2007
Messages
106
Reaction score
47
Points
389
Location
Kitchener, ON, Canada
I probably overstated what the Manager stated and should have properly had a period after non-American Owners.

I came to my own conclusion that “I could likely just walk away without paying them to take a Deedback ...”

Our first inclination is to take it one year at a time and see what the end of the 40 years bring although any further large increases in our MFees will likely make up our mind for us. We were under assessed in MFees for many years so it is not unreasonable yet.

It is quite likely that we are not alone in Florida with this financial situation.

Thank you for your post.
 

theo

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2007
Messages
9,032
Reaction score
2,268
Points
648
Location
New England Coast
We were under assessed in MFees for many years so it is not unreasonable yet.
It is quite likely that we are not alone in Florida with this financial situation.

That's for certain. I see the very same situation developing at one of our two Florida timeshares; both were originally built in the early 1980's. Prime, unbeatable locations in both instances, but infrastructure is now in only mediocre condition. Maintenance fees have been too low for too long --- and it shows. One place is getting decidedly "tired" looking (and feeling). However, the very low delinquency rate keeps the under-motivated Board and most owners placated.

I see the same phenomenon at other nearby older timeshare properties as well. Absolutely prime locations, but infrastructure is "aging in place" while receiving insufficient attention. The word "upgrades" seems not to even be part of their vocabulary, but people just love those low annual fees. We actually bailed out of a third property in that area already; its' ongoing decline in overall condition had triggered my "tipping point". Selling that prime week (to a fellow owner who just loves those low fees) was relatively easy.

As you surely know, Florida law allows timeshares properties (maybe even all condos, I don't claim to know about that) to deliberately "underfund" financial reserves if Board and owners decide / vote to choose that option. It is, in my view, "penny wise and pound foolish", but mine is a minority viewpoint; the approval vote for willful underfunding of reserves was actually quite lopsided.
 
Last edited:

Panina

TUG Review Crew: Elite
TUG Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
6,781
Reaction score
9,968
Points
499
Location
Florida
Resorts Owned
Hgvc Anderson, Blue Ride Village Resort
That's for certain. I see the very same situation developing at one of our two Florida timeshares; both were originally built in the early 1980's.
Prime, unbeatable locations, but infrastructure is now in only mediocre condition. Maintenance fees have been too low for too long --- and it shows.
One place is getting decidedly "tired" looking (and feeling). However, the very low delinquency rate keeps the Board and (most) owners satisfied.

I see the same phenomenon at nearby older timeshare properties as well. Absolutely prime locations, but infrastucture "aging in place" with minimal attention. The word "upgrades" seems not to even be part of the vocabulary, but people love those low annual fees.

As you surely know, Florida law allows timeshares properties (maybe even all condos, I don't claim to know about that) to deliberately underfund financial reserves if Board and owners decide (and vote) to choose that option. It is, in my view, "penny wise and pound foolish", but mine is definitely a minority viewpoint, as the approval vote for willful underfunding of reserves was quite lopsided.
I also own at few resorts with the clause that were built in the 80’s but they are well maintained. I wouldn’t call the maintenances dirt cheap but they are reasonable next to the chains. They are working on extending.
 

theo

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2007
Messages
9,032
Reaction score
2,268
Points
648
Location
New England Coast
I personally would pay the $350 fee for each and get out of ownership. Too high of a risk at this point to have to continue paying maintenance without use.

OP has actually indicated using the four owned weeks each year.

Just the same, I am inclined to agree with your view that a 50% (and surely growing) delinquency rate is motivation to at least consider a "pay and bail" deedback, but I'm also sure the OP may be wisely contemplating that he does not want to prematurely walk away from a potential payout in 3 years, if there should be one. I suspect that may be determined by value of the underlying real estate. As Will Rogers once said about land, "they're not making any more of it".
 
Last edited:

theo

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2007
Messages
9,032
Reaction score
2,268
Points
648
Location
New England Coast
The Manager advises that in 3 years, when the 40 year term expires, then every owner will become a “Tenant-in Common” and the timeshare could continue on.

The manager may or may not have his / her facts straight here (and may or may have ever even seen or read the underlying condo docs [CC&R's]). It's also unclear (to me, anyhow) just whose interests this manager truly represents, since you indicate "new management" on scene --- yet apparently just one (identified and known) management representative. :ponder:

Again, we don't know what those governing docs say, but a decision to continue on as timeshare is likely something that has to be formally addressed and definitively resolved well before the termination date actually arrives. Otherwise, merely being tenants in common without an extension having already been adopted by amendment to the condo docs could very well mean that no one has any use of or access to the property upon termination as a timeshare. :shrug:
 
Last edited:

bbakernbay

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2007
Messages
106
Reaction score
47
Points
389
Location
Kitchener, ON, Canada
Theo, you have summarized my situation and feelings perfectly.

I am trying to determine whether it may be financially beneficial to hold on and be one of a smaller and smaller proportion of owners who remain in good standing until the property is sold. I have no doubt that will be the outcome.

I value the property at $4,000,000 based on 40 - 2 bedroom furnished units hopefully fetching $100,000 each. They are in a residential neighbourhood with lots of building going on in the immediate area.

Even if legal and other fees eat up 50% of the value each unit should net $1,000.

If only 25% of the Owners remain in good standing I presume the return could be quadrupled. I have 4 Units.

I may be painting a too rosy picture but the buildings, property and furnishings do have value.
 

Panina

TUG Review Crew: Elite
TUG Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
6,781
Reaction score
9,968
Points
499
Location
Florida
Resorts Owned
Hgvc Anderson, Blue Ride Village Resort
OP actually indicated using the four owned weeks each year.

Just the same, I am inclined to agree with your view that a 50% (and surely growing) delinquency rate is motivation to consider a "pay now and bail" deedback, but I'm also sure the OP may be wisely contemplating that he does not want to prematurely walk away from a potential payout in 3 years, if there should be one. I suspect that may be determined by value of the real estate. As will Rogers once said about land, "they're not making any more of it". :ponder:
I owned a timeshare that closed without warning. I was lucky. They offered for me to wait and see if they sell with no maintenance fees for the current year or deedback with a small fee. I think it was $199. I gave it back, don’t want the headache, if it doesn’t sell I can still be responsible for mf, do not care how much I “might” get. It’s a year since I gave it back, they still have no deal to sell.

When I said “without use” I was thinking based on the financial condition it has a good chance of closing prior to the sunset happening.
 

theo

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2007
Messages
9,032
Reaction score
2,268
Points
648
Location
New England Coast
A question that comes to my mind (one which maybe cannot even be answered without knowing the actual content of the condo docs) is the legal / voting / potential payout status of HOA-owned weeks at the time of termination, if that's what ultimately occurs by default or inaction or willful choice.

It could be assumed (...always a very dangerous practice in legal detail matters) that the current willingness to allow short-money deedbacks now is somehow potentially beneficial to someone in the future. After all, HOA owned weeks do not pay any maintenance fees, thereby further accelerating the financial decline --- so why be making it so very easy to turn remaining ownerships into still more non-paying weeks now? :ponder:

Or.... perhaps a "voting block" is being assembled now via "deedbacks", in order to garner sufficient numbers to dominate and prevail in future voting (if HOA owned weeks there even have any vote in the first place, which I just dunno). :shrug:
 
Last edited:

Panina

TUG Review Crew: Elite
TUG Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
6,781
Reaction score
9,968
Points
499
Location
Florida
Resorts Owned
Hgvc Anderson, Blue Ride Village Resort
A question that comes to my mind (one which maybe cannot even be answered without knowing the actual content of the condo docs) is the legal / voting / potential payout status of HOA-owned weeks at the time of termination, if that's what ultimately occurs by default or inaction or willful choice.

It could be assumed (...always a very dangerous practice in legal detail matters) that the current willingness to allow short-money deedbacks now is somehow potentially beneficial to someone. After all, HOA owned weeks do not pay any maintenance fees, thereby further accelerating the financial decline --- so why be making it easy to turn ownerships into even more non-paying weeks now? :ponder: .

Or.... perhaps a "voting block" is being assembled now via "deedbacks", in order to garner sufficient numbers to dominate and prevail in future voting (if HOA owned weeks actually even have any vote in the first place, which I dunno; "termination aftermath" is well outside of my knowledge wheelhouse). :shrug:
All could be so true but is keeping it worth the risk because of the motives of others? If greed is allowing the deedbacks, they are taking the chance it will backfire on them.
 
Last edited:

bbakernbay

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2007
Messages
106
Reaction score
47
Points
389
Location
Kitchener, ON, Canada
Absolutely, I think that could be a very likely scenario in some locations, particularly in desirable on water view properties, or in fact anywhere there is a dollar to be made.

Hopefully some Tuggers with actual experience in this type of Sunset termination will chime in.

I certainly appreciate everyone’s thoughts on this subject. I have a feeling it could be a Hot Topic in the next 5 years.
 

silentg

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2005
Messages
6,185
Reaction score
3,260
Points
649
Location
Central Florida
Resorts Owned
Fitzpatrick's Castle Holiday Homes,
Enchanted Isle.
Absolutely, I think that could be a very likely scenario in some locations, particularly in desirable on water view properties, or in fact anywhere there is a dollar to be made.

Hopefully some Tuggers with actual experience in this type of Sunset termination will chime in.

I certainly appreciate everyone’s thoughts on this subject. I have a feeling it could be a Hot Topic in the next 5 years.
Would you have to pay$350.00 for each week or one fee for all 4?
 

bbakernbay

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2007
Messages
106
Reaction score
47
Points
389
Location
Kitchener, ON, Canada
The Manager said it wouldn’t be 4 @ $350 but some much lesser amount for weeks 2, 3 & 4 but he wasn’t specific. We intend on using our 4 weeks in 2018 until we see how this settles out particularly if they are successful attracting long term rentals which brings several negative factors to the rest of us.

Also the proposed rental per month is about half of the equivalent of our MFees which rankles me and likely others but that is what the market is. Better to get $1,500 income from 16 rental units than have no income.
 

Talent312

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2007
Messages
17,461
Reaction score
7,277
Points
948
Resorts Owned
HGVC & GTS
BTW, even if they tried to try to keep the operation going after it's expiration...
Any "tenant in common" could sue for partition and force a judicial sale w-proceeds divided.

Ideally, the one(s) who want to keep the property would buy out the one who wants to leave.
But sometimes, that just cannot be done.
.
 
Last edited:

theo

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2007
Messages
9,032
Reaction score
2,268
Points
648
Location
New England Coast
BTW, even they tried to try to keep the operation going after expiration...
any "tenant in common" could sue for partition and force a judicial sale w-proceeds divided.

If "kept going" (by CC&R-specified owner majority vote to "extend" before the termination date arrives, amending the CC&R's termination clause and dates accordingly), it seems to me that the option for any individual "tenant in common" to independently sue for partition and forced sale would not exist, since no actual "tenants in common" would exist.

Am I missing or misunderstanding something here? :ponder:
 
Last edited:

bizaro86

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Messages
3,663
Reaction score
2,488
Points
598
Location
Calgary, AB, Canada
If the Governing docs are amended then it wouldn't convert to tenants in common, so there would be no tenants in common to sue for partition.
 

theo

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2007
Messages
9,032
Reaction score
2,268
Points
648
Location
New England Coast
If the Governing docs are amended then it wouldn't convert to tenants in common, so there would be no tenants in common to sue for partition.

Understood and agreed. Poor initial phrasing on my part, now corrected. Thanks. I need another cup of coffee. :)
 
Last edited:

theo

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2007
Messages
9,032
Reaction score
2,268
Points
648
Location
New England Coast

Yes, I now remember that previous discussion. Thank you for resurrecting it.

One point I had tried to emphasize at that time (...as now) is that the underlying CC&R's (a.k.a. governing documents) are key to the whole "sunset" issue at any given individual property. People often want and seek "one size fits all" answers and insights, but that simplicity does not exist on this particular subject.

Depending on the underlying governing docs content, some places will extend upon "expiration", absent any overt intervening action. Others will terminate upon "expiration", absent any overt intervening action. Still other CC&R's address the options and details on "termination" very vaguely and poorly --- or not at all. To further complicate matters, majority vote requirements specified within some underlying CC&R's are often somewhere between very burdensome and statistically unattainable, if one is being honest and realistic.

In any case, examination and action long before actual "sunset" (termination) date is always wise and prudent. Even with the clock ticking down, today as we discuss this many FL HOA's / BoD's continue to just keep their heads stuck in the sand. Inertia, indecision and inaction may very well have unwelcome and unintended consequences in these matters.

I'm very glad that this issue has already been proactively tackled and resolved at the two early 1980's FL places where we still (...for now, anyhow) choose to own a few intervals (by voting in extensions and formal CC&R amendment) . I know of other nearby timeshare properties where inaction and / or denial seems to be the order of the day instead.
This is definitely a situation where that old saying that "ignorance is bliss" truly does not apply.
 
Last edited:
Top