Would you retro NOW?

[CPNY]

I'm finding this to be an interesting thread as I'm currently considering doing a retro for our SDO EOY true platinum (worth 148,100 EOY). At our last presentation in March they offered to take our SVR fixed/floating week 51 (developer purchase worth 81,000) +$11k and give us 81,000 Sheraton Flex options. Obviously this was going nowhere as I couldn't justify paying $400 more in MF for something that I already own and is superior to Sheraton Flex.

It did get me to thinking that the Westin Flex EOY purchase might be a good fit with our portfolio to pair with our WKORV-N EOY OF week as we could then add a day or two to our Hawaii vacation and possible take advantage of better flights etc.

Has anyone run across the pricing for Westin Flex EOY? Last quoted price for Westin Flex annual I saw was $0.37/option - but this was awhile ago and I imagine there is a small premium for EOY. I'm thinking if I could pick up a 30k contract for $11k that would give us more options as well as retro in our existing unit.

I'm wondering for the $10k minimum that is now being quoted here. Is that just the new cash portion that has to come in (i.e., the minimum is $20k but only $10k is cash - the other can be trade-in) or is it just a straight $10k purchase with no $20k min?

I’ve been thinking of picking up voluntary resale with a minimum 10K purchase to retro for a low maint fee enrollment of the resale week. To answer your question it’s 10K new cash to my knowledge. So if they “buy back” a current week you own and apply a price to the new purchase you still have to make 10K new money in addition to the equity they give you. They have been running the 10K “special” for a bit now. You can just buy a flex ownership for 10K without giving anything back and that would be sufficient to retro any resale.

 

[CPNY]

We only own resale Vistana weeks, both voluntary and mandatory. Despite the repeated threats made by the sales people in the past year, the minimum to retro a contract has come down to about $10,000. We have the option to do that and be 3 star elite or for about double retro more, give back some, you know the drill... and be 4 star elite.

One one hand IF the overlay never comes or IF it is disappointing for the voluntary resale owners and especially for the voluntary AND mandatory resale owners, maybe it is not a bad thing to do it now. I am thinking Marriott may realign the sales strategies once there is more clarity with the new programs. On the other hand my strong feeling is that there is going to be enrollment offered so I would just waste $$ and feel completely stupid after that.

I think I will do nothing but it itches me a little bit to be honest. What would you do?

This is the exact tactic they tried with me, give back, buy more and retro for elite. In the end I didn’t bite on elite status. Just wasn’t worth it for me. Especially since my resales are all mandatory, it made zero sense to retro a mandatory deed just for elite status. I’ve been thinking of buying resale voluntary with great trade power either in MVC or VSE and then enroll when/if given the chance at a good price. But there is another option of buying voluntary resale worth high star options then retro that just for star option usage. Only problem there is I really don’t want to buy another unit, I.e flex program. I don’t want more annual fees. Which brings me back to possibly buying a higher priced mandatory resale (which seem to be slim). So many choices.

 

[pchung6]

I’ve been thinking of picking up voluntary resale with a minimum 10K purchase to retro for a low maint fee enrollment of the resale week.

Why don’t you consider to buy WKV Resale instead of to retro? Any reason you want to have involuntary retro but not just mandatory for the same $10k?

 

[CPNY]

Why don’t you consider to buy WKV Resale instead of to retro? Any reason you want to have involuntary retro but not just mandatory for the same $10k?

That’s the thought. I think the maint fee on the SDO Is much lower but I could be completely wrong. I thought around 1100 compared to 1600.

 

[pchung6]

I think both SDO or SMV has MF around $1200-1300. Both can be your candidates to retro.

However, first of all, you have to pay $5000 to acquire the Platinum week. Second you have to spend $10000 for additional flex points that will have higher MF in that portion. That’s the total of $15k. You might be able to get some ancillary benefits from Vistana to offset the $10k purchase. Third, you won’t be able to recoup that $10k spend from Flex. Value goes to zero at the moment you sign. Fourth, it takes 25 years to save the $10k MF not account for interest rate. Fifth, buy WKV for $10k if you can find, 148k pts is what you see what you get. When you sell you get your money back.

 

[CPNY]

I think both SDO or SMV has MF around $1200-1300. Both can be your candidates to retro.

However, first of all, you have to pay $5000 to acquire the Platinum week. Second you have to spend $10000 for additional flex points that will have higher MF in that portion. That’s the total of $15k. You might be able to get some ancillary benefits from Vistana to offset the $10k purchase. Third, you won’t be able to recoup that $10k spend from Flex. Value goes to zero at the moment you sign. Fourth, it takes 25 years to save the $10k MF not account for interest rate. Fifth, buy WKV for $10k if you can find, 148k pts is what you see what you get. When you sell you get your money back.

Yeah i thank I was going around it backwards. Problem is it’s hard to find that WKV for 10K. I’m seeing some SDO plat 2 bedrooms at 2,000 however you’re completely right. It holds zero resale value when I add the flex, also huge loss. Then Ill just be stuck with a higher maint fee flex ownership which negates the retro purchase. Mandatory resale deeds seem to be the only option for star option usage. I can Stick with SDO for trades in II. Which brings me to the question of, does a 1 bedroom SDO Have high trade value or is it a sharp drop off from the trade value a 2 bedroom has? Is it hard to get harborside resort with a trade?

 

[DannyTS]

Yeah i thank I was going around it backwards. Problem is it’s hard to find that WKV for 10K. I’m seeing some SDO plat 2 bedrooms at 2,000 however you’re completely right. It holds zero resale value when I add the flex, also huge loss. Then Ill just be stuck with a higher maint fee flex ownership which negates the retro purchase. Mandatory resale deeds seem to be the only option for star option usage. I can Stick with SDO for trades in II. Which brings me to the question of, does a 1 bedroom SDO Have high trade value or is it a sharp drop off from the trade value a 2 bedroom has? Is it hard to get harborside resort with a trade?

to pay 10k for flex is not necessarily a huge loss because it is for 44k options EOY so even if the MF are a bit higher per point than other contracts, it is such a small amount that it does not make a difference. For example if I retro a WLR 2 bdr platinum EY I end up paying about $1600 MF for 170,000 SO which is not bad at all.
I agree with @pchung6 though, the moment you sign, your resale value drops by 10k, not a great deal. IMO the only scenario where this would make some sense is if MVC comes with an overlay that ONLY applies to Vistana elite owners. (at 170k SO from the developer you would be the lowest elite)

 

[CPNY]

to pay 10k for flex is not necessarily a huge loss because it is for 44k options EOY so even if the MF are a bit higher per point than other contracts, it is a such a small amount that it does not make a difference. For example if I retro a WLR 2 bdr platinum EY I end up paying about $1600 MF for 170,000 SO which is not bad at all.
I agree with @pchung6 though, the moment you sign, your resale value drops by 10k, not a great deal. IMO the only scenario where this would make some sense is if MVC comes with an overlay that ONLY applies to Vistana elite owners. (at 170k SO from the developer you would be the lowest elite)

1600 for 170,000 SO retro for a small flex isn’t a bad trade off at all.

 

[Ken555]

There are so many options... WKV makes the most sense because if you factor your resale value then it’s the least expensive on an annual basis of the easy buys. However, you are correct that SDO would be less on an annual basis, but you would need to retro and lose the retro fee. When I get to my computer I can post my SDO annual MFs if you’re interested, but my guess is that it would be only a ~$300 annual savings compared to WKV, so you’re looking at a long time to make that ROI compared to just buying WKV, assuming all else is equal.

There are many ways to look at this as well. Some who compare SVV and WKV, for instance, don’t factor in the resale value of WKV so SVV looks a lot better in those cases. When you do consider the resale value of WKV then it becomes the best option. Notable exceptions would be retro situations but of course you’re taking on a different risk there...and hoping for very little change in the system over the course of the ownership (or only positive changes).


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[CPNY]

There are so many options... WKV makes the most sense because if you factor your resale value then it’s the least expensive on an annual basis of the easy buys. However, you are correct that SDO would be less on an annual basis, but you would need to retro and lose the retro fee. When I get to my computer I can post my SDO annual MFs if you’re interested, but my guess is that it would be only a ~$300 annual savings compared to WKV, so you’re looking at a long time to make that ROI compared to just buying WKV, assuming all else is equal.

There are many ways to look at this as well. Some who compare SVV and WKV, for instance, don’t factor in the resale value of WKV so SVV looks a lot better in those cases. When you do consider the resale value of WKV then it becomes the best option. Notable exceptions would be retro situations but of course you’re taking on a different risk there...and hoping for very little change in the system over the course of the ownership (or only positive changes).


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I’ve paid attention to your posts and wished I paid closer attention to them before going SVV route. If you have the SDO maint fees that would help! I’ve looked for 2 bedroom WKV lately and haven’t found many. Last I saw them they were going for 14K-ish. I think that makes most sense to just have that and may keep one of the SVV units.

 

[jabberwocky]

I’ve paid attention to your posts and wished I paid closer attention to them before going SVV route. If you have the SDO maint fees that would help! I’ve looked for 2 bedroom WKV lately and haven’t found many. Last I saw them they were going for 14K-ish. I think that makes most sense to just have that and may keep one of the SVV units.

According to the 2019 MF Thread an annual SDO plat would be $1148/year. Our SDO EOY is $594 (this is not in VSN at present). I believe WKV are 1565 according to the MF thread. That is a difference of $417/year.

 

[dioxide45]

Thanks. So DC=MVC?

They may be different legal entities, but at least for my purposes, they are interchangeable.

MVC does not equal DC. DC is the points program that Marriott Vacation Club created in 2010, it is a subset of the overall program. MVC is Marriott Vacation Club which is made up of weeks based and point base ownership. MVC is the overall program where DC is just the points piece. If you see MVC most people are probably actually referring to the company, where when they say DC they are talking about the points.

 

[jabberwocky]

I’ve been thinking of picking up voluntary resale with a minimum 10K purchase to retro for a low maint fee enrollment of the resale week. To answer your question it’s 10K new cash to my knowledge. So if they “buy back” a current week you own and apply a price to the new purchase you still have to make 10K new money in addition to the equity they give you. They have been running the 10K “special” for a bit now. You can just buy a flex ownership for 10K without giving anything back and that would be sufficient to retro any resale.

Thanks - is the special only available through the main sales office or is it also available on-site? I'll try making a call and see what I can find out.

 

[Ken555]

I’ve paid attention to your posts and wished I paid closer attention to them before going SVV route. If you have the SDO maint fees that would help! I’ve looked for 2 bedroom WKV lately and haven’t found many. Last I saw them they were going for 14K-ish. I think that makes most sense to just have that and may keep one of the SVV units.

According to the 2019 MF Thread an annual SDO plat would be $1148/year. Our SDO EOY is $594 (this is not in VSN at present). I believe WKV are 1565 according to the MF thread. That is a difference of $417/year.

Those MFs are correct.

SDO EOY: $593.84
SDO EY: $1147.68
WKV EY: $1710.31 - $145 [first week] VSN fee = $1565.31

Comparing the annual's... $1565.31 - $1147.68 = $417.63

Assuming the retro fee for SDO is $10,000, then that investment of $10k / $417 = ~24 years. In the long run, you'll pay more by having WKV vs SDO so only retro the week if you think the program will stay. This also assumes you already have a Plat SDO week and doesn't account for that cost. And, it actually will cost you more since you need to purchase another week in order to do the retro, as you mentioned earlier.

FWIW, between 2006 and 2019 WKV MFs have increased an average of 4.7% per year (tho in the last five years it's just 2.89%; this year was only 1.31%). SDO from 2012-2019 was just 2.15% (and no change from 2018 to 2019).

If I was in the market for more weeks, I'd hold off right now since I do. not. trust. Marriott. not. to. screw. up. our. program. Rent for a year if you need more time soon and just buy next year when we will hopefully know more.

When buying WKV Plat's, don't be hasty and you'll find a good deal. They are likely readily available for ~14-16k right now, but I wouldn't be surprised to see some outliers in November/December at lower prices. If Marriott doesn't kill VSN then I don't see the value of WKV lessening - in fact, it may actually increase since there won't be the uncertainty which exists today. For perspective, I remember when WKORV was $35k on the resale market and now it's under $10k every day. As long as they don't kill the program and keep the MFs at a reasonable rate, I believe the value will remain.

For historical perspective, when I bought WKV in 2005 the MFs were ~$950, so it's increased ~61% in 15 years. WKV's MF is only reasonable when compared to other Westin (and certain Sheraton) resorts, Marriott's, Hyatt's, etc.

 

[CPNY]

Those MFs are correct.

SDO EOY: $593.84
SDO EY: $1147.68
WKV EY: $1710.31 - $145 [first week] VSN fee = $1565.31

Comparing the annual's... $1565.31 - $1147.68 = $417.63

Assuming the retro fee for SDO is $10,000, then that investment of $10k / $417 = ~24 years. In the long run, you'll pay more by having WKV vs SDO so only retro the week if you think the program will stay. This also assumes you already have a Plat SDO week and doesn't account for that cost. And, it actually will cost you more since you need to purchase another week in order to do the retro, as you mentioned earlier.

FWIW, between 2006 and 2019 WKV MFs have increased an average of 4.7% per year (tho in the last five years it's just 2.89%; this year was only 1.31%). SDO from 2012-2019 was just 2.15% (and no change from 2018 to 2019).

If I was in the market for more weeks, I'd hold off right now since I do. not. trust. Marriott. not. to. screw. up. our. program. Rent for a year if you need more time soon and just buy next year when we will hopefully know more.

When buying WKV Plat's, don't be hasty and you'll find a good deal. They are likely readily available for ~14-16k right now, but I wouldn't be surprised to see some outliers in November/December at lower prices. If Marriott doesn't kill VSN then I don't see the value of WKV lessening - in fact, it may actually increase since there won't be the uncertainty which exists today. For perspective, I remember when WKORV was $35k on the resale market and now it's under $10k every day. As long as they don't kill the program and keep the MFs at a reasonable rate, I believe the value will remain.

For historical perspective, when I bought WKV in 2005 the MFs were ~$950, so it's increased ~61% in 15 years. WKV's MF is only reasonable when compared to other Westin (and certain Sheraton) resorts, Marriott's, Hyatt's, etc.

Great points, I’ll likely hold off until at least November/Dec and take a look again. No I don’t currently own SDO but I hear it has exceptional trade value in II so I could always take advantage of that benefit in a wait and see situation. I just began searching resale for a plat 2 bedroom. I’ve seen a few listings so far and not asking too much. My only issue with the flex at 10k is actually having to buy another VOI. I’d literally rather pay the 10K and not have anything from them. But there is really no sense in that because I’ll never recoup that money. At least with a WKV i can most likely break even or take a small loss if i need an exit strategy. Am i correct in that assessment?

Your ” I. Do. Not. Trust. Marriott. Not. To. Screw. Up. Our. Program.” Had me cracking up.

 

[CPNY]

Thanks - is the special only available through the main sales office or is it also available on-site? I'll try making a call and see what I can find out.

Hmm good question. I spoke to them over the phone. Not sure about on-site I’m sure it is

 

[bizaro86]

Those MFs are correct.

SDO EOY: $593.84
SDO EY: $1147.68
WKV EY: $1710.31 - $145 [first week] VSN fee = $1565.31

Comparing the annual's... $1565.31 - $1147.68 = $417.63

Assuming the retro fee for SDO is $10,000, then that investment of $10k / $417 = ~24 years. In the long run, you'll pay more by having WKV vs SDO so only retro the week if you think the program will stay. This also assumes you already have a Plat SDO week and doesn't account for that cost. And, it actually will cost you more since you need to purchase another week in order to do the retro, as you mentioned earlier.

FWIW, between 2006 and 2019 WKV MFs have increased an average of 4.7% per year (tho in the last five years it's just 2.89%; this year was only 1.31%). SDO from 2012-2019 was just 2.15% (and no change from 2018 to 2019).

If I was in the market for more weeks, I'd hold off right now since I do. not. trust. Marriott. not. to. screw. up. our. program. Rent for a year if you need more time soon and just buy next year when we will hopefully know more.

When buying WKV Plat's, don't be hasty and you'll find a good deal. They are likely readily available for ~14-16k right now, but I wouldn't be surprised to see some outliers in November/December at lower prices. If Marriott doesn't kill VSN then I don't see the value of WKV lessening - in fact, it may actually increase since there won't be the uncertainty which exists today. For perspective, I remember when WKORV was $35k on the resale market and now it's under $10k every day. As long as they don't kill the program and keep the MFs at a reasonable rate, I believe the value will remain.

For historical perspective, when I bought WKV in 2005 the MFs were ~$950, so it's increased ~61% in 15 years. WKV's MF is only reasonable when compared to other Westin (and certain Sheraton) resorts, Marriott's, Hyatt's, etc.

I think it might make sense assuming you get something of tangible value for your $10k. Are they only doing that threshold for Sheraton Flex sales? Pretty much everything else they sell (westin flex, Nanea, aventuras) has better usage value imo (and probably at least slightly better resale).

 

[CPNY]

I think it might make sense assuming you get something of tangible value for your $10k. Are they only doing that threshold for Sheraton Flex sales? Pretty much everything else they sell (westin flex, Nanea, aventuras) has better usage value imo (and probably at least slightly better resale).

10K new money, didn’t matter which flex plan i was told last month. If I had a choice I’d go Westin flex just for riverfront ski week.

 

[CPNY]

According to the 2019 MF Thread an annual SDO plat would be $1148/year. Our SDO EOY is $594 (this is not in VSN at present). I believe WKV are 1565 according to the MF thread. That is a difference of $417/year.

How do you like having an EOY unit? Can you split the unit and deposit In interval? I have other mandatory units for star option usage. I’m wondering how well 1 bedroom units would trade in interval with say MVC ARUBA OC

 

[CPNY]

Those MFs are correct.

SDO EOY: $593.84
SDO EY: $1147.68
WKV EY: $1710.31 - $145 [first week] VSN fee = $1565.31

Comparing the annual's... $1565.31 - $1147.68 = $417.63

Assuming the retro fee for SDO is $10,000, then that investment of $10k / $417 = ~24 years. In the long run, you'll pay more by having WKV vs SDO so only retro the week if you think the program will stay. This also assumes you already have a Plat SDO week and doesn't account for that cost. And, it actually will cost you more since you need to purchase another week in order to do the retro, as you mentioned earlier.

FWIW, between 2006 and 2019 WKV MFs have increased an average of 4.7% per year (tho in the last five years it's just 2.89%; this year was only 1.31%). SDO from 2012-2019 was just 2.15% (and no change from 2018 to 2019).

If I was in the market for more weeks, I'd hold off right now since I do. not. trust. Marriott. not. to. screw. up. our. program. Rent for a year if you need more time soon and just buy next year when we will hopefully know more.

When buying WKV Plat's, don't be hasty and you'll find a good deal. They are likely readily available for ~14-16k right now, but I wouldn't be surprised to see some outliers in November/December at lower prices. If Marriott doesn't kill VSN then I don't see the value of WKV lessening - in fact, it may actually increase since there won't be the uncertainty which exists today. For perspective, I remember when WKORV was $35k on the resale market and now it's under $10k every day. As long as they don't kill the program and keep the MFs at a reasonable rate, I believe the value will remain.

For historical perspective, when I bought WKV in 2005 the MFs were ~$950, so it's increased ~61% in 15 years. WKV's MF is only reasonable when compared to other Westin (and certain Sheraton) resorts, Marriott's, Hyatt's, etc.

Being that I have mandatory units already, would getting an EOY 2 bedroom plat SDO cheap as chips be worth it? I’d be going the trade route for a few years before deciding if I should retro the unit. Even if VSN was killed I would assume they would allow and enrollment with a fee and I’m sure SDO would have a higher DC value compared to say SVV.

Also, is there a difference when listings say weeks 1-52 and others say true platinum and list the 1-21,50-52 weeks?

 

[controller1]

Your ” I. Do. Not. Trust. Marriott. Not. To. Screw. Up. Our. Program.” Had me cracking up.

Not me. I was reading it and nodding and saying to myself that I agreed with @Ken555 .

 

[CPNY]

Not me. I was reading it and nodding and saying to myself that I agreed with @Ken555 .

I agree with him as well which is why I also was nodding along and reading it. Lol. The emphasis had me laughing.

 

[DannyTS]

while I agree with the WKV vs retro SDO or WLR calculation, I have to make 2 additional comments.

1) In all my long term projections, in 10-15 years the resale value of ALL my timeshares (even those I paid thousands of dollars resale for) is ZERO . The prices have continued to come down in the last 10 years and I do not see why that trend would not continue. If these are the current resale prices after 9 years of economic growth, one can imagine the prices in so so times or worse.

2) As I mentioned before, we have decided not to retro. At the same time, having a "legit" part of the portfolio brings some stability in case:
a) the anticipated overlay will diminish significantly the inventory in SVN and/or in II and the mandatory
b) the Vistana owners will only be allowed to participate in an overlay if they are either elite owners or if they have bought from the developer.

I understand that a) and b) are hypothetical, but so the presumption that WKV will have a retail value in 10-15 years anywhere close to where it is today. If that comparison (WKV vs retro SDO or WLR) may be true for the next 2-3 years, I cannot put too much weight on it in the long run.

 

[jabberwocky]

How do you like having an EOY unit? Can you split the unit and deposit In interval? I have other mandatory units for star option usage. I’m wondering how well 1 bedroom units would trade in interval with say MVC ARUBA OC

It has worked well for us. We bought our EOY true-plat for $800 primarily to use around Christmas as my brother-in-law's place was getting a bit crowded for everyone to stay at (even years are spent with my wife's side of the family, odd years with mine so hence the EOY was perfect).

I have not traded it in II since we've always used as home resort - this would be our only non-VSN unit in II and I can't justify paying such a high separate annual fee for an EOY unit. II did give us a free two year trial with the unit. You can lock it off just like an annual unit. I was able to see some of the Hawaii properties with it (I didn't look for Aruba properties); however, they were all 1BR and with six of us we need a 2BR minimum - but it was good to know that there was the exchange possibility. The two year trial has just elapsed with II and I won't be renewing - now if this unit was brought in with a retro purchase then it would get added to the developer II account we have for free (another consideration for me in this calculation).

 

[jabberwocky]

Being that I have mandatory units already, would getting an EOY 2 bedroom plat SDO cheap as chips be worth it? I’d be going the trade route for a few years before deciding if I should retro the unit. Even if VSN was killed I would assume they would allow and enrollment with a fee and I’m sure SDO would have a higher DC value compared to say SVV.

Also, is there a difference when listings say weeks 1-52 and others say true platinum and list the 1-21,50-52 weeks?

I can't speculate on what will happen with MVC, but I'm a firm believer that you should buy where you would want to go. In the end if the program gets demolished you will at least have home resort usage. I think they will offer something to bring SVN owners into the MVC sphere as it only makes good business sense.

There is a difference in the true-plat and the 1-52 weeks. Originally I believe the resort was being sold as 1-52 usage. When Starwood took it over they started selling it as seasons with plat being weeks 1-21, 50-52. From what I have heard there is not much difference in what can be seen in II for trades (some reports on TUG of plats being a bit better). There will be a huge difference if you are wanting to book a spring training week as there is much less competition for those weeks within the plat pool as opposed to the full year pool.

One caution if you are looking at listings advertised as plat - be sure to verify the unit number as the platinum designation depends on both the week on the deed and the unit number (there is a thread somewhere here on TUG that lists the unit numbers - I'm just too lazy right now to find it ).