2nd HGVC Deed!

[brettskyg]

two weeks ago I purchased 5,000 points for $2,000 (incuding closing costs and transfer fees) at HGVC-Tuscany Vilage-I-Drive. I was very happy with that purchase price and have not seen much that was better.

Today, I won an auction on ebay for 3,400 points for $100 (including closing costs and transfer fees) at Seaworld.

I am not sure if I really need the 8,500 points, but I was finding that some of the properies have higher point requirements, even during the gold season and I was being priced out on a point basis. The extra points will give me the flexibility to really enjoy the program. I know many will say I should have gone for Platinum points, but for the upfront fees sellers want for the platinum points, it really takes several, if not 10 years + to make back the difference in $/pt.

If I wanted to "gift" time away or even rent it, that I am not going to use, can i do so at ANY HGVC resort, or must it only be at the home property? What is the fee to do so?

 

[Jason245]

You can only rent your home week reservation according to club rules. No fees to rent it (but you use all the points related to that week). You might have been better off buying at the bay club. .very low buy in for points (1 br 4800 pt packages go for next to nothing. . 2 br 7000 pt packages can usually be had for under 2k.)

You can let guests use your reservations for non home weeks. .but you need to pay for guest cert..

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[JSparling]

While both purchase prices are decent, the MF's at both those properties are awful compared to Vegas which means in the long run you are worse off than waiting for a Vegas Strip purchase to open up. Both your units (Sea World 1BR, gold and Tuscan 2BR, gold) both have a MF/point ratio of 22 cents for 2016. At the Strip the 1BR gold cost is 16 cents and the 2BR gold is 14 cents. That's 33% less than you're paying. Over many years that really adds up. Platinum MF/point ratios at the Strip are in the 10 cent range.

It's easy to find ways to use points. If you live within a couple of hours of a HGVC resort you can take 3-day weekends now and then to burn points and just pay the $50 reservation fee. Renting is an option at your home resort using your home week reservation. But I doubt you'd find anyone who will rent a gold week in Orlando from you. If you want to rent your home week you better get a platinum week at the HHV Lagoon Tower.

Not trying to be a rain cloud. Just saying that if you really want to add points you have to focus on Vegas. And while getting the gold 3,400 week for $100 (and you'll have to pay the $315 activation fee direct to HGVC that nobody on E-Bay ever mentions) appears to be a good deal but when you're paying double the MF's as people in Vegas you'd be better off in the long run paying a few $K up front.

 

[brettskyg]

Mayb, Bay Club would have been better, but the cost of getting in for next to nothing on the 3,400 at a reltively decent maintenance i think makes this a bit better at least for a time period certain.

I did find some of the Bay club deals, but they are mostly every other year packages, the maintenance on the 4,800 points is slightly more than the maintenance on the 5,000 point package I bought, and I am East Coast based. Liklihood of me using Hawaii is less. Not to mention, all the deals I found for bayclub require buyer to pay closing and transfer. I really do not think I would be ahead when all is said and done.

OK, so you can rent your home week, but what is to stop you from re-selling your guest certificate? I am just trying to figure out what I can do If I do end up with too many points for a particualr year.

 

[brettskyg]

While both purchase prices are decent, the MF's at both those properties are awful compared to Vegas which means in the long run you are worse off than waiting for a Vegas Strip purchase to open up. Both your units (Sea World 1BR, gold and Tuscan 2BR, gold) both have a MF/point ratio of 22 cents for 2016. At the Strip the 1BR gold cost is 16 cents and the 2BR gold is 14 cents. That's 33% less than you're paying. Over many years that really adds up. Platinum MF/point ratios at the Strip are in the 10 cent range.

It's easy to find ways to use points. If you live within a couple of hours of a HGVC resort you can take 3-day weekends now and then to burn points and just pay the $50 reservation fee. Renting is an option at your home resort using your home week reservation. But I doubt you'd find anyone who will rent a gold week in Orlando from you. If you want to rent your home week you better get a platinum week at the HHV Lagoon Tower.

Not trying to be a rain cloud. Just saying that if you really want to add points you have to focus on Vegas. And while getting the gold 3,400 week for $100 (and you'll have to pay the $315 activation fee direct to HGVC that nobody on E-Bay ever mentions) appears to be a good deal but when you're paying double the MF's as people in Vegas you'd be better off in the long run paying a few $K up front.

Here is the problem with that you are saying. LV for a 1BR is $580 maintenance, Seaworld 1Br, is 795. Lets say, $200 difference. The pt activation fee is the same. Purchase price difference for 3,400 points is approx $2,500 on vegas including closing and transfer fees. My deal was $100 all-in. Therefore, I will not start to lose on my deal until 12 years have passed. Thats not even caluculating out a Net Present Value which probably makes it more like 14 years. Its really a matter of perspective, save money longer term (and we are talking $200 a year, nothing crazy), or save it today.

The same argument holds true on the platinum points. Definitly more bang for your buck for sure... but again, how long after paying a higher purchase price will it take for me to get ahead buy purchasing a platinum package ?

Platinum LV Strip 7,000 packages I cannot find for less than $11,000 including closing/transfer. Granted, you are paying $800 maintenance for 7,000 versus, $1800 for 8,400., however, you are fronting 9k extra than I paid. Again, it takes 10 years to get ahead, but I will have been colelcting the extra 1400 points per year, so lets say, 12 years. NPV it, and probably 14 years.

Again, it is not perfect and will definitly cost more in the long run, but for a defined period of time up front I will be ahead. And down the road, there is nothing in the books which says Vegas MFs will remain cheap. Everything can change.

 

[Jason245]

Mayb, Bay Club would have been better, but the cost of getting in for next to nothing on the 3,400 at a reltively decent maintenance i think makes this a bit better at least for a time period certain.

I did find some of the Bay club deals, but they are mostly every other year packages, the maintenance on the 4,800 points is slightly more than the maintenance on the 5,000 point package I bought, and I am East Coast based. Liklihood of me using Hawaii is less. Not to mention, all the deals I found for bayclub require buyer to pay closing and transfer. I really do not think I would be ahead when all is said and done.

OK, so you can rent your home week, but what is to stop you from re-selling your guest certificate? I am just trying to figure out what I can do If I do end up with too many points for a particualr year.

You have 5k points and need more.. instead of buying an every year package for 3400 points, buy an eoy package for 4800 from bay club (I have bought two for under 60 bucks all in including closing (excluding activation ). You are allowed to borrow for free(don't have to prepay mf) so if you split the 4800 into 2 you have 7400 pts per year(keeping 5k package but not getting small one).

The reason I like them is that it is easy to give them away and my buy in is next to nothing. .also with eoy contracts you can limit your unused point exposure..

My personal plan is to buy another eoy unit in the future if I start needing 2br units more. .. and when I stop needing them I will divest. .





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[JSparling]

Purchase price difference for 3,400 points is approx $2,500 on vegas including closing and transfer fees.

Platinum LV Strip 7,000 packages I cannot find for less than $11,000 including closing/transfer.

Your numbers are nowhere close to being correct:

3,400 point package at the LV Strip - I won this for $1 (not $2,500) on E-Bay in July. Here's the auction # - 191640194298.

7,000 platinum points at the LV Strip - I bought three in the past few months for $6,000 each (not $11,000).

Obviously there is a benefit to holding onto $2,500 cash right now and a time value of money element. However, the farther down the road we go with you paying $200 a year more in MF than me I will get closer and closer to passing you as far as the total cost. With no consideration for the TVM, it will take 12 years for me to pull even with you. Then in years 13+ I will take the lead. With 2 young girls I plan on using my units/points for a long, long time. After the kids are out of the house the wife and I will enjoy lavish trips all over the world. And then I'll pass everything on to the kids one day for them to enjoy.

Also, have you considered that LV Strip MF's go up about 2% per year and this year the MF's at Sea World went up about 10%? I say "about" because there is an odd situation with RE taxes there and all owners pay a slightly different amount.

Enjoy your Orlando units and the MF/point ratios that are double mine.

 

[presley]

OK, so you can rent your home week, but what is to stop you from re-selling your guest certificate? I am just trying to figure out what I can do If I do end up with too many points for a particualr year.

Nothing can stop you, but keep it on the down low. It's possible that HGVC will cancel the reservation and refuse your "guest" when they arrive if HGVC believes you are renting points. There are people who mega rent HGVC just like in every other point system. Just know that if you get caught, you have consequences.

When you end up with too many points in any year, you can deposit to RCI, rescue the points to the next year or the year before the award, convert to Hotel points. You usually only get about 3 nights in a hotel for your whole week in the timeshare, but there are times when you need a hotel and it's better than letting points expire.

 

[JSparling]

There is nothing in the books which says Vegas MFs will remain cheap. Everything can change.

True. But there is also nothing in the books which says Vegas won't stay at 2% annual increases and Sea World won't stay at 10%. Orlando MF's are 25% higher than Vegas in general. I just can't ignore that today, the known, is so much cheaper.

We all agree that nobody really knows what may happen down the road. But we also all agree that today the MF's are lower in Vegas and for the past few years the annual MF increases have been lower in Vegas. Why would you dismiss that?

Since the "you never know....." argument is valid wouldn't it make more sense to buy at the location that is lower today and historically shows a much slower rate of increase in the MF's? The Colorado Rockies have never won a World Series. If I made you bet on who would win more WS's in the next 20 years would you pick the Rockies or the Yankees? Or would you say "you never know"?

 

[Jason245]

Your numbers are nowhere close to being correct:

3,400 point package at the LV Strip - I won this for $1 (not $2,500) on E-Bay in July. Here's the auction # - 191640194298.

7,000 platinum points at the LV Strip - I bought three in the past few months for $6,000 each (not $11,000).

Obviously there is a benefit to holding onto $2,500 cash right now and a time value of money element. However, the farther down the road we go with you paying $200 a year more in MF than me I will get closer and closer to passing you as far as far as the total cost. With no consideration for the TVM, it will take 12 years for me to pull even with you. Then in years 13+ I will take the lead. With 2 young girls I plan on using my units/points for a long, long time. After the kids are out of the house the wife and I will enjoy lavish trips all over the world. And then I'll pass everything on to the kids one day for them to enjoy.

Also, have you considered that LV Strip MF's go up about 2% per year and this year the MF's at Sea World went up about 10%? I say "about" because there is an odd situation with RE taxes there and all owners pay a slightly different amount.

Enjoy your Orlando units and the MF/point ratios that are double mine.

You do realize that there are NO GUARANTEES when it comes to MF and special assessments. For all you know, next year you are hit with a 5k/week special assessment to cover a shortfall.

There are also no guarantees when it comes to prices, in fact the ONLY ownership that I know of (and someone jump in here if I am wrong) that has Gone UP in value from original purchase price from developer is DVC (since original offering, we have a family friend that bought 230 points for OKW before the construction was complete for I think under 50 or 60/point and I think they sell now for ~$70-90/point. ).

In the only HGVC sales presentation I went to, they tried to sell me on that belief that lower MF/Point ration = more valuable unit. The problem is that that ratio fluctuates (look at the 25k points rooms in HI that jumped from under 10 cents a point MF to over 12 cents a point MF in less than 2 years).

When you buy a car (which can last 30 years if taken car of right), you don't generally buy planning on breaking even with a comparable car in 10-15 years because it is more reliable.

Timeshares are vacation products with the intent on saving money vs renting similar accomodation while on vacation (a vacation they would have taken anyway). Your buy in is your sunk cost to get that long term discount. If you are saving 1.5k/year vs rental, and OP is only saving 1k/year, even though you are saving more than OP, OP is still saving significant money.

Chasing after optimal returns on these things is like trying to time the stock market, things change constantly (Hell it looks like all the fees for HGVC are going to be going up 10-20% this year). Ultimatly, in those 10-15 years a lot of things can happen, and assumptions made based on short term information projected longterm are usually wrong. And lets say next year your MF jump by 50%, are you going to sell and buy a lower MF/Point ratio? If so, what will it be worth (especially if Hilton stops ROFOR activity?)?

As the saying goes in the market, Bulls and Bears make money, Pigs get slaughtered, Cash is king.

 

[Jason245]

True. But there is also nothing in the books which says Vegas won't stay at 2% annual increases and Sea World won't stay at 10%. Orlando MF's are 25% higher than Vegas in general. I just can't ignore that today, the known, is so much cheaper.

We all agree that nobody really knows what may happen down the road. But we also all agree that today the MF's are lower in Vegas and for the past few years the annual MF increases have been lower in Vegas. Why would you dismiss that?

Since the "you never know....." argument is valid wouldn't it make more sense to buy at the location that is lower today and historically shows a much slower rate of increase in the MF's? The Colorado Rockies have never won a World Series. If I made you bet on who would win more WS's in the next 20 years would you pick the Rockies or the Yankees? Or would you say "you never know"?

Actually, if you look at the annual reports for the resorts, you can make some very solid judgements, especially when examining the funding of reserves as compared to reserve studies, the sources of revenue, types of expenses, and the amount of ownership owned by people vs developer (who will subsidize MF and/or underfund reserves in order to trick "suckers" into buying and then once the vast majority is sold, pull back that subsidy.)

I always look @ minutes for resorts, annual reports and try to assess cash flow and reserve funding. In florida, Many HOA try to keep their MF down by underfunding reserves (not just TS) and 3-10 years later, people get hit with massive special assessments causing forclosures and all kinds of troubles.

If reserves are not funded in line with the independent reserve study, I am always cautious.

 

[brettskyg]

I respect everyone;s opinions on here. I also have absolutly no doubt that you landed some sensational prices! Those prices are not available on the market today though. I browsed the listing of about 5-7 reuptable brokers and the prices I quoted were the asks. Granted they will of course come down a bit, but by how much?

Secondly, if I knew of a 3,400 point package for $1 in LV, I would probably grab it too. I just do not see them out there on the market and I have been carefulyl watching ebay for about three months now. I have seen several SILVER packages going for $1, but those are also at poor pt/$ conversions.

I think there is some value though to having a very inexpensive buy-in, knowing that over time it willcost me more. I do think though that $1 on the LV strip for 3400 points is a STEAL, and the best pricing I have found was much higher, plus closing costs. Thats not to say there wont be a better offer on one tomorrow and I can always wait and find out.

In the end with either of our methods, we are both WAY ahead of the people buying from developers and arguing over pennis in comparison to their losses.

 

[JSparling]

Stock market analogy is good. But if I've decided to buy a share of stock and I'm considering Option A and B and A has a much worse historical return why would I ignore that information? Both might tank tomorrow, or A "might" triple it's value next week, but absent any factual information about the future I think I'll buy the one that historically has performed better. No?

As for "investment value" or the idea of selling our units one day to make money (or even just recover some of our initial buy-in) I also agree.....we've all got to realize that's a terrible idea. You have to buy-in assuming you'll never get a dime back. Buy with the idea that you're investing in your family and memories; not creating a portfolio to sell for a profit later. You are pre-paying for lavish vacations and doing so at a heavily discounted rate.

 

[JSparling]

I always look @ minutes for resorts, annual reports and try to assess cash flow and reserve funding. In florida, Many HOA try to keep their MF down by underfunding reserves (not just TS) and 3-10 years later, people get hit with massive special assessments causing forclosures and all kinds of troubles.
.

Brilliant. I knew you had a gem hidden under your armor facade!

 

[JSparling]

In the end with either of our methods, we are both WAY ahead of the people buying from developers and arguing over pennis in comparison to their losses.

You can say that again! And nice typo.

Welcome to the HGVC family and I hope you continue to get involved on the boards and ask a lot of questions. HGVC is a great program especially with all the point flexibility. Whether you buy in cheap and get a little higher MF or pay the premium on day 1 for lower MF's - my rule of thumb is getting an average cost per point between 20 and 22 cents over 10 years. If I can hit that mark I'm a happy camper. Of course a "special assessment" or a volcano exploding onto Kings' Land one day could kill my portfolio, but for now, for the known, I'm doing alright.

 

[elleny76]

True... I have been looking at Ebay lately and there is a bunch of desperate people bidding last minute for high prices and wondering if they know what they doing. You got a good 3400 p for $100 (sean) I do watch all the hgvc not to buy but to see the craziness. Hopefully buyers can start thinking and calm down so we all win and sellers finally are free of TS and New buyers get good deals.
I can see a lots of HGVC coming to resale soon... So many in Ebay at this moment. I am just waiting for the right moment today or dec 2017. I have more timeshares so I am not in a rush. Looking for hi points, low MF and a great resale price... Pm if you have one (not 5$-6K deals... except for10k points)

I am learning everyday the HGVC and its cool. I still love my wyndham as well

I respect everyone;s opinions on here. I also have absolutly no doubt that you landed some sensational prices! Those prices are not available on the market today though. I browsed the listing of about 5-7 reuptable brokers and the prices I quoted were the asks. Granted they will of course come down a bit, but by how much?

Secondly, if I knew of a 3,400 point package for $1 in LV, I would probably grab it too. I just do not see them out there on the market and I have been carefulyl watching ebay for about three months now. I have seen several SILVER packages going for $1, but those are also at poor pt/$ conversions.

I think there is some value though to having a very inexpensive buy-in, knowing that over time it willcost me more. I do think though that $1 on the LV strip for 3400 points is a STEAL, and the best pricing I have found was much higher, plus closing costs. Thats not to say there wont be a better offer on one tomorrow and I can always wait and find out.

In the end with either of our methods, we are both WAY ahead of the people buying from developers and arguing over pennis in comparison to their losses.

 

[Jason245]

I respect everyone;s opinions on here. I also have absolutly no doubt that you landed some sensational prices! Those prices are not available on the market today though. I browsed the listing of about 5-7 reuptable brokers and the prices I quoted were the asks. Granted they will of course come down a bit, but by how much?

Secondly, if I knew of a 3,400 point package for $1 in LV, I would probably grab it too. I just do not see them out there on the market and I have been carefulyl watching ebay for about three months now. I have seen several SILVER packages going for $1, but those are also at poor pt/$ conversions.

I think there is some value though to having a very inexpensive buy-in, knowing that over time it willcost me more. I do think though that $1 on the LV strip for 3400 points is a STEAL, and the best pricing I have found was much higher, plus closing costs. Thats not to say there wont be a better offer on one tomorrow and I can always wait and find out.

In the end with either of our methods, we are both WAY ahead of the people buying from developers and arguing over pennis in comparison to their losses.

in less than 3 weeks 3 bay club units have gone for nothing or next to nothing.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bay-Club-Wa...re-Waikoloa-Hawaii-FREE-CLOSING-/371474725921



http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Bay-Clu...209056?hash=item567d3b0ba0:g:Ae8AAMXQbXtRDB6x

Total cost on the 2BR was ~$1k (2016MF don't really count as a BS cost)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/THE-BAY-CLU...853046?hash=item2ee758d076:g:Vf8AAOSw5VFWIGwx

 

[Jason245]

Stock market analogy is good. But if I've decided to buy a share of stock and I'm considering Option A and B and A has a much worse historical return why would I ignore that information? Both might tank tomorrow, or A "might" triple it's value next week, but absent any factual information about the future I think I'll buy the one that historically has performed better. No?

Nope..

Never forget the disclaimer about historical returns not being representative of future performance.

For Example, based on your assessment, Volkswagen might have been a good investment 6 months ago, Look at Transocean from 2000 till 2007


Never focus on historical performance, even in investments. Read the intelligent investor, best investment book you can buy for money.

 

[Jason245]

Brilliant. I knew you had a gem hidden under your armor facade!

I live in florida and use that as an example. That HOA reserve problem is everywhere.

 

[elleny76]

Can you please tell me what $150 club fee covers?

Would that be to be enroll in HGVS?

Looking into a contract that was deeded but converted to points and it says..
"if new owner do not want to enroll in hgvc will pay a fee of $695?"...
very confused
Thanks

I live in florida and use that as an example. That HOA reserve problem is everywhere.

 

[brettskyg]

in less than 3 weeks 3 bay club units have gone for nothing or next to nothing.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bay-Club-Wa...re-Waikoloa-Hawaii-FREE-CLOSING-/371474725921



http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Bay-Clu...209056?hash=item567d3b0ba0:g:Ae8AAMXQbXtRDB6x

Total cost on the 2BR was ~$1k (2016MF don't really count as a BS cost)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/THE-BAY-CLU...853046?hash=item2ee758d076:g:Vf8AAOSw5VFWIGwx

However, look at the first two EBAY positing, each of them says that there are NO HGVC POINTS.

I was told by a few brokers during my research that some of the affilate properties (in the estoppel?) do not confer the right to HGVC points. Perhaps somone else can shed some light onto this, but I did notice each of thoese auctions and I ignored them specifically because they do not get you into the HGVC program!

 

[Jason245]

However, look at the first two EBAY positing, each of them says that there are NO HGVC POINTS.

I was told by a few brokers during my research that some of the affilate properties (in the estoppel?) do not confer the right to HGVC points. Perhaps somone else can shed some light onto this, but I did notice each of thoese auctions and I ignored them specifically because they do not get you into the HGVC program!

All Bay club intervals can be enrolled into HGVC (you just need to pay the $315 fee).

once enrolled you get the points. Enrollment is an option.

 

[Jason245]

Can you please tell me what $150 club fee covers?

Would that be to be enroll in HGVS?

Looking into a contract that was deeded but converted to points and it says..
"if new owner do not want to enroll in hgvc will pay a fee of $695?"...
very confused
Thanks

Currently it is $150 a year (2015 was 140) for membership fee. You get a half assed magazine, access to their amazing website and phone operators (where almost all activities cost additional fees). you also get access to RCI.

If you want to exchange your interval in the HGVC system, you need your membership.


http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215996&highlight=club

Above thread should answer most questions you have.

 

[brettskyg]

All Bay club intervals can be enrolled into HGVC (you just need to pay the $315 fee).

once enrolled you get the points. Enrollment is an option.

Why would the seller not advertise it then?

 

[Jason245]

Why would the seller not advertise it then?

You would have to ask them that question as they made the ad.

My guess is ignorance, or a desire to not be involved with the enrollment process.

Ultimatly, my philosophy is that the only way to get a good deal on something is to know MORE than the sales person and the general public, their errors/ignorance = my bargains.