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Why I am done with HGVC from an Elite Premier Member

Discussion in 'Hilton Grand Vacations Club / HGVC' started by zerocylinders, Nov 28, 2019.

  1. zerocylinders

    zerocylinders TUG Member

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    We have over 40,000 annual points in HGVC, including Barbados and Sunrise Lodge that were developer purchases (rest resale). We recently decided to make a Marriott Vacation Club purchase because we anticipate a regular trip to St. Thomas where HGVC has no offerings. We ended up with a 29,000 point annual package with MVC. We have since made the decision to slowly unwind most of our HGVC ownership because of how superior MVC is.

    I thought it might be helpful to share our experiences and thinking, particularly the comparison between the two systems (I know folks also love Disney, but the limited offerings there make that choice an apples to oranges comparison). This is a long post, and represents years of experience over the past 9 years with HGVC. It is long because I am primarily writing this: (1) for someone considering buying into HGVC now, who might be interested in comparing HGVC to MVC; and (2) if anyone at HGVC cares to save their company and ends up reading this, for constructive criticism of a system that I used to really enjoy but now want to leave.

    Please don’t consider this a troll poss. As far as the properties go, we absolutely LOVE HGVC. I have never had a complaint about HGVC’s properties. We still love Eagles Nest and our Bay Club Kona Villa and will probably keep those properties just because we love staying there. We have never had a bad experience and have stayed at most of the US HGVC properties. That same positive comment applies to staff, room size, amenities, cleanliness, furnishings, etc. The foregoing is the reason we have stayed within the HGVC system so long, despite the warning signs discussed below.

    Also on the positive side, HGVCs maintenance fees are generally (if you choose properties, unit sizes, and seasons with maintenance fees in mind) lower per week than a comparable MVC property. That is why we avoided MVC in the past...

    With all of that, you would think that we would just want to stay with HGVC where we have spent so much time and money. However, our recent MVC experience really brought home how many problems HGVC has and explains why HGVC is having problems in the investment market (see the other post re poor HGVC financial performance and possible takeover rumors).

    1) Balkanization of HGVC. One of the biggest problems in HGVC is that every property presents a fundamentally different ownership - a point is NOT just a point. For example, owners at the “Hilton Club” in NY and DC have almost exclusive access to their own properties while they also get full access to my properties. This creates a new tier where you must buy into those properties in order to get full access. As discussed in my other post, Barbados has so few units that it hardly an option and the maintenance fees exceed market rental rates. Many properties have “event weeks” that are completely unavailable to ordinary Elite Premier owners (Sunset Lodge for example has the only week we want as an event week but that was not disclosed to us). Why such disparity? The answer, I think, lies partly in HGVC’s go to market strategy that it refers to as “capital lite” - e.g., they actually brag about not spending capital on new development. What this actually means in practice is that HGVC is just a brand and management company that is used on a third party development project. Whatever the reason, though, it is frustrating. Buying from HGVC now requires a careful analysis of which property’s developer is offering the best deal, reading through complex disclosure statements to find the gotchas that vary from project to project, and having faith that there will not in the future be a better deal from a different developer that you will be forced into to maintain real status (e.g., the Hilton Club situation). MVC has some of that in its “legacy” weeks system, but its newer DC points system is straightforward and egalitarian. The only way to get a leg up on other owners in the DC point system is to buy more points (giving a 13 month reservation advantage at 7000 points), but even that vanishes if you are willing to use extra points to get the 13 month window (which is an allowed move in the system). “Event weeks” in MVC similarly just require more points, they are not allocated to any particular owner (except for legacy weeks that are no longer sold). The “city” clubs like NY and Boston within MVC similarly require more points, but are open to all on an equal basis.

    2) Corporate vs Local HGVC. A related issue is the constant battle between obviously commissioned sales agents representing a particular development (e.g., the local sales team at a property like Sunrise Lodge) versus the Orlando corporate team. They literally fight each other for your business, each claiming to have the best deal. There are all kinds of tricks documented in this forum for maximizing that fight to get the real best deal. Because of the balkanization issue, getting the best deal requires that you know quite a lot about the HGVC system (for example, knowing about he South Florida Hilton resales, NY Club advantages, using resale trade-ups, local event weeks, etc.) in addition to the basic $/point economics. This is ultimately an exhausting way to buy a timeshare though. In contract, dealing with MVC was a dream. There was no competition, no infighting, they all talk to each other work together as a team (even between local and corporate teams).

    3) Lying HGVC Sales Team. We have had three situations where the HGVC sales person has lied to us, or promised things that never happened after closing. The latest example (which may have been our final straw when combined with the great experience we had buying from MVC) is instructive. As part of a complex deal we traded a 3 bedroom premier unit at Sunrise for the new Barbados property (plus cash from us). One of the drivers to this deal for us was that our bastard child - a Grand Pacific Palisades 3 bedroom that we bought not realizing that it could not be registered with HGVC - would be brought into HGVC ownership. This was not just a passing promise, we had it in writing and reconfirmed several times. Of course, it never happened and the Grand Pacific local sales team (see points 1 & 2 above also) say no one ever talked to them and they refused to move our GPP unit into HGVC ownership. Ultimately, though, no one at HGVC cares enough to fix the issue (or they can’t because of the balkanization issue). In comparison, we dealt with at least 4 different MVC reps including local and corporate.. surprisingly they all worked together as a team, there was no fight for commission visible to us, and they all worked hard to get our deal closed AND to fulfill promises made AFTER closing.

    4) Limits on (Legal) Rentals Kill Big Ownership Economics. According to HGVC rules, you may only rent your home week (you are not legally permitted to rent a Club point reservation that is not a home week). You also cannot “rent” HGVC points, even to another HGVC owner. Other options for using excess points are extremely unattractive financially. This all means that I have to plan carefully a year in advance for points I need, then reserve home weeks at the properties I will rent... then post on VRBO (which has been increasingly taking more and more of the rental fees), find a renter for my home week, and deal with each week rental. In a few cases (Anderson Club, Sunset Lodge, Eagle’s Nest) we have consistently seen rentals easily made above maintenance fees. But, it is a huge hassle and other properties (Kona, Orlando, Vegas, Barbados) are difficult to impossible to rent above maintenance fees. And without any option to rent points, unused points end up as Hilton HHonors points that have very limited use (HHonors has become one of the least valuable points systems over the past few years, and even at 25:1 transfer ratio it is better to spend cash than points). In comparison, I was able to “rent” over 24,000 MVC 2020 points that we can’t use for about $15K. It took me 3 days from posting to completing the transfer with MVC and paid my maintenance fees for 2020 plus a good return on invested capital.

    5) Geographic concentration of inventory. HGVC is heavily concentrated in Orlando, Vegas, the Big Island of Hawaii, and Honolulu. A few other choices with limited inventory (Sunset Lodge, Barbados) and the Hilton Club properties round out the offerings. No Caribbean offerings of any import (as discussed above and in my other post, Barbados is a bad joke). While MVC also has a massive amount of inventory in Orlando, it also has a much much wider spread of offerings across the for example: Hawaii (including Maui and Kauai), multiple Florida locations like Ft Lauderdale not covered by HGVC, Arizona, Boston, St. Thomas, St Kitts, etc. etc.

    6) Instability due to IPO. The spin out of HGVC from the larger Hilton organization had exactly the effect I feared - disastrous. They are now fending off offers from private equity that would clearly milk existing owners until the whole thing collapses. Financial performance has not been on par with Wall Street expectations. It all points to a very uncertain future, without the backing of Hilton.
     
  2. DazedandConfused

    DazedandConfused Guest

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    wow...interesting read.

    40,000 HGVC points and 29,000 MVC points are HUGE amounts of points.

    I own about half that HGVC and own a ton of DVC points. I also sold my Marriott week about 10 years ago before the points conversion.

    I understand all your concerns and think some of the issues may be related to owing too many points. In other words, you may enjoy it more if you owned less. But the Achilles Heel of HGVC is the limited number of geographic locations.

    To put things in perspective, I also agree that the Balkanization of HGVC is a BAD thing, and I take pride in sneaking into the owners clubs in NYC, but they are very overrated. I just booked HGVC in NYC and it amazed me how much this can save me vs paying cash for a hotel.

    I also like the Las Vegas properties and Hawaii, but don't go to Hawaii too often. I only send family to Orlando as I prefer using my DVC points for Disney.

    I convert excess HGVC points to HHonors and I understand that that may not be great value, but is is great for European Hilton hotels on points.

    I was NOT aware of the HGVC rental limitations as I have never rented HGVC points, but that too is not a good thing.

    I also try my best to stay away from the sales reps as they are all like dogs looking for a tasty bone to chew on.
     
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  3. CalGalTraveler

    CalGalTraveler TUG Member

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    Interesting perspective. Thanks for sharing. I can see your position given the sales teams led you astray.

    Although HGVC has it's downsides as you stated, the only big one in my mind is #6. However I believe MVC suffers the same issue.

    I will be interested in your opinion in a few years when the MVC honeymoon wears off.

    1) Balkanization. We own in NYC and would never use expensive NYC points outside of bHC, so that concern is moot to us. I have heard other NYC owners state the same conclusion. I don't think HGVC owners should be worried. We've never had problems trading into other HGVC using our Vegas club points as long as we do it early. However, we have not stayed at the Crane so understand your frustration.

    2) & 3) We buy resale so ignore what HGVC sales says. Non-issue to us.

    4) Renting points. I like MVCs and Disney's approach. However I would be more likely to enroll our Vistana WKORVN deeded resale unit and rent out those associated points or rent from other MVC points owners rather than buying more points to rent out. As @DazedandConfused stated, this may be an outcome of owning too many points. Did you consider buying resale deeded MVC or Vistana weeks and then enrolling them later?

    5) Locations: We are increasingly renting, using cash getaways, or trading timeshares in II or RCI when we cannot get HGVC (or our Vistana) rather than buying into another system. Therefore limited location not a problem. Cash rentals, trading, and hotel points give us the greatest flexibility at the lowest risk.

    6) If Diamond or Apollo are involved we will re-evaluate our HGVC position and may transition to MVC/Vistana or rent.

    Despite the drawbacks, the HGVC system is much less expensive and has less likelihood of devaluation compared to DC trust points which are not tied to specific deeds. So I don't mind putting up with these issues as I see them as minor but am winning via lower cost.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019
  4. Ralph Sir Edward

    Ralph Sir Edward TUG Member

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    I will note that the MFs on 29,000 Marriott points run around $16,820 a year (@ $.58 a point). That would get 7 weeks in low season in Hawaii. In the highest season weeks Just under 5 weeks.

    Seven weeks at Bay Club would run around $12,000, for any week other than 51, and 52; which is about 25% less.

    (All are based on 2 BDR units)

    My viewpoint is that Marriott is a superior system at a superior price. A much superior price. However, if you've got the money . . .
     
  5. DazedandConfused

    DazedandConfused Guest

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    Marriott at $17,000 for 5 weeks = $3,400 per week = $486 per night and that does not include the price to buy (another $50,000 or so).

    How is that better value than simply renting a home or condo on VRBO

    $12,000 for 7 HGVC weeks = $1,714 per week = $245 per night which is good value for Hawaii, but I would NOT want to be on the Big Island for 7 weeks.
     
    Fredflintstone likes this.
  6. zerocylinders

    zerocylinders TUG Member

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    I was actually making the opposite point. It is virtually impossible for me to book NY or DC despite my elite premier status. Of course NY or DC Hilton Club members can book anywhere. That asymmetry is my point. HGVC did that only because they needed to sell more HC units at a higher price; effectively using properties that I and others bought before as incentives to HC buyers who now have preferential terms over everyone else. Of course I could "buy in" to Hilton Club, but I find it unfair and contrary to the whole point of belonging to a system like HGVC that I would have to "buy in" to Hilton Club to take advantage of these new properties, while the owners at HC can still book my properties without restriction. You can already see that this direction is not great for anyone .. there are different preferences even among the different HC ownerships. Consider how you might analyze the situation if there is new Hilton Club offering that excludes you altogether (but the new owners at that future HC property would still be able to use your property). Why wouldn't HC do that, having already crossed the rubicon of exclusionary ownership offerings?

    The fact that virtually everyone on this board has your view (only buy resale) should indicate that there is an issue and should still concern you. Why is it that HGVC can't make an effective direct offering (as MVC and DVC are able to do) that is compelling? Buying resale is not a panacea, it is a band-aid and a temporary one at that (HGVC can't survive if it can't offer a competitive direct offering; and all of us HGVC owners will suffer if HGVC ceases to be competitive in direct offerings). That is putting aside the issue that there are some important benefits to elite levels (at least for me).

    Two different issues here.

    With respect to HGVC, the points we bought are clearly more than we need but they are all at properties we regularly visit. In past years, I have been successful in renting out the weeks we are not using. I never broke even (versus maintenance fees) but I have always done better versus the cost of renting every year. My complaint is that this is a huge hassle and the MVC and DVC systems are much superior, with a lot less friction when dealing with extra points/weeks. The problem will be more significant now that we are moving to MVC though.

    With respect to MVC, you should look at my posts over at the MVC forum. In a nutshell though, I am actually getting a return from renting the points I am not using. For example, disregarding the incentive points, in 2020 our total MFs for 29K points was only about 10K. We rented out 24K points for nearly 15K, and we used the remaining 5K points for 2020 reservations. Net result? We were paid about $5,000 net of maintenance fees, and we still had 5,000 points to use. And, it took me 3 days to rent my MVC points and collect the cash. Try that with HGVC (and, if you know of some secret please share!). To get these great economics, though, you do have to make a big investment in MVC, which is how we ended up with so many points.

    [/QUOTE]

    I could not disagree with this more. I know there are others here (on the HGVC forum at least) who share your opinion. I think that in general folks who have great schedule flexibility, travelling within the continental U.S. and Hawaii only, are traveling as a single or couple (not with a family), who have time to deal with a lot of hassle, and who don't mind off run down properties might enjoy using RCI and II. Not us. I have found RCI and II to be less than worthless. We have had several trades on both systems, and every single trade on either system has been a disaster. The properties on RCI and II that are not affiliated with HGVC/MVC/DVC are just not that great, or maybe the great properties are just not available. We fled our first RCI trade in the middle of the first night it was so bad (that was an RCI Gold Resort); and we got bed bugs on our next trade through II. To make matters worse, it is extremely rare that I can find ANYTHING that I would want on either RCI or II through normal searches.. I know that there are some good properties out there that are just never available, and I have tried standing searches to get those properties but the searches cost money and I have had those fail after 6 months without finding the properties I wanted. After years of trying, I have not had one successful (in my view) trade with either II or RCI. To each his own I guess, but I would rather just give up on timesharing altogether versus doing another II or RCI trade.
     
  7. Fredflintstone

    Fredflintstone TUG Member

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    Totally agree. One of my favourite rental sites is Maui Rental Group.

    I can get Ocean front 2 bedroom for average 200 a night. Weekly rates are discounted.

    I have booked a budget Garden view 1 bedroom for 135 a night with a great location.

    How does that compare to 435 a night MF? Yes, I know it’s not a brand name but really...I go to Hawaii to be outdoors not in and can still cook and enjoy. All the units I have been in were spotless and furnishing were clean and presentable.

    I do use Airbnb and others too with similar results.

    Here’s just one example:


    https://mauirental.com/product/kauhale-makai-535-2-bedroom-renovated-5th-992

    And I can get it for less if I don’t care about Ocean View.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  8. Fredflintstone

    Fredflintstone TUG Member

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    Years ago I had 9 timeshares. I used to pay over 10 k a year MF and these were not brand name places. I was regularly a victim of changing terms that reduced the value of my points. Oh, and those special assessments were painful. The BOD made it clear in their newsletters who the boss was. RCI jacked up their fees yearly without mercy. When I exchanged, I paid around 300 per exchange fee PER WEEK if I could even find an exchange available. In Hawaii, I got 4 to 5 weeks exchange at an average price of 11 k including fees.

    Now I pay on average 7 k all in for 5 weeks. The 4 K I save covers airfare, car and spending money.

    No contracts, no added fees, no hassle and NO commitment. I am now in the drivers seat versus the BOD or resort.

    In my opinion, it just is the way to go.

    Actually, I get a kick out of finding those rental gems at bargain prices too.

    I know Timeshare Users Group — timeshare owners. I am ready for my tongue lashing

    I do respect all of you on your vacation decisions. If timeshare is for you, do it. If it’s not, don’t.






    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019
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  9. pianodinosaur

    pianodinosaur TUG Review Crew: Veteran TUG Member

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    I am at the HGVC Elite plus level and own two weeks with MVCI. We have been with HGVC since 2001 and MCVI since 2011. Both systems have their advantages and disadvantages. The advantage of being in both systems is greater flexibility and exchange power than either system offers by itself. Participating in both RCI and II has also given us more options.

    We have stayed at The Crane via an RCI exchange and had excellent service despite a hurricane. This was prior to the establishment of HGVC at The Crane. I would like to know why the OP considers the Barbados property a joke. We anticipate trips to the HGVC properties at Myrtle Beach and a Hilton Head in the near future. A new HGVC resort is currently under construction in Los Cabos and Maui. So, it seems that HGVC is making a concerted effort to expand its internal options.

    We will spend 5 days in a Rome at The Hilton Cavalieri using HHONORS followed by a nine day Greek Island Cruise using HGVC points later this year. We will have two timeshare exchanges prior to that via MCVI and II. Not a bad way to start my retirement.
     
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  10. Finsadbel

    Finsadbel TUG Member

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    I do respect all of you on your vacation decisions. If timeshare is for you, do it. If it’s not, don’t.






    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

    Well put. When I saw the amount of points I had to look again. Everyone has their own way of vacationing and if you can buy 29,000 MVC points, then good for you!
     
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  11. Fredflintstone

    Fredflintstone TUG Member

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    Well put. When I saw the amount of points I had to look again. Everyone has their own way of vacationing and if you can buy 29,000 MVC points, then good for you![/QUOTE]

    Thank you. Even though I am not a fan of TS as, to me, the math doesn’t add up, I do respect those who choose TS. I am part of TUG not because of TS but because of the wonderful people here and sometimes capitalize on the bargain rental deals. Some of those deals are unbeatable.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  12. bizaro86

    bizaro86 TUG Member

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    The part of this that I find offensive is that they haven't made good on a written contractual term. That isn't acceptable, imo, and I would keep escalating until they either agreed to reverse the deal or provide what was promised.
     
  13. CalGalTraveler

    CalGalTraveler TUG Member

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    Both systems have pros and cons. While I agree the MVC rental program is frictionless. IMHO it carries risk in that MVC could levy a tax on those rentals similar to the $3 per point they now levy on DC point resale purchases. They also could devalue the trust. Too easy to play shell games without an underlying deed to a specific property.
     
  14. Tamaradarann

    Tamaradarann TUG Review Crew: Veteran TUG Member

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    We have 34,600 HGVC points; all of them that we bought resale. We agree with the negative comments made here about HGVC sales staff and could add a few of our own. The HGVC direct sales program is meant to maximize the money for HGVC and the sales staff not meet the customer's needs at the best price. We have tried to negotiate to trade in properties with them at presentations to make our buying position more favorable to us, while still getting them a sale and making money, however, they have very strict rules which favor HGVC not the customer. Therefore, for most of us on TUG resale is the only purchasing decision that is worth discussing.

    We have gone to a number of MVC presentations in the distant past and while we wouldn't have bought from the developer, we didn't buy resale either. We have a desire to vacation in locations without a car and while Marriott has some very nice properties, until recently, they did not have any in locations that you could vacation comfortably without a car. Vacationing without a car in urban areas has the benefits of not having to pay for the cost of the rent a car, parking, and gas, as well as driving while intoxicated concerns if you party which we do. In the past we were actually told at a MVC presentation that Marriott does not have what we are looking for. I understand that has changed somewhat but we haven't gone to any MVC presentations recently.

    With our HGVC points we have vacationed about 120 nights a year since 2009 at HGVC resorts without a car in Miami South Beach, Honolulu, Las Vegas and New York City with maintenance costs of about $6000/year. That comes out to about $50/night We have also exchanged thought RCI to stay in New Orleans, San Diego, and San Francisco without a car.

    To summarize, if I was going to evaluate these two timeshare systems I would focus on benefits and costs of resale purchases of points in the respective timeshare systems to conclude how good they are. Evaluating the direct sales staff is an effort in evaluating how bad the timeshare systems are, and that is not fruitful.
     
  15. Ralph Sir Edward

    Ralph Sir Edward TUG Member

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    No tongue-lashing from me. That's a great deal. Do you know of any others like that? I own timeshares, but that doesn't stop me from bargain hunting.
    Actually, my timeshares are bargain hunting, as compared to owning a second home (which is why I own them, as a surrogate second home.)
     
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  16. Ralph Sir Edward

    Ralph Sir Edward TUG Member

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    Each to their own taste. My point was to show relative value. You could use the cheaper Honolulu HGVC (same points) instead, or a mix.
     
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  17. DazedandConfused

    DazedandConfused Guest

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    Three very impressive statements!!!
     
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  18. CalGalTraveler

    CalGalTraveler TUG Member

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    I like your idea about renting points. My biggest reservation is that this is a game stacked in favor of the house. So IMHO it it safer to place small resale bets on windows of opportunities than bet big. I would rather play the stock market than bet big that timeshare providers won't close loopholes on points trusts where they have full control vs. deeds which are legally bound by a contract. However you may have more money so perhaps the overall risk is small.

    Our resale deeded holdings at HGV and Vistana give us deeply discounted vacations for premier units (OF Maui at the Westin, and NYC) during peak season. We've traded our Vegas club points for Hawaii, Cabo and Italy for a fraction of the cost to rent. The minute the discount equation doesn't work we will bail and move on.

    If a TS company implodes because of resale so be it. The investment was small and we have already received our ROI. So we will continue to buy resale and place small bets. We may even pay a little money to enroll our Westin unit in the MVC points system so we can rent points - small bet. And pick up a free resale unit in Florida and enroll that in the points system for less than $5k.

    Resale is a small bet because you are 100% guaranteed not to lose money on money you haven't spent.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
  19. JIMinNC

    JIMinNC TUG Member

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    All I would say is comparing a $200/night condo rental like the one linked to a brand name resort like MVC or HGVC is somewhat like comparing apples and oranges - most of those don't have the onsite amenities, super-pools, on-site food and beverage, etc. Marriott rents their units at Maui Ocean Club for well over $435/night - even a 1BR non-ocean view can easily top $700/night in high season. Even non-branded condos in Kaanapali such as the Kaanapali Alii and the Whaler aren't all that much cheaper than the Marriott rates.

    Obviously, if the benefits of a brand name or a prime location aren't important to you as you suggest, then it would be foolish to pay for those benefits if all you want is a clean place to sleep and eat. We choose MVC and HGVC because we want to stay in a nice place that is comparable in decor, furnishings, and amenities to the hotels we prefer. While we too spend most of our time in Hawaii outdoors doing things, we do want the time we spend at the resort to fully meet our expectations and preferences.

    There is no right answer, it's each person's preference, but my only point is the $200/night rentals are not the same thing as HGVC or MVC.
     
  20. JIMinNC

    JIMinNC TUG Member

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    HGVC at Sea World
    On Maui, Marriott's Maui Ocean Club rents from Marriott at well over $486/night in prime season. February 1BR units are currently showing $700+/night with no view. If you can even find a 2BR unit, it's likely going to be $900/night or more when taxes are included. While VRBO rentals can be found for much less, they will likely not be at resorts with MVC-level amenities (as I noted above). You can of course find other by-owner rentals at Marriott's Maui Ocean Club on Redweek and other timeshare-oriented rental sites, but then you have to deal with the risks, prepayment, and limited-to-no cancellation rights of person-to-person transactions. Some people are willing to do that to save some money; others are not.

    As I noted above, it depends on what your individual goals and preferences are.
     
    Fredflintstone likes this.
  21. Tamaradarann

    Tamaradarann TUG Review Crew: Veteran TUG Member

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    Zerocylinders said:
    Two different issues here.

    With respect to HGVC, the points we bought are clearly more than we need but they are all at properties we regularly visit. In past years, I have been successful in renting out the weeks we are not using. I never broke even (versus maintenance fees) but I have always done better versus the cost of renting every year. My complaint is that this is a huge hassle and the MVC and DVC systems are much superior, with a lot less friction when dealing with extra points/weeks. The problem will be more significant now that we are moving to MVC though.

    With respect to MVC, you should look at my posts over at the MVC forum. In a nutshell though, I am actually getting a return from renting the points I am not using. For example, disregarding the incentive points, in 2020 our total MFs for 29K points was only about 10K. We rented out 24K points for nearly 15K, and we used the remaining 5K points for 2020 reservations. Net result? We were paid about $5,000 net of maintenance fees, and we still had 5,000 points to use. And, it took me 3 days to rent my MVC points and collect the cash. Try that with HGVC (and, if you know of some secret please share!). To get these great economics, though, you do have to make a big investment in MVC, which is how we ended up with so many points.


    It seems that you have the rental of points and weeks as a significant reason for your ownership of the timeshares; perhaps it is because you own too many points for your personal use. While we were still working we had too many points so we rented some one bedroom weeks that we owned at our resort in Miami South Beach for about $2500/week during times when events were going on. However, once we retired we can use all of our points so renting is not an issue. I don't know the Marriott rental program so I can't comment on it. I will not challenge that the Marriott Rental Program is superior to trying to rent HGVC weeks. All I will say is that our experience with using the HGVC timeshare system has been great, and from what I learned about the Marriott timeshare system from presentations was not as attractive.
     
  22. ski_sierra

    ski_sierra TUG Member

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    OP has provided an excellent perspective on both systems. What I enjoy about this discussion is prospective buyers can figure out if a particular system is a better fit for their needs.


    I have a 7000 points resale week with HGVC and have looked into MVC points as well. After studying both systems, I have come to the conclusion that MVC and HGVC systems are Pareto optimal options. That's why both have their own fanbases as opposed to Westgate or Diamond.

    Marriott is a great system for those who can invest a signifcant amount as there are economies of scale. Based on zerocylinder's posts in the Marriott forum, he/she has spent over $100k in upfront cost for 29k MVC points. It represents a significant commitment since the purchase incurs $30-40k depreciation after rescission period due to MVC's resale policies.

    I think MVC has figured out how to make their program more attractive to high income/net worth prospects. Their program is also designed to extract significant commitment from such people.

    One can play into the HGVC cost effectively with an investment of only $6-10k. You don't need to make a big commitment and you don't see a signficant depreciation immediately. It does have all the limitations mentioned in the OP. HGVC follows unbundled approach with lots of fees - reservation fees, guest fees, points saving fees, etc. I believe all these fees are bundled in MVC in the program fee but resorts have higher MF.

    If MVC points system was accessible cost-effectively to resale buyers, I'd have definitely bought MVC along with HGVC, as I see myself visiting locations in both systems. But as it stands, I'm unlikely to buy into MVC points system. MVC is not a good system for people like me who want to spend 1-2 weeks per year at MVC properties in 1 BR. HGVC works well for that use case but it doesn't have as many locations so I bought other timeshares as well.
     
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  23. Tamaradarann

    Tamaradarann TUG Review Crew: Veteran TUG Member

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    I must add the following: Whole ownership is superior to timesharing at a superior price! A much superior price. If you've got the money, and some people do, go for it.
     
  24. tombanjo

    tombanjo TUG Member

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    I can certainly agree with some of your observations, and can see you have made a considerable investment in HGVC. I'm sorry it has not paid off for you in terms of enjoyment.

    Now comes the "However" -

    The owners of bHC and HCNY have a different booking window, which is not really exclusive or almost exclusive access, and have the same access to other HGVC properties as any other owner has to properties outside their own portfolio. The adage of "Buy where you want to make sure you can book" is fully evident in NYC. I realize HGVC salespeople for Sunrise Lodge screwed you over, and, yes, that is a significant negative on their part.

    Right now, West 57th is in "Club" season for a date I wanted, and I booked a December Saturday night after a week or two of constantly searching. While I own there, I had the exact same chance as all other HGVC owners for that date. I used my West 57 points in this case, but my "cheap" points would have the same booking power if I had any in my account.

    While the "Home Resort" season does give an advantage to owners, owners pay for that in higher buy ins and cost per point in MF. And, I still need to compete with all other owners for bookings. I can't just log in and book what ever date I want.

    If HGVC was less "balkanized", or more egalitarian, a week in silver season might be might be 25,000 points at West 57th where vegas mud season would still be 1000. Trying to bring the various properties of the HGVC menagerie into a single, uniform, platform is probably impossible due to the diverse deeds and contracts. Hilton Club New York is an complete outlier in the HGVC universe, and I see no practically way to bring it into the fold with out spending years to buy back all the deeds and re-swizzle them.

    Understanding the ins and outs of the system give people the ability to "arbitrage" properties, MF's and points to gain value. It is not straight forward, and certainly requires planning and research to get the value.

    A "pure" points based, with no home resort or week system has its advantages, and obviously MVC is the major player in the timeshare industry, but I still choose HGVC as I could see how it met my needs better than other systems.
     
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  25. hdins

    hdins TUG Member

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    Thanks for everyone sharing in this post. One of the best discussions ever.
     
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