Why are time shares a scam??

[4Sunsets]

90% of most people do not understand any contracts at all, sign without reading, trust the salespeople and racketeers, do not know how to maintain their finances or even do basic algebra. I think this is a problem across all industries.

So true

 

[4Sunsets]

Every single dollar we spend is a decision and with that comes the responsibility to make an informed and wise decision. Does anyone do that with every single dollar they spend? Of course not. Many of us had parents who tried to teach us and guide us. Investment consulting, financial advisers, debt management are big businesses. Consumer Reports made a business out of doing our homework for us when it comes to purchasing many things. We pay people for the knowledge we don't have; to do the work we can't or don't want to do. With the internet and a little time and effort we can now find out for ourselves just about anything we want to know. Even with all the resources available to us there are still no guarantees that a seemingly good decision will turn out well or that a bad decision will turn out poorly. And the saying that "there is a sucker born every minute" will always be true.

We bought developer for some but not all of our timeshare purchases so we always accepted that we fell into the sucker category. However back when we were first buying in 2002 I wouldn't have touched resale on a dare. But in time with more computer experience, more information available on the internet and learning on TUG I started dipping my toes into the resale waters. Reading the posts on this thread brought up an interesting discussion with my husband.

1. We bought our first brand new car in 39 years of being married when my husband retired last year. We always bought good used cars and kept them. Five in 39 years. If we had been buying new cars every 4 or 5 years like many/most people do we would have spent about the same amount as we've spent on all our timeshare purchases, developer and resale, and have nothing to show for it. If I had it to do over I would make that same financial mistake again. Funny that people who buy new cars, and more expensive cars than we do, would call us fools for what we've spent on timeshares. The timeshare experiences and memories we've made have given us more pleasure than any car ever could. Our families, our son, DIL and granddaughters also have those experiences and memories too. And we will continue to have those wonderful stays and make more memories.

2. We made a list and counted up the number of resorts we've stayed at over our years of owning. And that number is 50! My husband asked me if I had any idea how many nights we stayed in the timeshares. I'm a numbers person but we've owned for 17 years and even I can't come up with a guesstimate. I've posted before that my husband lived out of the timeshares for 17 weeks and a few nights in 2010 and 2011. It was after he he was downsized from his job up North and moved to Florida to take a new job for the few years he needed before retirement. That alone was 122 nights and we took vacations that year before he lost his job. January was Florida, March was Las Vegas, May was Myrtle Beach and a few nights in July over the 4th was DC. Had he not lost his job September or October would have been another trip either back to Vegas or Myrtle Beach. Except for the few nights in DC that had been our routine of vacation time for at least the previous five years. And that isn't even counting the trips our son took. A few nights in DC for a conference for several years and once he turned 21 and could check in on his own there were trips to Vegas, Myrtle Beach and Florida with friends and his then fiancee. After we got settled in Florida because my husband covered all of Florida from Sarasota over to Fort Pierce and clear down to Key West whenever I found a good reservation and he could arrange a few days work that area we went. Almost every paid holiday or unpaid holiday we combined work for him with a stay until he retired last year. Sometimes he would take a a vacation day to give him a long or longer weekend when there was a paid holiday. We've been using well over a 100 nights a year in the timeshares for the last 9 years alone. Once in a while we have stays that cost us more than $50 a night but not very often at all. Most of the time the cost of our stays range from $25-$40 a night. And I can count on one hand with fingers left over the number of times we've stayed in a studio. Mostly two bedroom units followed by one bedroom units with some three and four bedroom units in there too.

So yeah we were scammed and were suckers and it's a darned shame about how it's worked out for us. Lol!

Yes, haha... it's great that you were able to pick up cheap weeks and enjoy them. But your experience is hardly the majority.

Meanwhile a lot of people spent $80K a unit and yes, they are very angry about it. Others are in to Marriott to the tune of 1/4 to 1/2 million dollars, so yeah, they are screaming angry when they find out others paid pennies while they paid full retail.

So yes, it's easy to say haha on everyone else... but shameful as well.

 

[Gypsy65]

Yes, haha... it's great that you were able to pick up cheap weeks and enjoy them. But your experience is hardly the majority.

Meanwhile a lot of people spent $80K a unit and yes, they are very angry about it. Others are in to Marriott to the tune of 1/4 to 1/2 million dollars, so yeah, they are screaming angry when they find out others paid pennies while they paid full retail.

So yes, it's easy to say haha on everyone else... but shameful as well.

Did I just read that correctly??

There are people. And based on the comment not just one particular person but rather many who spent $250,000 to $500,000 on timeshares and feel ripped off???

We are talking US dollars and not some type of Pesos or Monopoly money here correct?

If so. I assume anyone spending that amount on a timeshare is either educated to have that much disposable cash laying around or they inherited it

In either situation they can afford to take the hit and can mark it up as a valuable lesson learned

My guess is that anyone pissed off because THEY spent $500,000 on a TS deserves to take the hit and be quiet as there is no way any normal thinking person would lay that much down on a whim

 

[Jan M.]

Yes, haha... it's great that you were able to pick up cheap weeks and enjoy them. But your experience is hardly the majority.

Meanwhile a lot of people spent $80K a unit and yes, they are very angry about it. Others are in to Marriott to the tune of 1/4 to 1/2 million dollars, so yeah, they are screaming angry when they find out others paid pennies while they paid full retail.

So yes, it's easy to say haha on everyone else... but shameful as well.

I've never met anyone who spent $500k on their timeshares. I'm not saying no one did, just that I've never met any of them in all of our stays. $175k to probably $250k, yes definitely. I've also met plenty of people who own all or mostly resale. They don't get the developer benefits that we do and they are fine with that considering what they paid.

We are Wyndham platinum VIP and presidential reserve too. That comes with a steep price tag. That money is gone and we refuse to cry about what we spent or be angry. An acquaintance told me if you're going to be bitter and angry about what you spent, walk away and get out. Don't be "one of those people" who go to the resorts and just have to tell everyone how they were ripped off and how horrible their experience was. People are on vacation as are you and vacations are meant to be enjoyed. You can choose to let it eat at you or you can let it go and learn to make the most of what you have. I decided that was excellent advise. And after meeting several of "those people" I was very glad I decided not to be one of them.

I took learning to make the most of what we own to heart. I was willing to put the time and effort into both learning and searching for stays. I frequently hear and see people whining about what they spent and that they can't find the reservations they want. Quite obviously that is not my experience. But we have always been able to be somewhat flexible about when we could go even before we retired and now that isn't a consideration at all. It also makes a huge difference that we are open to trying new resorts and places. If someone has to have a certain week and only wants one specific resort then they aren't willing to make it work for themselves. Finding a fixed week at a resort they want would have been a better fit. I do have sympathy for people who made the mistake of buying a product that isn't a good fit for their wants and needs.

We've enjoyed talking to other owners at the TUG get togethers in Orlando and meeting other owners at the resorts we've stayed at who use their timeshares extensively. There are a lot of owners out there who use their timeshares as wisely as we do and go way more than we do. And most of them made at least some developer purchases. One owns something like 2.5M Wyndham points all purchased developer and we have never heard whining about what they spent. What we have heard are many great stories about the wonderful times they had. The money is gone but the memories aren't and those memories are precious to many of us.

We could easily have bought a second home for what we spent but neither of us ever wanted the work and headaches of owning and maintaining a second home. Plus we wanted to be able to go wherever we felt like going. That was the reason going with points over fixed weeks appealed to us. We could also have chosen to buy new higher end cars every few years instead of buying used cars and keeping them. The first brand new car we purchased in 39 years was a new Toyota Camry for $21k out the door. We got a fantastic deal. My husband and son delight in telling me what different vehicles cost because I'm one of those not even if I won the lottery people. When we are driving on the interstates to our destinations we frequently see motor homes with price tags of anywhere from $150k to mid to high $400k range. We talk about the expenses of owning and operating them. About what it costs per night to stay in a campground because it has gotten a lot more expensive as my sister and BIL found out a few years ago. We always come to the conclusion that although if we had known more in the beginning we could have spent less what we have suits us and we are happy with it. Sometimes it helps to put what you spent into perspective.

 

[WVBaker]

Meanwhile a lot of people spent $80K a unit and yes, they are very angry about it. Others are in to Marriott to the tune of 1/4 to 1/2 million dollars, so yeah, they are screaming angry when they find out others paid pennies while they paid full retail.

You surely understand these people were not kidnapped and forced in some way to buy these timeshares. An important fact about a free market is that no exchange of product or service takes place unless and until both parties agree. Those choices create an accountability to learn and understand any and all risks prior to investing. Unfortunately, in a free market system sometimes people invest their money, hoping to get some type a return on that investment and don't.

 

[OldGuy]

A good summary of the opposite of how timeshares are sold.

I'm chuckling about the kidnapped and forced, which is more like not exactly kidnapped, but close, and not forced, but close.

If a little bit of captivity and pressure was not a part of it, very few timeshares would be purchased . . . people don't just walk in off the street, when they want, how they want, to buy timeshares.

Or do they now? It's been awhile since we went through that process.

 

[WVBaker]

A good summary of the opposite of how timeshares are sold.

I'm chuckling about the kidnapped and forced, which is more like not exactly kidnapped, but close, and not forced, but close.

If a little bit of captivity and pressure was not a part of it, very few timeshares would be purchased . . . people don't just walk in off the street, when they want, how they want, to buy timeshares.

Or do they now? It's been awhile since we went through that process.

I disagree... But, I agree to disagree... Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Gypsy65]

I've never met anyone who spent $500k on their timeshares. I'm not saying no one did, just that I've never met any of them in all of our stays. $175k to probably $250k, yes definitely. I've also met plenty of people who own all or mostly resale. They don't get the developer benefits that we do and they are fine with that considering what they paid.

We are Wyndham platinum VIP and presidential reserve too. That comes with a steep price tag. That money is gone and we refuse to cry about what we spent or be angry. An acquaintance told me if you're going to be bitter and angry about what you spent, walk away and get out. Don't be "one of those people" who go to the resorts and just have to tell everyone how they were ripped off and how horrible their experience was. People are on vacation as are you and vacations are meant to be enjoyed. You can choose to let it eat at you or you can let it go and learn to make the most of what you have. I decided that was excellent advise. And after meeting several of "those people" I was very glad I decided not to be one of them.

I took learning to make the most of what we own to heart. I was willing to put the time and effort into both learning and searching for stays. I frequently hear and see people whining about what they spent and that they can't find the reservations they want. Quite obviously that is not my experience. But we have always been able to be somewhat flexible about when we could go even before we retired and now that isn't a consideration at all. It also makes a huge difference that we are open to trying new resorts and places. If someone has to have a certain week and only wants one specific resort then they aren't willing to make it work for themselves. Finding a fixed week at a resort they want would have been a better fit. I do have sympathy for people who made the mistake of buying a product that isn't a good fit for their wants and needs.

We've enjoyed talking to other owners at the TUG get togethers in Orlando and meeting other owners at the resorts we've stayed at who use their timeshares extensively. There are a lot of owners out there who use their timeshares as wisely as we do and go way more than we do. And most of them made at least some developer purchases. One owns something like 2.5M Wyndham points all purchased developer and we have never heard whining about what they spent. What we have heard are many great stories about the wonderful times they had. The money is gone but the memories aren't and those memories are precious to many of us.

We could easily have bought a second home for what we spent but neither of us ever wanted the work and headaches of owning and maintaining a second home. Plus we wanted to be able to go wherever we felt like going. That was the reason going with points over fixed weeks appealed to us. We could also have chosen to buy new higher end cars every few years instead of buying used cars and keeping them. The first brand new car we purchased in 39 years was a new Toyota Camry for $21k out the door. We got a fantastic deal. My husband and son delight in telling me what different vehicles cost because I'm one of those not even if I won the lottery people. When we are driving on the interstates to our destinations we frequently see motor homes with price tags of anywhere from $150k to mid to high $400k range. We talk about the expenses of owning and operating them. About what it costs per night to stay in a campground because it has gotten a lot more expensive as my sister and BIL found out a few years ago. We always come to the conclusion that although if we had known more in the beginning we could have spent less what we have suits us and we are happy with it. Sometimes it helps to put what you spent into perspective.

Perfectly said!!!

That second home you mention is supposed to be a getaway but many of my friends who own those spend all week maintaining their personal home. Then all weekend doing the same to that “ vacation “ home. All work period!!!

The point of any of this is a vacation and good time. Mowing and cleaning is neither

 

[OldGuy]

= 'Tis the times we live in, I'm afraid.

 

[OldGuy]

I disagree... But, I agree to disagree... Wouldn't you agree?

well uh ok

I was picturing OLCC, where prospects park, go into the sales building, then get hauled off to another area, away from their cars. It's not like they can just leave when they want to.

Having been in direct sales for ten years, although that's not a requisite for understanding what's going on, I know the timeshare sales process is designed to break down the prospects' free will. It's all on the side of the seller.

Just to show I kid you not, here's Orange Lake, and I've noted the sales center:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/O...6f883598df8d01!8m2!3d28.3553013!4d-81.6118459

You can zoom in and out, or whatever, and see the HUGE parking lot there, and there is no other part of the resort even close.

So, prospects go in, get matched up, chit-chat to break the ice (Pretalk in the direct selling game), and then are loaded onto a golf-cart-type vehicle, and they head off to the hinterlands . . . River Island, East Village, North Village, West Village.

They may not be legally kidnapped, but they are captive . . . until their tour guide releases them, four hours later. By then, their kids at the motel have put out a BOLO for them.

No need to post links to reviews of the tour, cuz y'all know what they say.

 

[Gypsy65]

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[OldGuy]

walk away and get out.

OK, sounds like a plan.

 

[Janann]

I was picturing OLCC, where prospects park, go into the sales building, then get hauled off to another area, away from their cars. It's not like they can just leave when they want to.

This is where an Uber or Lyft app is a lifesaver. Just go outside and get a ride back to your car.

But I know there are timeshares in Mexico and other countries where you really are trapped, and there isn't a way back to the main town or even your hotel unless the timeshare people give you a ride.

 

[LannyPC]

You surely understand these people were not kidnapped and forced in some way to buy these timeshares.

Yes, that is true. But the methods that the sales people use is nearly tantamount to doing so by withholding the "Gift" until the potential buyer(s) sign on the dotted line.

 

[Fredflintstone]

Yes, that is true. But the methods that the sales people use is nearly tantamount to doing so by withholding the "Gift" until the potential buyer(s) sign on the dotted line.

I guess the old saying still rings true.

There’s no such thing as a free lunch


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[OldGuy]

This is where an Uber or Lyft app is a lifesaver. Just go outside and get a ride back to your car.

That would be funny, but what would they tell security to get past the gate?

"I'm here to rescue a tour victim." ????!!!!

 

[OldGuy]

One of the funniest ones was the first week DW and I did tours, to underwrite our first vacation together, and the week we bought our first timeshare. So, the scenario was that we were younger, trusting, naive, vulnerable, and with no Internet, no TUG, no way to be informed because Al Gore had not got it up and running yet.

Our week was centered in that familiar 192/Irlo Bronson Parkway area, but most of what is there now was not there. West of I4 there was OLCC and Wastegate, and an RV timeshare campground. OLCC was just the golf villas in what is now the West Village, and Wastegate was a clubhouse, Bldg. A, and a marketing tent. There was nothing else there yet.

Incidental, our tour guide at OLCC had more than 10 couples, and when we toured the property we did it in a train of golf carts. Of course, he was unable to exert any sort of control over that large a group, when the time came, we all bolted.

In digress. We would do a breakfast tour . . . go do whatever attraction we got tickets for, do another breakfast tour the next day . . . then go do whatever attraction we got tickets for . . .

By the end of the week, for some reason all that I wanted was the Mickey Mouse phone they were giving away at the RV resort, so we did that one. About 10 minutes into the pitch, the saleslady said, "I can see you're not interested. Sit here another 45 minutes and then go get your gift."

We did.

15 or 20 minutes later a manager-type guy came by and asked us what we were doing, and we told him. He laughed and said, "Go get your gift."

In our last TS tour, which was our last timeshare tour, maybe five or six years ago, this one at Wastegate, our salesman did the same thing, got up and went outside for a cigarette, and never came back.

What were we talking about . . . let me look . . . oh, sorry.

 

[WVBaker]

Yes, that is true. But the methods that the sales people use is nearly tantamount to doing so by withholding the "Gift" until the potential buyer(s) sign on the dotted line.

Understand that I'm not defending the tactics used by timeshare salesmen or saleswoman.

A buyer however, needs to recognize the tactics of normal sales and high-pressure sales. A good seller empowers you with information and options. They will let the buyer reach a confident decision on your their own. A predatory seller, which most timeshare sellers are, works to undermine your gut feeling and push you into a deal you know you can't afford. Objectionable and unsavoury, of course, however the buyer still has the right to just walk away. Sometimes, the best way to win a fight is to just walk away, and timeshare sales presentations are no exception.

The sales person must work to keep you invested in that transaction. When the buyer can walk away, they are in control of the deal. They're not being held against their will and they have not been kidnapped. They remain simply because of their own greed and desire for some "free" gift.

 

[OldGuy]

Yes, that is true. But the methods that the sales people use is nearly tantamount to doing so by withholding the "Gift" until the potential buyer(s) sign on the dotted line.

Yeah, it's a fine line between kidnapped, and unwillingly restrained.



C'mon folks, let's get real, for the average common person, not a highly-educated, omniscient TUG veteran, timeshare sales tours can be highly uncomfortable, intimidating, and downright unpleasant. After an ample amount of pressure has been applied, it gets elevated. It doesn't take a google search to confirm that, but one would.

 

[WVBaker]

Yeah, it's a fine line between kidnapped, and unwillingly restrained.



C'mon folks, let's get real, for the average common person, not a highly-educated, omniscient TUG veteran, timeshare sales tours can be highly uncomfortable, intimidating, and downright unpleasant. After an ample amount of pressure has been applied, it gets elevated. It doesn't take a google search to confirm that, but one would.

And yet these average, common, not highly educated, non-omniscient TUG veteran individuals can still stand and leave these highly uncomfortable, intimidating, and downright unpleasant presentations at any moment. This of course leads back to the common reason they don't.

 

[OldGuy]

Has anyone figured out that this was not intended to be an enlightening thread?

 

[OldGuy]

This of course leads back to the common reason they don't.

masochism?

 

[OldGuy]

I was just thinking that all consumers know that they should not make a spur-of-the-moment purchase, and that one-time offers are dubious.

Well, sellers know that, too.

But, not only do they not discourage it, but they do everything to encourage it, it is SOP, because, after all, this offer is only available now, during this visit.

Then, after the three-four hours it took to get the buyer to buy, let's hang around for an other couple of hours, and initial page after page after page. Why is the commissioned salesperson not involved in the closing, and, since there's so much paperwork, why not just come back tomorrow and do the closing?

We all know the whys.

Real real estate closings are long after the sale.

 

[cnymike]

I recently went to an “owner’s update” at a Wyndham property. I knew ahead of time what was going to happen. It’s essentially the same every time. And yet, they keep coming up with ways to spin the same old story and make the pitch very enticing. Of course the pitch doesn’t come right away. They spend a good amount of time chit-chatting and showing you photos of the great vacations they’ve been on... and there is usually a guy or gal lurking nearby pretending to read a newspaper or feigning that they are doing paperwork. That’s the person who is listening in on the whole conversation and likely to give the salesperson advice when you leave to go to the bathroom or get a “free” snack or coffee. That lurking person gives the salesperson advice on how to proceed based on what he’s heard. I know this is a fact because I quietly came back to the room and heard the lurker tell the sales person to
“get back on track” with the conversation.

Anyway, at the point in time where the actual pitch occurred, he left to get some paperwork to see if my ownership could transfer into the new program that Wyndham has and wouldn’t you know, it could. and the current price for 105,000 more points would be $253/1000 points. But amazingly enough (haha) there was a previous quote that was for some unknown reason still in my account and that offered the points at $186/1000 points. A HUGE savings right? And since this wasn’t really supposed to be available to me anymore since it was an old quote, I would have to accept or decline the offer immediately.
That’s the kind of BS that I hate about the presentations. They put the pressure on you to make a decision and the fear is that if you don’t buy, you will lose out on the great deal.

 

[WVBaker]

I was just thinking that all consumers know that they should not make a spur-of-the-moment purchase, and that one-time offers are dubious.

Well, sellers know that, too.

But, not only do they not discourage it, but they do everything to encourage it, it is SOP, because, after all, this offer is only available now, during this visit.

Then, after the three-four hours it took to get the buyer to buy, let's hang around for an other couple of hours, and initial page after page after page. Why is the commissioned salesperson not involved in the closing, and, since there's so much paperwork, why not just come back tomorrow and do the closing?

We all know the whys.

Real real estate closings are long after the sale.

Okay, one more time.

Of course they don't discourage it. Like it or not, it's their job to sell the buyer a product, which in this case is a timeshare. They have no ethical duty to educate the public in all the possible drawbacks of buying a timeshare.

Do car salesman discourage a sale? Do realtors discourage a sale? Do life insurance salesman discourage a sale? Of course not.
The same person who says “I hate timeshare salesman” in reality, hate themselves. They are the ones who chose to sit through that hours long presentation, instead of simply saying adios and leave. They are also the same one who decided to put their "John Hancock" on the papers. There's no coercion, duress or intimidation, implied or otherwise. They won't sit there, holding your trembling
hand, guiding it as you sign with beads of sweat dripping down your forehead as you scream NOOOOOO.

A bit dramatic, but you see the point.