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[2009] Who has the lowest maintenance fees??

richardm

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Annual fee comparisons...

You'll need to provide more info to have a real basis for comparison.. Villa type, season, usage, etc.. Also, you may want to specify the breakdown as far as taxes, reserves, replacements, club fees, etc so everyone posts in the same manner.

Great idea for a discussion, though.. There is a similar thread on another site that is always very interesting to read.
 

Craig

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Provincetown Studio

Sandcastle Condominiums, Provincetown, MA
Studio sleeps 4 (oceanfront)
Week 40 (Red per RCI)

$177 per year including taxes
 

Kola

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Sandcastle Condominiums, Provincetown, MA
Studio sleeps 4 (oceanfront)
Week 40 (Red per RCI)

$177 per year including taxes
Craig,

What is the figure for one bdr. ?
Since you own at Brewster could you post the fees there for one bdr incl. tax.

K
 

Craig

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I'm not sure what the MF is for 1 BR units at Sandcastle. Ironically, the oceanfront units have cheaper MFs than the units in the Dunes building due to different HOAs. And the time of year affects the amount. My same oceanfront studio for the previous week (39) is almost double what I pay for week 40.

Brewster Green does not have 1 BR units, only 2 and 3 BRs. Their MF has increased to over $600 for a 2BR and over $700 for a 3BR (including taxes and reserves). But they've done lots of refurbishing...the units, grounds, and amenities are great.
 

boyblue

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I'm pretty happy with the $400.00 we pay for a 3br floating red week at Sandyshores III which gets us 56,000 points in PDF.

A lot of South Carolina TS seem to have reasonable Fees.
 
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#1 Cowboys Fan

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... which gets us 56,000 points in PDF.
Does this statement apply to RCI points? (I know very little about points, but am trying to learn all the time.)

Please explain what this means---and what is "PDF"?
Are 56,000 points a significant amount---what might that be 'worth' (in terms of a week's stay, etc.)?

Thanks,
Pat
 

gorevs9

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Does this statement apply to RCI points? (I know very little about points, but am trying to learn all the time.)

Please explain what this means---and what is "PDF"?
Are 56,000 points a significant amount---what might that be 'worth' (in terms of a week's stay, etc.)?

Thanks,
Pat
Yes, this does apply to RCI Points. And "PDF" is "PFD" which means Points For Deposit. This is a program, where an owner of RCI Points resorts can deposit any 'weeks’ resorts units they own into their Points account (instead of the traditional exchange). Points received are based on the resort location, rating, size and season. 56,000 points will probably get you a week in a 1 BR (Gold Crown) or 2 BR (others) during prime season (Hawaii, DVC may be exceptions). For example, last year I booked a 1 BR at the Divi Village Golf and Beach Resort in Aruba (55,000/wk) and a 1 BR at the Divi Little Bay in St. Maarten (56,000/wk). If you are willing to travel in the off season, or stay less than 7 nights and avoid Fri/Sat nights, the points will go further.

The individual listings for Points resorts in the RCI directory has a link for the specific point values.

The only two caveats is that you must first own at a Points resort AND the "weeks' unit you own cannot be at a resort that has converted to RCI Points (even if you didn't convert).

Many owners take advantage of the 3-year lease to get into the points system to use PFD.
 

icydog

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Yes, this does apply to RCI Points. And "PDF" is "PFD" which means Points For Deposit. This is a program, where an owner of RCI Points resorts can deposit any 'weeks’ resorts units they own into their Points account (instead of the traditional exchange). Points received are based on the resort location, rating, size and season. 56,000 points will probably get you a week in a 1 BR (Gold Crown) or 2 BR (others) during prime season (Hawaii, DVC may be exceptions). For example, last year I booked a 1 BR at the Divi Village Golf and Beach Resort in Aruba (55,000/wk) and a 1 BR at the Divi Little Bay in St. Maarten (56,000/wk). If you are willing to travel in the off season, or stay less than 7 nights and avoid Fri/Sat nights, the points will go further.

The individual listings for Points resorts in the RCI directory has a link for the specific point values.

The only two caveats is that you must first own at a Points resort AND the "weeks' unit you own cannot be at a resort that has converted to RCI Points (even if you didn't convert).

Many owners take advantage of the 3-year lease to get into the points system to use PFD.
Many owners take advantage of the 3-year lease to get into the points system to use PFD. What do you mean by 3 year lease??
 

jdetar

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Many owners take advantage of the 3-year lease to get into the points system to use PFD. What do you mean by 3 year lease??
Club Trinidad does this. The main thing I don't like is the value. The price you pay point for dollar isn't very good. .009-.01 where you can get it at .005-.006, so about twice as much.
 

rickandcindy23

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The value is good because the cost is very minimal. If you want to get into points to use PFD, the value is actually excellent for the Club Trinidad leases.

I would do it, if I didn't already have RCI Points, and I have recommended it to many people here and within the Foxrun group.
 

rickandcindy23

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My post above is a bit off-topic, and I apologize for that.

I would like to add that low maintenance fees can be an indication that things are not being maintained properly and assessments are going to follow. I understand why fees are low in Africa, due to the exchange rate, but fees of $200 for a red week in any U.S. location is not a healthy thing.

We had fees of $336 for years on our 2 bedroom units at Twin Rivers. There are almost no amenities, just a pair of hot tubs, and those low fees paid the bills, basically. We have trash and snow removal costs, utilities, housekeeping, management fees, etc., and that cost covered all of those items, plus a tiny bit for reserves (if a television broke, then could replace it with another $300 television).

We needed to do interior and exterior repairs on our units, and that ultimately was the reason we had to assess, because the fees were too low for too many years. Now we need new carpet and tile in most units, and the owners are upset that their low-cost vacation is gone. Oh, well!
 

jdetar

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My post above is a bit off-topic, and I apologize for that.

I would like to add that low maintenance fees can be an indication that things are not being maintained properly and assessments are going to follow. I understand why fees are low in Africa, due to the exchange rate, but fees of $200 for a red week in any U.S. location is not a healthy thing.

We had fees of $336 for years on our 2 bedroom units at Twin Rivers. There are almost no amenities, just a pair of hot tubs, and those low fees paid the bills, basically. We have trash and snow removal costs, utilities, housekeeping, management fees, etc., and that cost covered all of those items, plus a tiny bit for reserves (if a television broke, then could replace it with another $300 television).

We needed to do interior and exterior repairs on our units, and that ultimately was the reason we had to assess, because the fees were too low for too many years. Now we need new carpet and tile in most units, and the owners are upset that their low-cost vacation is gone. Oh, well!
Although that may be logical, or popular belief.. it's not necessarily true. Example, if a resort is at about 100% ownership, and 98+% of those people actually pay their MF's on time, the resort's management costs are low, property costs, utilities, and taxes are low, and so on.. it can be done. Sure it's not easy finding that golden combination, but that's like telling wal-mart they simply cannot sell product X at their price because they're not making money, which also isn't the case.

I own a few businesses, and have been "wowing" my customers, competition, friends, family, etc because I have developed ways to keep costs consistently lower than my competition, but yet still manage to provide top notch service and support, for over a decade now. How? well that's my trade secret.. but the point is it can be done. And while some businesses may really screw up that effort, which is apparent by the assessment's, I've seen some stable balance sheets that show a long term history of being the elite that can pull it off. Most resorts surely cannot do that, but that doesn't mean the ones that do fall into that high risk category either.
 

duck_widow

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CA Low Maint Fees

Hi,

Can some folks who own TS's in CA with low maint fees post some info here? Or, maybe to phrase it better - what are some of the lowest maint fees for CA TS's. Figures for 2BD units are what I'm looking for.

Thanks so much!!
 

rickandcindy23

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Although that may be logical, or popular belief.. it's not necessarily true. Example, if a resort is at about 100% ownership, and 98+% of those people actually pay their MF's on time, the resort's management costs are low, property costs, utilities, and taxes are low, and so on.. it can be done. Sure it's not easy finding that golden combination, but that's like telling wal-mart they simply cannot sell product X at their price because they're not making money, which also isn't the case.

I own a few businesses, and have been "wowing" my customers, competition, friends, family, etc because I have developed ways to keep costs consistently lower than my competition, but yet still manage to provide top notch service and support, for over a decade now. How? well that's my trade secret.. but the point is it can be done. And while some businesses may really screw up that effort, which is apparent by the assessment's, I've seen some stable balance sheets that show a long term history of being the elite that can pull it off. Most resorts surely cannot do that, but that doesn't mean the ones that do fall into that high risk category either.
It costs $92 a week to clean each of our units at Twin Rivers. $92 covers our necessary staffing costs (like insurance, salary, benefits), cleaning supplies and replacement items like the coffee filters, toilet paper, tissue, shampoo samples, dishsoap, bars of soap, laundering of linens, etc. I don't see how $200 can cover all of the expenses, unless we started using illegals and had them wash all the sheets (we have a linen service). I would be opposed to underpaying anyone, even if they would take less. Electricity are an average of over $50 per week alone, and we have cable television and phones in all of the units. We have liability insurance, homeowners' insurance, and taxes of about $25 per owned week.

Try re-paving, re-roofing and repainting a complex with such low fees. It takes just too much money. I am on a board, and I see the bills.

Try replacing a roof with no reserves.
 

Patri

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It is done, and part of it may be due to the cost of living in different parts of the United States.
 

jdetar

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It is done, and part of it may be due to the cost of living in different parts of the United States.
That is a part of it. That was obvious just by my vacation to Hawaii earlier this month. Total sticker shock in Wal-Mart for the same type of items I'd buy back at home! :eek:
 

ambrosij

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MF Have Gotten out of Control at some resorts

While I understand the concept behind rising fees laid out by some that serve on boards, I fail to see why a properly managed resort should have maintenance fees any higher than the annual MF at a comparable condo facility. For example, MF at doorman condos in Manhattan are about $1.40 per sqft. So, the Manhattan club, for example, should have comparable MF of about $1400 monthly for their largest unit. Multiply this by 12 for a total of $16,800, add in a 15% premium because of the complexity shared ownership for a total of $19320. I will even go a step further and add in another 5% for furniture and appliance updates and now we are at $20,286. Divide that total number by 52 and you get about $392.00...which would be considered a very low maintenance fee.

Have you noticed that resorts with seemingly low MF are much more difficult to find...owners actually WANT to retain them. Right now I believe the MF for the 1BR/2BA unit is about $1900, the smaller unit with 1BA is about 1600 and the studio I believe is $1200. I understand there is some complicated ownership structures...biannual/triannual...ect. But, for arguments sake...lets say that the average user MF is about $1500 per year...meaning that on average a single unit is generating on average $78,000 per year. I believe there are 286 units at the Manhattan club. If the resort was sold out with owners who actually paid their fees every year they would generate $22.3 million in maintenance fees alone. I would even be okay with an annual 3.5% of maintenance fees due to inflation...I will take it a step further and say that I would be okay with double MF every five years in lieu of assessments. At a more reasonable MF of $400 on average per user you are looking at a total of about $6,006,000. Now, if the board and management can't make it work for $6,000,000 per year, when every other comparable property seems to make it work...well maybe its time for new management.

The greatest killer of the time share industry has been uncontrolled MF increases. It makes no sense to purchase a $25,000 property and then pay $1200 a year on top of that. It does make sense to purchase a $25,000 property and then pay a moderate $300-$500 MF. The owners of time share properties are raked over the coals, and rather than replace incompetent management we choose to build the burden on top of the owner. It is absolutely no surprise the industry is where it is now.
 

theo

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What costs ever go DOWN for ANYONE, ANYWHERE...?

I certainly don't like rising maintenance fees any more than anyone else. I am also well aware that at some point in the upward escalation of annual fees, the "value" of ongoing ownership is open to closer scrutiny.
For some of my ownerships, that point is clearly in sight on the horizon and seemingly getting closer.

That much being openly acknowledged, can any intelligent and reasonable person realistically expect that maintenance fees can magically just somehow remain the same, while the cost of virtually everything else around us consistently increases? :shrug: :confused: :shrug:

Utilities and fuel costs move only upward, for everyone, anywhere. Likewise the maintenance, repair and / or replacement of heating and cooling equipment and most appliances. The cost of "soft goods" increases --- for everyone, anywhere. Property taxes increase --- for most places of any real market value, anyhow. Insurance costs go in no other direction than upward. Any and every resort, regardless of HOA, management company, quality, location (...or astrological sign) is faced with these harsh facts as an everyday reality.

I surely don't have any magic beans or Staples "easy button" type answers, nor do I have any access to enchanted pixie dust. Nonetheless, I can't help observing that anyone who somehow believes that maintenance fees can somehow just be low or remain static in the face of ever increasing costs from which no resort is exempt, then I respectfully submit that any and every such person is living in Fantasy Land.

Fantasy Land may well be a happy and peaceful place. Unfortunately, it sure ain't the real world...:shrug:
 
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ambrosij

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Yes, I understand where you are coming from, but why should timeshare MF not be more in line with the MF of condos. As I posted, I could except a reasonable annual increase...but with reference to the resort I mentioned in my post, the MF jumped 150% in one year...I think that year was 2009.
 

RMitchell

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Yes, I understand where you are coming from, but why should timeshare MF not be more in line with the MF of condos. As I posted, I could except a reasonable annual increase...but with reference to the resort I mentioned in my post, the MF jumped 150% in one year...I think that year was 2009.
Some timeshare presentations, or maybe more than some, like to use the prepaid vacation mumbojumbo as a reason for buying. These same hotels/resorts put absolutely no money in an escrow to cover any future expenses and therefore depend on the "owners" for all the upkeep money. Maybe it would be a good thing to put half of all the money obtained in purchases to be put in an actual prepaid vacation type account to keep maintenance fees at the original purchase price. This would also increase resale value. I don't think it'll fly though because sales and the real owner of timeshare properties like to run off with as much cash as they can carry.
 

LannyPC

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I certainly don't like rising maintenance fees any more than anyone else. I am also well aware that at some point in the upward escalation of annual fees, the "value" of ongoing ownership is open to closer scrutiny.
For some of my ownerships, that point is clearly in sight on the horizon and seemingly getting closer.

That much being openly acknowledged, can any intelligent and reasonable person realistically expect that maintenance fees can magically just somehow remain the same, while the cost of virtually everything else around us consistently increases? :shrug: :confused: :shrug:

Utilities and fuel costs move only upward, for everyone, anywhere. Likewise the maintenance, repair and / or replacement of heating and cooling equipment and most appliances. The cost of "soft goods" increases --- for everyone, anywhere. Property taxes increase --- for most places of any real market value, anyhow. Insurance costs go in no other direction than upward. Any and every resort, regardless of HOA, management company, quality, location (...or astrological sign) is faced with these harsh facts as an everyday reality.
I'm sure everybody understands that costs will invariably go up. I think the issue that most TS owners have is that the MFs seem to be rising faster than the rate of inflation. So IOW, if last year someone shelled out 50 hours' wages to pay the MFs, this year that person will likely be paying 51-52 hours' wages. Next year, it would be up around 53 or 54, etc.

I'm certainly not laying the blame on the HOAs for this problem. I'm just saying that this is likely one reason why many owners are steamed over their MF bills.
 

ambrosij

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Your on to something

Some timeshare presentations, or maybe more than some, like to use the prepaid vacation mumbojumbo as a reason for buying. These same hotels/resorts put absolutely no money in an escrow to cover any future expenses and therefore depend on the "owners" for all the upkeep money. Maybe it would be a good thing to put half of all the money obtained in purchases to be put in an actual prepaid vacation type account to keep maintenance fees at the original purchase price. This would also increase resale value. I don't think it'll fly though because sales and the real owner of timeshare properties like to run off with as much cash as they can carry.
I think it is difficult to expect or even present the idea that in addition to the construction cost the developer absorb MF costs, especially with all the construction bankruptcies that have occurred as of late. However, if there are unoccupied units that are resort managed for rental purposes, or if the developer maintains promotion units for marketing then they should absolutely be paying the MF for those units. And, if it is upkeep we are talking about then I see no reason why the MF would be different than that of an owner. I do agree that making it much more difficult for MF to increase would raise the value and price of timeshares. I have parents coming to stay in Williamsburg in August, I was going to book a one bedroom with RCI points..which calculating exchange fee and points for a one bedroom comes out to $685, not bad...pretty cheap for a week stay...but hold on just one second. Going to the resorts website I am able to book a room for nearly $120 less...same room, same amenities...for LESS!!. Now my question is who paying the MF's on these rooms that are resort leased for the week? Are they absorbed by the actual owners? I don't know, but I am guessing yes. If you look at many of these balance sheets, the Timeshares are registered as non-profits (the developer is for-profit obviously)...but there is some very creative accounting going on to show a deficit each and every year...or barely breaking even. I also question if some of the owner/board members have the executive and business background to identify these types of creative accounting scenarios.

The bottom line is that the "bottom line" is not always the true BOTTOM LINE, and the board needs to be able to call out the corporate hooligans when they see them. In this era of corporate fraud and manipulation owners need to be more diligent about who is running their time share and how their proxy votes are used. You look at resorts like Winner's Circle in Solana, Tree Tops in Gaitlinburg, and a number of other independents and what you see is that they have managed to keep MF reasonable, build value for their owners, reasonably update their properties, and for the most part keep their foreclosure rates very low and occupancy rates fairly high.
 
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