[ 2017 ] New Westin Flex

[DannyTS]

Vistana acquires inventory through asking owners to trade in their timeshare weeks for points and collecting more $. They kill 2 birds with one stone that way. Until the Flex pools get large and diverse enough there will be availability issues.

Marriott does that currently with their point systems. So far what I see on MVC point systems I have no complaints.

I think I read in the annual report that the main source was repossessions which also allows them to get new owners into the system.

 

[hawaii gal]

Anyone know if there are going to be any guidelines about volume of flex versus week owners at each resort? I ask because it seems obvious that as more and more flex are sold, that the 'pool' of week based reservation availability will shrink.

 

[mig1]

Just got back from an owner update at WMH. We went in with the mindset that we were only there for the StarPoints which we are using to visit our son in college later in the year. I was upfront about the fact that "we were only here for the points."

As you would expect, the bulk of the presentation was Westin Flex and how it was a much better option than our current ownership which is a Platinum week at WKORV. Because we live in LA, we seldom use our ownership in Maui; mostly we find ourselves using it at WMH or WDW with an occasional KV trip. Our salesperson told us that we would be better off "trading in" our Maui property in on the current "Flex" program because moving forward, ONLY "Flex" is being offered at WDW so if we wanted to continue to come to the desert availability would be severely restricted because all of the new owners would have access to make reservations at 12 months out.

When I raised the issue that capacity issues moving forward are speculative at best as this program is so new, that was met with a rather surly response. Because "Flex" comes with a lot of "versatility" in that it has 12 month reservation window, short stay accommodations, more trade value with II (not an issue as we don't use II), as well as trading our week would allow an upgrade to 3*.

I was well prepared for this presentation as I studied this thread to get a sense of what the experts here seem to feel about this new "flex" program.

We walked out declining this as well as the explorer package offered for 1895 which would have given us 80,000 SO's as well as another 3 nights at WDW, and the cost applied to a developer purchase.

After 15 years as an owner and a fairly good basic understanding of how to use our ownership to suit us best......is there really NO advantage to "flex?" I wasn't excited about paying another $25,000 for the luxury when I know that I could likely find a mandatory property on the resale market for that price that would at least allow me to make reservations inside the VSE network. Granted the move up to 3* has a bit of appeal, but the increase in annual MF's balances that out.

But I have to say that everytime I attend one of these updates, the sales people make it sound so elegant and seamless with respect to how many different ways you can use your ownership. However, in my reality, I have never found it as easy as they make it seem. It's one thing to show me a screenshot of an EXPEDIA site that shows a one week reservation at a resort for 5 or 10K....but it's entirely different when I try to rent it for that much. Plus, for all I know, they could be showing me screen shots of rack rates several years ago that have absolutely no relation to the market today.

All negativity aside.......is there NO reason, no advantage for me to consider FLEX? They told me that I could buy FLEX and then just rent out my room over the Coachella Music Festival every year and pay my MF's and over time pay for the entire cost of the ownership itself. While that MAY be true to a degree it just seems like a very expensive "leap of faith."

So, with all of that said......I put it to you experts who have a much deeper understanding of this than I do......is Flex simply NOT worth it on any level, or is this worthy of me taking a serious look at?

Thanks for all of your insight!!

 

[lizap]

Just got back from an owner update at WMH. We went in with the mindset that we were only there for the StarPoints which we are using to visit our son in college later in the year. I was upfront about the fact that "we were only here for the points."

As you would expect, the bulk of the presentation was Westin Flex and how it was a much better option than our current ownership which is a Platinum week at WKORV. Because we live in LA, we seldom use our ownership in Maui; mostly we find ourselves using it at WMH or WDW with an occasional KV trip. Our salesperson told us that we would be better off "trading in" our Maui property in on the current "Flex" program because moving forward, ONLY "Flex" is being offered at WDW so if we wanted to continue to come to the desert availability would be severely restricted because all of the new owners would have access to make reservations at 12 months out.

When I raised the issue that capacity issues moving forward are speculative at best as this program is so new, that was met with a rather surly response. Because "Flex" comes with a lot of "versatility" in that it has 12 month reservation window, short stay accommodations, more trade value with II (not an issue as we don't use II), as well as trading our week would allow an upgrade to 3*.

I was well prepared for this presentation as I studied this thread to get a sense of what the experts here seem to feel about this new "flex" program.

We walked out declining this as well as the explorer package offered for 1895 which would have given us 80,000 SO's as well as another 3 nights at WDW, and the cost applied to a developer purchase.

After 15 years as an owner and a fairly good basic understanding of how to use our ownership to suit us best......is there really NO advantage to "flex?" I wasn't excited about paying another $25,000 for the luxury when I know that I could likely find a mandatory property on the resale market for that price that would at least allow me to make reservations inside the VSE network. Granted the move up to 3* has a bit of appeal, but the increase in annual MF's balances that out.

But I have to say that everytime I attend one of these updates, the sales people make it sound so elegant and seamless with respect to how many different ways you can use your ownership. However, in my reality, I have never found it as easy as they make it seem. It's one thing to show me a screenshot of an EXPEDIA site that shows a one week reservation at a resort for 5 or 10K....but it's entirely different when I try to rent it for that much. Plus, for all I know, they could be showing me screen shots of rack rates several years ago that have absolutely no relation to the market today.

All negativity aside.......is there NO reason, no advantage for me to consider FLEX? They told me that I could buy FLEX and then just rent out my room over the Coachella Music Festival every year and pay my MF's and over time pay for the entire cost of the ownership itself. While that MAY be true to a degree it just seems like a very expensive "leap of faith."

So, with all of that said......I put it to you experts who have a much deeper understanding of this than I do......is Flex simply NOT worth it on any level, or is this worthy of me taking a serious look at?

Thanks for all of your insight!!

Remember, these guys are just trying to make a living. There's no telling what Marriott will do with FLEX.

 

[Anne&Jim]

Just got back from an owner update at WMH. We went in with the mindset that we were only there for the StarPoints which we are using to visit our son in college later in the year. I was upfront about the fact that "we were only here for the points."

As you would expect, the bulk of the presentation was Westin Flex and how it was a much better option than our current ownership which is a Platinum week at WKORV. Because we live in LA, we seldom use our ownership in Maui; mostly we find ourselves using it at WMH or WDW with an occasional KV trip. Our salesperson told us that we would be better off "trading in" our Maui property in on the current "Flex" program because moving forward, ONLY "Flex" is being offered at WDW so if we wanted to continue to come to the desert availability would be severely restricted because all of the new owners would have access to make reservations at 12 months out.

When I raised the issue that capacity issues moving forward are speculative at best as this program is so new, that was met with a rather surly response. Because "Flex" comes with a lot of "versatility" in that it has 12 month reservation window, short stay accommodations, more trade value with II (not an issue as we don't use II), as well as trading our week would allow an upgrade to 3*.

I was well prepared for this presentation as I studied this thread to get a sense of what the experts here seem to feel about this new "flex" program.

We walked out declining this as well as the explorer package offered for 1895 which would have given us 80,000 SO's as well as another 3 nights at WDW, and the cost applied to a developer purchase.

After 15 years as an owner and a fairly good basic understanding of how to use our ownership to suit us best......is there really NO advantage to "flex?" I wasn't excited about paying another $25,000 for the luxury when I know that I could likely find a mandatory property on the resale market for that price that would at least allow me to make reservations inside the VSE network. Granted the move up to 3* has a bit of appeal, but the increase in annual MF's balances that out.

But I have to say that everytime I attend one of these updates, the sales people make it sound so elegant and seamless with respect to how many different ways you can use your ownership. However, in my reality, I have never found it as easy as they make it seem. It's one thing to show me a screenshot of an EXPEDIA site that shows a one week reservation at a resort for 5 or 10K....but it's entirely different when I try to rent it for that much. Plus, for all I know, they could be showing me screen shots of rack rates several years ago that have absolutely no relation to the market today.

All negativity aside.......is there NO reason, no advantage for me to consider FLEX? They told me that I could buy FLEX and then just rent out my room over the Coachella Music Festival every year and pay my MF's and over time pay for the entire cost of the ownership itself. While that MAY be true to a degree it just seems like a very expensive "leap of faith."

So, with all of that said......I put it to you experts who have a much deeper understanding of this than I do......is Flex simply NOT worth it on any level, or is this worthy of me taking a serious look at?

Thanks for all of your insight!!

Honestly, no one knows what the flex availability will be, now or later, but we all know the desert properties are in the flex program because of the difficulty in keeping owners of the low season weeks. Assuming it’s a mix of seasons, and that most people will prefer the higher seasons, SOMEONE in flex will be making do with low season (hot summer).

If you mainly use the desert properties, you might want to consider selling your Hawaii week (on TUG or Redweek) and buying a RESALE desert property for the lower MFs. Whether or not that makes any sense for you depends on how many future trips you think you will make and when the MF difference catches up with resale price you pay minus the resale price you get from your Hawaii week (you will probably get more for your Hawaii week than you spend for your desert week, making the MF savings immediate.)

Anyone who owns the season can try to make a reservation to rent Coachella week — that is true with or without flex. Also, why would you make a purchase just to try to rent it? Purchase to use, and rent only if you cannot use it.

I would not consider flex because of the additional upfront cost, but mostly because you are not guaranteed a season — IMNSHO. If you wanted a low season week, you could get one for free on TUG — why pay flex prices? As for 3* — you would have to decide if the cost to get there is worth the benefit. For people who use the hotels a lot, it may be worth it. But if all you want is the best price for your guaranteed season in the desert, buy that (resale) and be happy!


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[cubigbird]

In my opinion the Westin Flex “premium” is not worth the non-guarantees. As previously highlighted, you aren’t guaranteed a week in any season. Everything is subject to availability. If I own a TS, I better have a guarantee, as I paid for it. Not the case here.

Sales will always put lipstick on whatever “inventory” they are selling. I remember when sales proclaimed WSJ-CV was the greatest thing since sliced bread, then it became something else. Sales will always tell you that whatever they are selling is superior to whatever you own.

Back to the old addage of owning where you want to go, I can’t see a benefit of Flex given the cost and it isn’t guaranteed to show availability where you want to go. It seems to be nothing more than a repackage of old inventory with lipstick on it. Without the introduction of a large amount of new inventory, we may still see these churns in order fuel the sales department.

 

[DannyTS]

Anyone who owns the season can try to make a reservation to rent Coachella week — that is true with or without flex.


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I am starting to think that the flex programs may have a big advantage in booking the best weeks since they do not need to wait until 12 months before the Fr or the Sa of the week, they can make a reservation that starts Th, We or even Tu.
Because of the floating Vistana system, a trust that owns 20% of the inventory can have an unfair advantage in getting the best deals.

 

[Anne&Jim]

I am starting to think that the flex programs may have a big advantage in booking the best weeks since they do not need to wait until 12 months before the Fr or the Sa of the week, they can make a reservation that starts Th, We or even Tu.
Because of the floating Vistana system, a trust that owns 20% of the inventory can have an unfair advantage in getting the best deals.

Hmmm, that’s an interesting thought. Can you please explain how a Flex owner might be able to book a Coachella weekend earlier than a weeks owner? I’m not understanding that. Also, please explain your reasoning for how “a trust that owns 20% of the inventory can have an unfair advantage in getting the best deals”? Thanks!


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[DannyTS]

Hmmm, that’s an interesting thought. Can you please explain how a Flex owner might be able to book a Coachella weekend earlier than a weeks owner? I’m not understanding that. Also, please explain your reasoning for how “a trust that owns 20% of the inventory can have an unfair advantage in getting the best deals”? Thanks!


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Say you have a resort with 10 condos and the year is 10 weeks long (to simplify it). So, you have a total of 100 weeks (or owners if they own just one). Say Flex owns 20% of the inventory (20 weeks) while the week owners have 80 weeks.

Say the best week of the year is WEEK #3 and the check in is only Friday (for regular week owners)

EXACTLY 10 weeks before the Friday of WEEK #3 (the year has 10 weeks) regular week owners will try to make a reservation for that week, right?

Except that the day before, on Thursday, 10 Flex owners booked (Thu-Thu) ALL the rooms of WEEK #3 (remember the resort only has 10 condos) leaving NONE for the regular week owners. So a group that owns only 20% of the inventory can book ALL condos of the best week of the year, #3.

Am I wrong here? I do not own any Flex by the way.

 

[Anne&Jim]

Say you have a resort with 10 condos and the year is 10 weeks long (to simplify it). So, you have a total of 100 weeks (or owners if they own just one). Say Flex owns 20% of the inventory (20 weeks) while the week owners have 80 weeks.

Say the best week of the year is WEEK #3 and all the check in is only Friday (for regular week owners)

EXACTLY 10 weeks before the Friday of WEEK #3 (the year has 10 weeks) regular week owners will try to make a reservation for that week, right?

Except that the day before, on Thursday, 10 Flex owners booked (Thu-Thu) ALL the rooms of WEEK #3 (remember the resort only has 10 condos) leaving NONE for the regular week owners. So a group that owns only 20% of the inventory can book ALL condos of the best week of the year, #3.

Am I wrong here? I do not own any Flex by the way.

Are weeks owners limited to only Friday, Saturday or Sunday check-in dates? I could have sworn I’ve seen the ability to have Wednesday or Thursday when I’ve been reserving over 8 months out...am I remembering that incorrectly? What I think Flex owners get at 12 months out is the ability to make shorter than 7 night reservations, which could help people trying to rent Coachella, since it’s on two consecutive weekends, if I recall correctly.


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[DannyTS]

Are weeks owners limited to only Friday, Saturday or Sunday check-in dates? I could have sworn I’ve seen the ability to have Wednesday or Thursday when I’ve been reserving over 8 months out...am I remembering that incorrectly? What I think Flex owners get at 12 months out is the ability to make shorter than 7 night reservations, which could help people trying to rent Coachella, since it’s on two consecutive weekends, if I recall correctly.


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Yes, week owners can only reserve (in my example) Friday. The Flex owners can reserve 1 year before (like the week owners) but they can start a day or 2 before because they are not bound by the end of the week check in. Do not mix Flex home reservations (1 year in advance) with Staroptions reservation (8 months)

 

[dioxide45]

I had read in this thread that Coachella wasn't really a great week for renting. So it seems that those claims by a sales rep may be overblown. It seems that the crowd; the Instagram and millennial generation, aren't really considering timeshare for their rental needs?

 

[hawaii gal]

Yes, week owners can only reserve (in my example) Friday. The Flex owners can reserve 1 year before (like the week owners) but they can start a day or 2 before because they are not bound by the end of the week check in. Do not mix Flex home reservations (1 year in advance) with Staroptions reservation (8 months)

and that is our very real concern....that as more people convert or purchase FLEX that the 'pool' of designated availability for deeded owners will shrink

 

[vacationtime1]

and that is our very real concern....that as more people convert or purchase FLEX that the 'pool' of designated availability for deeded owners will shrink

It is true that the "pool" of units for deeded owners will shrink over time, but it is also true that the number of weeks owned by deed (rather than by Flex) will also shrink over time -- and in exactly the same proportion. The number of weeks available for each deeded week always remains the same: 1:1.

 

[duke]

I had read in this thread that Coachella wasn't really a great week for renting. So it seems that those claims by a sales rep may be overblown. It seems that the crowd; the Instagram and millennial generation, aren't really considering timeshare for their rental needs?

Dioxide is Correct. Coachella rentals don't happen. People who go to Coachella don't have the cash to rent. They are cheap and unreliable. Reservations for that week are not difficult to make as well. The Classic Rock bands are long gone and with them went people who have a job and can pay their bills without living with their parents.

 

[bigbillf]

I went back and forth with Vistana on Sheraton Flex. How flex hurts deeded Owners is that all Flex owners step in as Home Resort Reservation owners at any Flex Resort as long as they have enough options to cover the reservation. So at 12 months out all Flex owners can make a reservation, not restricted to 7 days or Fri/Sat/Sun check in, at any of the Flex resorts. As for deeded owners, only those owners at the Resort that own the same type villa in the same season can make a Home Resort Reservation and they are restricted to 7 days with Fri/Sat/Sun check in. So as long as there are unallocated units at a particular resort in the Flex trust, then they can make a reservation in the 12 - 9 month period. I am so against flex programs as Vistana is profiting by depleting the available inventory that is available to deeded owners and diluting deeded Owners Home Reservation rights, a right by deed, without compensating deeded Owners.

 

[VacationForever]

I went back and forth with Vistana on Sheraton Flex. How flex hurts deeded Owners is that all Flex owners step in as Home Resort Reservation owners at any Flex Resort as long as they have enough options to cover the reservation. So at 12 months out all Flex owners can make a reservation, not restricted to 7 days or Fri/Sat/Sun check in, at any of the Flex resorts. As for deeded owners, only those owners at the Resort that own the same type villa in the same season can make a Home Resort Reservation and they are restricted to 7 days with Fri/Sat/Sun check in. So as long as there are unallocated units at a particular resort in the Flex trust, then they can make a reservation in the 12 - 9 month period. I am so against flex programs as Vistana is profiting by depleting the available inventory that is available to deeded owners and diluting deeded Owners Home Reservation rights, a right by deed, without compensating deeded Owners.

They are all in separate inventory buckets.

 

[vacationtime1]

I went back and forth with Vistana on Sheraton Flex. How flex hurts deeded Owners is that all Flex owners step in as Home Resort Reservation owners at any Flex Resort as long as they have enough options to cover the reservation. So at 12 months out all Flex owners can make a reservation, not restricted to 7 days or Fri/Sat/Sun check in, at any of the Flex resorts. As for deeded owners, only those owners at the Resort that own the same type villa in the same season can make a Home Resort Reservation and they are restricted to 7 days with Fri/Sat/Sun check in. So as long as there are unallocated units at a particular resort in the Flex trust, then they can make a reservation in the 12 - 9 month period. I am so against flex programs as Vistana is profiting by depleting the available inventory that is available to deeded owners and diluting deeded Owners Home Reservation rights, a right by deed, without compensating deeded Owners.

Nothing new here. Weeks owners may make reservations from the weeks "pool" and Flex owners may make reservations from the Flex "pool". Flex owners may not reserve from the weeks pool because the Flex trust does not own those units. Anything the sales staff said to the contrary is simply wrong.

 

[DannyTS]

Nothing new here. Weeks owners may make reservations from the weeks "pool" and Flex owners may make reservations from the Flex "pool". Flex owners may not reserve from the weeks pool because the Flex trust does not own those units. Anything the sales staff said to the contrary is simply wrong.

I know some people are not happy with what may be baseless speculation. On the flip side, why would people defend Vistana without any inside information about how the reservation system works? Not in theory, but testing in real time the actual reservations from all groups of owners. Programming the beast can be rather complicated if not done properly. Who the heck knows what the reality is?

 

[VacationForever]

I know some people are not happy with what may be baseless speculation. On the flip side, why would people defend Vistana without any inside information about how the reservation system works? Not in theory, but testing in real time the actual reservations from all groups of owners. Programming the beast can be rather complicated if not done properly. Who the heck knows what the reality is?

Because we long time owners have found no evidence to support the paranoia that Vistana is playing dirty with the inventories. You are just spinning with your wheels causing unnecessary angst. If you don't trust Vistana then you should not have bought it.

 

[DannyTS]

Because we long time owners have found no evidence to support the paranoia that Vistana is playing dirty with the inventories. You are just spinning with your wheels causing unnecessary angst. If you don't trust Vistana then you should not have bought it.

Let me just say that i have nothing but respect for veteran TUGgers as well as for Vistana so far.

My questions arise solely from other TUGgers reporting that in the last couple of years they could not book for example weeks 51 or 52 at Lagunamar. They said they were doing the same as before and midnight reservation did not work for them at all. I also read comments (by veteran owners and TUGgers like yourself) saying that there was plenty of empirical evidence that there are certain problems.

If this is creating unnecessary angst, Vistana should clarify it. Asking questions keeps them honest, sorry i do not agree that we should always just assume that everything is ok.

 

[VacationForever]

Let me just say that i have nothing but respect for veteran TUGgers as well as for Vistana so far.

My questions arise solely from other TUGgers reporting that in the last couple of years could not book for example weeks 51 or 52 at Lagunamar. They said they were doing the same as before and midnight reservation did not work for them at all. If this is creating unnecessary angst, Vistana should clarify it. Asking questions keeps them honest, sorry i do not agree that we should always just assume that everything is ok.

Westin Lagunamar's popularity has increased significantly through the past few years. I was probably one of the first ones on TUG that said it was and still is my favorite Starwood (Vistana) resort. Many anti-Mexico TUGgers challenged my posts back then. We used to be able to trade into WLR in II through most parts of the year and they were regularly deposited into II. Increasing difficulty in booking Weeks 51 and 52 is directly related to the increasing popularity of WLR. I remember asking one of the moderators here who runs a rental on the side when I indicated that I wanted to buy a fixed W52 at WLR and she said Mexico properties carried low rental. If you look at the rental market now, WLR commands good rental $. The desirability has changed in WLR and that is a fact.

 

[canesfan]

Let me just say that i have nothing but respect for veteran TUGgers as well as for Vistana so far.

My questions arise solely from other TUGgers reporting that in the last couple of years they could not book for example weeks 51 or 52 at Lagunamar. They said they were doing the same as before and midnight reservation did not work for them at all. I also read comments (by veteran owners and TUGgers like yourself) saying that there was plenty of empirical evidence that there are certain problems.

If this is creating unnecessary angst, Vistana should clarify it. Asking questions keeps them honest, sorry i do not agree that we should always just assume that everything is ok.

What you are reporting about week 51 & 52 at WLR has absolutely nothing to do with Flex. The Mexico Flex product hasn’t been around for the “last couple of years” to be affecting it. This year would be the first year that reservations for 51 & 52 might be impacted. The fact of the matter is Lagunamar has become more popular and the economy is doing better with people traveling. That’s why reservations at more popular times are harder to get, but not impossible. Also remember TUGers are a small sample of owners.


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[DannyTS]

Westin Lagunamar's popularity has increased significantly through the past few years. I was probably one of the first ones on TUG that said it was and still is my favorite Starwood (Vistana) resort. Many anti-Mexico TUGgers challenged my posts back then. We used to be able to trade into WLR in II through most parts of the year and they were regularly deposited into II. Increasing difficulty in booking Weeks 51 and 52 is directly related to the increasing popularity of WLR. I remember asking one of the moderators here who runs a rental on the side when I indicated that I wanted to buy a fixed W52 at WLR and she said Mexico properties carried low rental. If you look at the rental market now, WLR commands good rental $. The desirability has changed in WLR and that is a fact.

We love it, we just bought 2 platinum weeks @WLR (and a Bella). I hope you are right. Personally I am not even sure i really want to go 51-52 and fight with the chair hoggers (is this the official expression now lol?). At the same time people want to feel like they are treated fairly.

 

[VacationForever]

We love it, we just bought 2 platinum weeks @WLR (and a Bella). I hope you are right. Personally I am not even sure i really want to go 51-52 and fight with the chair hoggers (is this the official expression now lol?). At the same time people want to feel like they are treated fairly.

I suspect many of the people who book 51-52 to rent them out because they fetch great rental price. Competition for the same weeks is what is causing the difficulty in booking them.

Like you, we just absolutely love the color of the water, incredible infinity pools, and the hospitality of the locals. We never had bad service at Oceano where we ate most of our breakfast or restaurants around the resort, we always enjoyed our stays.