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[ 2012 ] Help please! Canadians buying into Hawaii

DianeG

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Hi!

Since January, I have bought into weeks at Paniolo Greens:

1. One was bought at the end of Jan. on eBay from CJ Timeshares. All the paperwork was done electronically, by Timeshare Closing Services. There was no "paper" contract or deed requiring our physical signatures, nor did we need the services of a notary (since there were no physical signatures). The deed was registered in Hawaii and the title transfer was done at the resort last week. I assume that I should get my copy of the actual deed back shortly. The Title & Escrow Supervisor for Paniolo Greens / Equiant confirmed the change of ownership yesterday.

(Start of updated info)
2. The week before in January, I also bought two others from Bill Kingsley, of Pagosa Springs CO, who does business under the names of whslers970 on eBay, Timeshare Shack (Redweek, etc.), and Quantum Travel Group. He resells a lot of Wyndham Pagosa units. Closing was to be done by Cheryl Mulberry of Capital Resort Transfers, AKA Dutton Creek Enterprise. The closing process has been especially difficult and totally lacked any transparency whatsoever... I was not advised of a problem until I found out by myself just AFTER the deadline for leaving eBay feedback had passed. I finally heard back from Bill Kingsley about the status of this purchase and he's on it - but only now.

Essentially, the closing company (Cheryl Mulberry) is no longer handling Bill Kingley's business, but he left my file with her since she had started the process. The escrow company in Hawaii had re-sent the signed documents to her sometime in the last two weeks. I was told today that my notary's signature and seal had been rejected. No one bothered to advise me of this until I called the seller's office today (Timeshare Shack). I paid the closing fees and the portion of the maintenance fees owed directly to Cheryl, as requested by the seller. Although I haven't been "snowed" in Colorado, the service has been so below par that it's unacceptable. I would discourage anyone from dealing with her or her closing company.
(End of updated info)

3. Finally, I have already hit a snag with the last PG EOY that I bought last week, closing to be done by Stewart Vacation Ownership.

With the very latest week, I am asked to :

a) provide my Canadian SIN number (which I refuse)
b) get our physical signatures notarized by an American notary public in the U.S. or by a consular officer at the American Embassy or nearest consulate.

I have been told by SVO that this requirement is absolute and is demanded by the Hawaii Escrow and Title company, based in Honolulu (not BBB accredited).

I had no choice at all in who the sellers have hired to handle the closings, and who was sub-contracted for the Hawaii escrow services. Now I'm facing extra expenses and a lot of lost time.
 
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DianeG

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Now my questions:

- Since the CJ Timeshares / Timeshare Closing Services week went through so smoothly, ONLY with electronic documents - no physical signatures and no notary needed - why would I be having such an issue regarding an American notary "requirement"? This week has successfully made it to the transfert of title with the resort directly. I had understood that this was the last step.

- Have other Canadian Tuggers encountered this problem recently? (since the Hawaii escrow change)

- If there truly isn't the necessity for an American notarized signature for Hawaii TS escrow and deed transfers?

Thanks for hanging in until this point, any guidance and advice that you can share about all of this would be greatly appreciated!

Edited to add: these were all $1 or give-away transactions, all with all/partial closing costs and transfer fees paid by me.
 
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DianeG

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Notarized signatures for Canadian buyers of Hawaii TS

I'm posting this as a FYI for other Canadian buyers who may run into this situation; and, who may be asked to jump through unecessary hoops when buying into Hawaii.

This evening I spoke directly with the State of Hawaii's Bureau of Conveyances (BOC), regarding the need for notarized signatures by an American notary public, on the deed documents for TS purchases. I spoke with an officer named Scott Chang, of the Regular System Receiving dept., in charge of timeshares for the state of Hawaii - phone number 808-587-0147.

BUYERS do not need a signature on the TS deed in Hawaii - the signature line remains blank. As the grantee, they DO NOT need to sign. If there is no signature, there is nothing to notarize. If there is nothing to notarize, there is no need to seek an American notary public. The State of Hawaii only requires the SELLER to sign the deed and have the signatures properly notarized.

However, once a buyer's physical signature appears -- the authorized notary requirements kick in. Once the deed was signed by us, as instructed by Cheryl Mulberry of Capital Resort Transfers, then we ran smack into the issue of the proper notarization of our signatures on the documents, just as if we were sellers...

SELLER signatures are properly notarized in the State of Hawaii if signed by an American notary public. In the case of Canadian SELLERS, Hawaii also accepts the notary seal of a U.S. Consular Officer or a Canadian notary's seal in combination with a red "Apostille"-like seal from another authorized Canadian notary (a notary's notary).

This is why the electronic document filing for the first TS week at Paniolo Greens went through so smoothly with Timeshare Closing Services - we did not have a physical signature on the actual deed. No signature = no need for a notary.

So, we should not have signed the other deeds in the first place -- there was absolutely no need to. We were subjected to a "broiler template" work method that did not at all account for: a) the fact that we were not U.S.-based buyers, and b) that it was a Hawaii TS property.

So, for Canadian BUYERS, the key seems to be to NOT physically sign the TS deed. The State of Hawaii's BOC is fine with this and it avoids a lot of unnecessary hassles, expense and stress.

I hope this helps for future reference.
 
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Dave H

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I'm posting this as a FYI for other Canadian buyers who may run into this situation; and, who may be asked to jump through unecessary hoops when buying into Hawaii.

This evening I spoke directly with the State of Hawaii's Bureau of Conveyances (BOC), regarding the need for notarized signatures by an American notary public, on the deed documents for TS purchases. I spoke with an officer named Scott Chang, of the Regular System Receiving dept., in charge of timeshares for the state of Hawaii - phone number 808-587-0147.

BUYERS do not need a signature on the TS deed in Hawaii - the signature line remains blank. As the grantee, they DO NOT need to sign. If there is no signature, there is nothing to notarize. If there is nothing to notarize, there is no need to seek an American notary public. The State of Hawaii only requires the SELLER to sign the deed and have the signatures properly notarized.

However, once a buyer's physical signature appears -- the authorized notary requirements kick in. Once the deed was signed by us, as instructed by Cheryl Mulberry of Capital Resort Transfers, then we ran smack into the issue of the proper notarization of our signatures on the documents, just as if we were sellers...

SELLER signatures are properly notarized in the State of Hawaii if signed by an American notary public. In the case of Canadian SELLERS, Hawaii also accepts the notary seal of a U.S. Consular Officer or a Canadian notary's seal in combination with a red "Apostille" seal from another authorized Canadian notary (a notary's notary).

This is why the electronic document filing for the first TS week at Paniolo Greens went through so smoothly with Timeshare Closing Services - we did not have a physical signature on the actual deed. No signature = no need for a notary.

So, we should not have signed the other deeds in the first place -- there was absolutely no need to. We were subjected to a "broiler template" work method that did not at all account for: a) the fact that we were not U.S.-based buyers, and b) that it was a Hawaii TS property.

So, for Canadian BUYERS, the key seems to be to NOT physically sign the TS deed. The State of Hawaii's BOC is fine with this and it avoids a lot of unnecessary hassles, expense and stress.

I hope this helps for future reference.

I have talked to our Hawaii attorney who is also a co-author and co-editor of the Hawaii Conveyance manual and while the BOC clerk is partially right, on timeshare intervals he may not be 100% right as there are certain covenants and warranties that convey in many timeshare deeds and those require the buyer to sign the deeds.

My word of caution is before I listen to a recording clerk, I will take the advise of a real estate lawyer on the island any day.
 

northpole

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I am a Canadian living in Vancouver. I have purchased several Hawaii timeshares and we've always gone to Washington state to have our signatures notarized (There's a great notary in Point Roberts, Washington that we've used).

I'm not sure IF these signatures were required, but the closing company has always told us that Canadian notaries are not recognized...
 

DianeG

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Clarifications

Thanks Dave for pointing that out. I can now see how this can vary from resort to resort. Also if a mortgage were involved, or buying into a system/club, these would be another matter entirely too. :ponder:

In the case of Paniolo Greens specifically, neither the State of Hawaii, nor the resort itself, require the buyers' signature for the transfer of the title deed. I have verified this point with both. At least one of my new PG weeks has succesfully been through the entire closing and registration process without our signatures. There is no mortgage involved, as these were bargain purchases.

So, in this case, blindly accepting an admin clerk's application of a generic template is not at all in the best interest of Canadians buying into Paniolo Greens.

Our lastest EOY purchase is just now finally going through closing with VSO without our signatures.

As for Canadian notaries not being recognized - that's only partially true. If a Canadian notary's signature is itself officially authorized & "sealed", it is legally valid in the U.S. Canada is not signatory to the Hague agreement (for legalizing documents), so in fact, the "Apostille" seal does not apply to Canadians as such. But a similar process does exist; which means that, for example in Regina or Victoria, you can still get properly notarized documents for the U.S. without being limited to having to go to a Consulate or to a U.S. notary public.

The key here is that, essentially, a Canadian notary needs to have their own signature properly authenticated and legalized with an Apostille-equivalent seal. Which is why things got so screwy with one of the closing companies that we recently dealt with - and this is the route that has been used to get the deed registration process finally on its way.
 
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DianeG

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Thanks Northpole!

Good tip about the notary you use in Washington - that makes it an easy drive and much cheaper alternative if you live in/around Vancouver!
 

BevL

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And as a former B.C. notary public I can tell you for sure you need to either go to the consulate or across the border. I had to make that trek several times for various timeshare deals.

The requirements do vary from state to state. I know for sure California, we'd do a day trip to Bellingham.
 

kalima

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Are you sure?

And as a former B.C. notary public I can tell you for sure you need to either go to the consulate or across the border. I had to make that trek several times for various timeshare deals.

The requirements do vary from state to state. I know for sure California, we'd do a day trip to Bellingham.

I have been told that I can use a local Notary in BC & have their Seal authorized by the US Consulate in Vancouver.....I really do not want to go to the States just to do this. I have faxed the Consulate today and just awaiting their reply..hopefully they don't take too long.
 

DeniseM

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Please note that this thread is from 2012.
 

DeniseM

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thought I could generate some more comments or clarification....I am waiting to hear from the US Consulate but who knows how long that may take.:eek:

That's perfectly fine - my note was really for other people who might come along, and try to answer the original question, not noticing that it was asked in 2012.
 

BevL

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I have been told that I can use a local Notary in BC & have their Seal authorized by the US Consulate in Vancouver.....I really do not want to go to the States just to do this. I have faxed the Consulate today and just awaiting their reply..hopefully they don't take too long.

You can do it that way if you really REALLY don't want to go to the States. I live five minutes away and for me, it's much easier (and cheaper and faster) going into a Mailboxes Etc type place just across the line than treking into downtown Vancouver to the conulate. But popping into your local Canadian notary/lawyer, having your signature witnessed and sending it off won't work.

A note that is that, AFAIK, unless the process has changed, the document will have to be notarized by a lawyer or notary in BC. Then that person's signature has to be authenticated by either the law society or notary society. That takes a week and fees. Then it has to go to the Consulate for legalization, read more time and fees.
 
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kalima

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hmm

You can do it that way if you really REALLY don't want to go to the States. I live five minutes away and for me, it's much easier (and cheaper and faster) going into a Mailboxes Etc type place just across the line than treking into downtown Vancouver to the conulate. But popping into your local Canadian notary/lawyer, having your signature witnessed and sending it off won't work.

A note that is that, AFAIK, unless the process has changed, the document will have to be notarized by a lawyer or notary in BC. Then that person's signature has to be authenticated by either the law society or notary society. That takes a week and fees. Then it has to go to the Consulate for legalization, read more time and fees.

will have to wait and see what the Consulate have to say...another Cdn has told me that they did it the way that I said & mailed it to the Consulate & it all worked out fine....I really do not want to catch a ferry & go across the line & also agree that downtown Vancouver is a hassle also...;)
 

kalima

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Good!

I can see my local notary who will send the papers to the US Consulate in Vancouver for them to confirm the Notary's Seal. Then will have to just send to the closing company. This will take a while but there is no hurry as this is an EOY TS that won't be used until 2016. A few months or more won't make any difference to us. Will cost be about the same or less than me trying to get to the consulate or driving to the US. Would rather avoid the hassle and don't have time to do that either:) what it came down to is: what does Hawaii law require so it could vary from place to place.
 
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