Which Points-to-MF Ratio do you strive for / consider a good deal when shopping resales?

[2travelinggoatz]

Hello again everyone... looking forward to your thoughts on this so, as a novice, I have a clearer understanding as to when to pull the trigger and purchase. Thanks so much!!

 

[dayooper]

Hello again everyone... looking forward to your thoughts on this so, as a novice, I have a clearer understanding as to when to pull the trigger and purchase. Thanks so much!!

It all depends on what is OK with you. I believe many use the 0.15 MF/point mark. As a reference, that would be right where HGVC at The Flamingo is. Next year, due to rising MF's, it will probably be above that point.

 

[PigsDad]

I agree that it depends. I have three weeks that range from $.165 to $.177/point which I am fine with. Two of my weeks are fixed week, ocean front weeks which I consider a bargain for the maintenance fee, and I almost always use those weeks. My third week is just for points and while I could have done better (it was my first week that I purchased, resale of course), I still find good value with those points. If I knew 13 years ago what I know now, I probably would have purchased a better MF/point ratio property, but that is water under the bridge.

I am currently in the process of another purchase which will include a ski week with a MF of $.168/point. To me, that will be my best bargain yet due to the comparable price I would have to pay to rent the same week. Like the ocean front weeks, I plan on using that week as well, so I am not just purchasing it for points.

BTW, these are all 2019 MF prices.

Kurt

 

[Jason245]

Imho you can drive yourself nuts looking for thr "best combination ".

Consider the following facts:

1. The original owner paid north of 20-30k minimum for what you are buying. (Saving you over 20k right out the gate ).

2. At the end of the day you are generally talking about a 500 dollar difference maximum on mf for same point unit lowest mf to highest.

3. The payback for that savings is usual around 10 years (price paid for lower fee vs price paid for higher fee).

4. The value of timeshares can only ever go down(except for dvc which is a unicorn ).


My take is buy based on 2 criteria:

1. If you need home week preferences..buy where you want to go as that is only way to guarantee you get what you want.

2. Spend the least amount possible for the least amount of points you need (don't overbuy), but preferably a Plat season point.

If 500 extra bucks in mf a year makes or breaks you in the purchase decision, then you probably shouldn't be buying in the first place.



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[alexadeparis]

I have a general one I apply to all my timeshares, not just HGVC. Whatever points currency value gets me a unit in the highest season at a rated (RCI Gold Crown or the II premier/elite) resort should be equal to right around $125 per bedroom per night, including MF and Exchange fees if applicable. In this case, I’ll use 9600 for a 3 bed HGVC unit. I have 2 4800 point Bay club units that cost me right around $2,500 with club fee per use.

So for me, a 3 bedroom unit is worth, at Max, barring some very special circumstances, $2500 in MF for a week’s use, a 2 bedroom should cost me no more than $1650 for a week’s use, and a 1 bedroom should have a total cost of $825 or less. We don’t book studios unless we are getting additional rooms for family to join us, but I would value that slightly less, at $500 per week. That’s my standard. My WSJ 3 bedroom pool villa exceeds that formula, but is very special, so that is the ONE exception to my usual rule.

 

[2travelinggoatz]

Imho you can drive yourself nuts looking for thr "best combination ".

Consider the following facts:

1. The original owner paid north of 20-30k minimum for what you are buying. (Saving you over 20k right out the gate ).

2. At the end of the day you are generally talking about a 500 dollar difference maximum on mf for same point unit lowest mf to highest.

3. The payback for that savings is usual around 10 years (price paid for lower fee vs price paid for higher fee).

4. The value of timeshares can only ever go down(except for dvc which is a unicorn ).


My take is buy based on 2 criteria:

1. If you need home week preferences..buy where you want to go as that is only way to guarantee you get what you want.

2. Spend the least amount possible for the least amount of points you need (don't overbuy), but preferably a Plat season point.

If 500 extra bucks in mf a year makes or breaks you in the purchase decision, then you probably shouldn't be buying in the first place.



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All good analysis, thank you. I am one of those people who turns things inside out looking at all possible angles and viewpoints before purchasing. This board has been SUPER helpful and I feel a lot more empowered and comfortable that I can now make a wise purchase. Could not have done it without my fellow Tuggers, though, so thank you, thank you!! I am now hoping to buy at Craigendarroch Lodges both for actual vacations there at times and points. My family lives in Europe, so that is a wise move (we are in the USA). So, let's see! Fingers crossed.

 

[PigsDad]

I have a general one I apply to all my timeshares, not just HGVC. Whatever points currency value gets me a unit in the highest season at a rated (RCI Gold Crown or the II premier/elite) resort should be equal to right around $125 per bedroom per night, including MF and Exchange fees if applicable.

If you are just looking for points, then I think a guideline like that is reasonable. But I think it can really depend on if you are looking for a specialized location and/or time. I mentioned above I am buying a ski week -- that is a 1BR for a MF of just over $1K. That would be a fair amount over your guideline, but compared to what I would have to pay for equivalent accommodations (around double my MF), it is a bargain.

Kurt

 

[GT75]

I agree with you Kurt. I know that I have looked at rentals for Breckenridge the most and also visited there the most. Since you are buying to utilize a fixed week, then that makes sense. If you were just buying for the points, then there are better deals out there.

I know that we have had threads before on "AirBnb/VRBO vs. TS". I have considered this when owning at Valdoro in particular. My conclusion is that I just like the known resort/location vs. spending more money anyways on a rental (at least in ski season). It is also, so much easier to make a TS reservation (which can be changed/cancelled very easily) vs. making a rental reservation and sending money now.

There is also an interesting thread on HGVC and Marriott MFs - here.

 

[Cyberc]

If you are just looking for points, then I think a guideline like that is reasonable. But I think it can really depend on if you are looking for a specialized location and/or time. I mentioned above I am buying a ski week -- that is a 1BR for a MF of just over $1K. That would be a fair amount over your guideline, but compared to what I would have to pay for equivalent accommodations (around double my MF), it is a bargain.

Kurt

I agree with you on this one.

I bought my first HGVC with the intention to use it and I do most years. My second was strictly for points so I bought (after loooong time looking) the cheapest US hgvc there was in terms of points to mf ratio. I bought a 1Br in Vegas wth 6.200 annual points. First one got taken by hgvc even before going into ROfR at $9.000 second one passed at $5.000 go figure.

The rule of thumb of buying platinum weeks does not come without at least one exception. My third hgvc was in NYC and I started by looking at a platinum week, in a studio I might add. It took several tries and the broker said you need to pay minimum $20k for it to pass rofr. My own research showed the same.

That got me researching even more because $20k is a lot of money. If $20k got me 5.250 points in a studio plus platinum week, how much the better studio premiere would cost for a week in gold season with 5.100 points?

Answer was $14k and My thoughts was I didn’t care for the 150 points which I “lost” each year by buying a gold week. Since the mf for both studios are the same I went ahead and bought it and it passed rofr.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

One other thing to consider. Your age. I mention this, as none of us are immortal. How long will you be using the timeshare/points? There is an economic balancing act for timeshares, between the resale purchase price and the MFs. A low MF is usually balanced with a higher purchase cost, even (especially?) resale. How long you amortize the purchase cost affect your MF/point ratio, by requiring you to add the amortized amount to the MF in your calc. The typical breakevens run around 10 years. each one is different, so you need to calculate them yourself.

 

[Panina]

Hello again everyone... looking forward to your thoughts on this so, as a novice, I have a clearer understanding as to when to pull the trigger and purchase. Thanks so much!!

Points-to-MF Ratio is only important if you don’t need your home reservation advantage. If for example you want to go to marco island’s eagles nest every February, best to own a week because trading into it will be extremely hard. If you want to go to Myrtle Beach every April, inventory is plenty and you will have no problem at 9 months out booking it.

Is there a certain place/ time you often want to go?

 

[SmithOp]

I agree with the other replies, specially age related. First purchased in my 40s and went with location so I could get the home resort advantage, mf ratio was not important.

Now I’m retired and can travel off season and maximize point stretching in gold season its a pure points play. Anything in the top 25 spreadsheet that GT has in the sticky.

It wasn’t easy to adjust ownership, I looked for a year before finding the right one. Getting rid of my early buys was easy.


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[CalGalTraveler]

In case you haven't seen this. Here is a helpful spreadsheet of the MF/points ratios for 2018 assembled by @GT75

Hilton Grand Vacations Club 2019 Maintenance Fee List

To summarize what others have stated previously:

1. Points only matter if you plan to trade in the HGV system.
2. If you want to stay within your desired home resort and need club options in your home resort e.g. shorter stay, different check in day. Then look for the best MF/point in your resort for the desired unit size - usually platinum.
3. Run the numbers to balance the higher cost of buy-in vs. lower MF/point cost. Look for your B/E based on how long you plan to own.
4. If one of the following is your frequent destination, lowest MF/point (aka "points are points") does not apply because you will need to own at these properties to get decent reservations consistently. Apply #2 and #3 above to the units at these properties.

• By Hilton Club (bHC) properties (NYC: W 57, HCNY, Residences, Quin; DC District)
• Oahu June, July, Aug, Xmas
• Florida Gulf high season
• Ski Weeks Valdoro, Sunrise
• Portugal

Good luck!

 

[hurnik]

I'll also throw in that MF ratio isn't necessarily the only calculation one should make, if just using "points are points" method.
The cost of the unit should be taken into consideration (IMO) and most of us that use this method also factor in either 10, 15, or 20 year breakdown.

Sometimes a free (or very low cost) unit with a slightly higher MF/point value may either be cheaper or "break even" if you have to spend $12-15k to get that "really low" MF/point valuation.


I've not got 4 contracts. Could I lower my MF/point ratio? Sure.
I'd have to give away (practically for free) my 3400 point unit and MAYBE get $1500 for my 4800 point unit and then I'd have to spend about $7k to replace it with a low-cost one (or if I really want the low one, probably would run about $16k)

All to get the average ratio from $0.175 or whatever it is now (have to recalculate) down to $0.16/point?
Not really worth it, IMO.

 

[dayooper]

I'll also throw in that MF ratio isn't necessarily the only calculation one should make, if just using "points are points" method.
The cost of the unit should be taken into consideration (IMO) and most of us that use this method also factor in either 10, 15, or 20 year breakdown.

Sometimes a free (or very low cost) unit with a slightly higher MF/point value may either be cheaper or "break even" if you have to spend $12-15k to get that "really low" MF/point valuation.


I've not got 4 contracts. Could I lower my MF/point ratio? Sure.
I'd have to give away (practically for free) my 3400 point unit and MAYBE get $1500 for my 4800 point unit and then I'd have to spend about $7k to replace it with a low-cost one (or if I really want the low one, probably would run about $16k)

All to get the average ratio from $0.175 or whatever it is now (have to recalculate) down to $0.16/point?
Not really worth it, IMO.

I totally agree with that sentiment. I think buying can e a bit different, though. If you are buying a "points is points" unit, you do want to find as low of a MF as you can. Should you include the buy in price? Absolutely. Should you consider how long you plan on using it? Absolutely! I also think what you can afford when you are ready to buy is a big deal too. We couldn't pay for a $9000 Boulevard unit with cash, but we could pay around $6000. So we found the best deal we could with that price point. Would I love to have that $850 MF from the Boulevard? Yup. We don't, but ours is still pretty low and cost us half as much.

We were very close to taking a free unit over the summer. We wound up turning it down because the MF's were too high and we would rarely have used the home week. The MF's for 3400 those points were more than our 7000 point platinum so we turned it down.

 

[alexadeparis]

If you are just looking for points, then I think a guideline like that is reasonable. But I think it can really depend on if you are looking for a specialized location and/or time. I mentioned above I am buying a ski week -- that is a 1BR for a MF of just over $1K. That would be a fair amount over your guideline, but compared to what I would have to pay for equivalent accommodations (around double my MF), it is a bargain.

Kurt

I agree that a ski week would probably merit special consideration, and $1k for a one bedroom IS a bargain for a ski week.

 

[2travelinggoatz]

Points-to-MF Ratio is only important if you don’t need your home reservation advantage. If for example you want to go to marco island’s eagles nest every February, best to own a week because trading into it will be extremely hard. If you want to go to Myrtle Beach every April, inventory is plenty and you will have no problem at 9 months out booking it.

Is there a certain place/ time you often want to go?

Hello Panina, for our first one, Craigendarroch is our best option. Fixed week is good and if we can't go, just convert to points and go wherever. Family can easily get to Scotland and the cost to travel is not cost-prohibitive for them. Other ideal locations would have been anywhere in Europe. We live in the USA, but my husband loves Portugal. I thought the next one we purchase would have to be in the USA and probably for summer travel if not just for points. But I just read the post below and now I am thinking Portugal. So, I will be on the lookout for a good deal next year sosometime Does this answer your question??

 

[2travelinggoatz]

In case you haven't seen this. Here is a helpful spreadsheet of the MF/points ratios for 2018 assembled by @GT75

Hilton Grand Vacations Club 2019 Maintenance Fee List

To summarize what others have stated previously:

1. Points only matter if you plan to trade in the HGV system.
2. If you want to stay within your desired home resort and need club options in your home resort e.g. shorter stay, different check in day. Then look for the best MF/point in your resort for the desired unit size - usually platinum.
3. Run the numbers to balance the higher cost of buy-in vs. lower MF/point cost. Look for your B/E based on how long you plan to own.
4. If one of the following is your frequent destination, lowest MF/point (aka "points are points") does not apply because you will need to own at these properties to get decent reservations consistently. Apply #2 and #3 above to the units at these properties.

• By Hilton Club (bHC) properties (NYC: W 57, HCNY, Residences, Quin; DC District)
• Oahu June, July, Aug, Xmas
• Florida Gulf high season
• Ski Weeks Valdoro, Sunrise
• Portugal

Good luck!

The one that made me gulp was Portugal! Oich!!! Really should own there then. USA will have to come after that. I have never seen Portugal resales so now I think that is what (esp my husband) would like to buy next. Thanks so much for this super helpful info! Really appreciate it.

 

[DazedandConfused]

In my opinion, there really is no 100% perfect single purchase with low buy-in cost and low anual dues. As if you have low annual dues, then the purchase price will be higher and if the purchase price is low, then the dues are generally higher.

However, a blend of 2 contracts can sorta meet in the middle by having an average cost that is on the low end for purchase and low end for annual dues.

It is generally best to buy the largest point contract for the same unit size (i.e. 1 bedroom Plus or Platinum or Premier, whatever they call it) as the dues will be the same as the lower point non-platinum rooms and it drives the cost per point lower.

On the other hand, you may be tempted to buy a mega cheap 5,000 or 7,000 gold week with slightly above average dues and initially the cost will be lower, but in 6-8 years or so, you will actually be paying more than if you bought a more expensive unit with lower dues. But it depends on how long you are an owner.

I find Las Vegas Boulevard and Kings Land to be pretty good sweet spots.

My sweet spot is around $1pp to buy (+/- 0.25) and .14 annual dues (+/- .03)

You may be able to buy at $0.50, but the dues will probably be .20

The lowest annual dues I have seen are .10 or so and generally are $1.50 to buy

 

[CalGalTraveler]

I find Las Vegas Boulevard and Kings Land to be pretty good sweet spots.

My sweet spot is around $1pp to buy (+/- 0.25) and .14 annual dues (+/- .03)

In Vegas, 7K platinum units at Paradise (.137 pp + $1 ppt), Flamingo and some 7K+ units in Elara, also meets this criteria. There may be a few others such as Scotland.

 

[DazedandConfused]

In Vegas, 7K platinum units at Paradise (.137 pp + $1 ppt), Flamingo and some 7K+ units in Elara, also meets this criteria. There might be a few others such as Scotland.

The Vegas units have generally reasonable buy-in and annual dues for HGVC and a point is a point. I would urge extreme caution for Elara as some resale are old Westgate

 

[Sky313]

In my opinion, there really is no 100% perfect single purchase with low buy-in cost and low anual dues. As if you have low annual dues, then the purchase price will be higher and if the purchase price is low, then the dues are generally higher.

However, a blend of 2 contracts can sorta meet in the middle by having an average cost that is on the low end for purchase and low end for annual dues.

It is generally best to buy the largest point contract for the same unit size (i.e. 1 bedroom Plus or Platinum or Premier, whatever they call it) as the dues will be the same as the lower point non-platinum rooms and it drives the cost per point lower.

On the other hand, you may be tempted to buy a mega cheap 5,000 or 7,000 gold week with slightly above average dues and initially the cost will be lower, but in 6-8 years or so, you will actually be paying more than if you bought a more expensive unit with lower dues. But it depends on how long you are an owner.

I find Las Vegas Boulevard and Kings Land to be pretty good sweet spots.

My sweet spot is around $1pp to buy (+/- 0.25) and .14 annual dues (+/- .03)

You may be able to buy at $0.50, but the dues will probably be .20

The lowest annual dues I have seen are .10 or so and generally are $1.50 to buy

And each year, the threshold for "average", "good", and "excellent" MF to point ratio will only increase. With regards to the annual dues and MF and $/point, i think it's important to note that you are using "low prices" or "great-great" deals as your benchmark. To get these #s, one has to continually monitor for the low prices/sweetspot and then pounce on it. That does take time and effort, or negotiation with the seller.

My personal view is that as of 2018/2019 0.11 mf/pt ratio is considered great-excellent. Less than 0.11 mf/pt ratios are golden goose eggs and are hard to find (harder to find unit combinations in Las Vegas), or expensive to purchase (ie: Ocean Tower). These golden goose eggs even on the resale spectrum have higher resale prices (if you can find them). Scotland is the exception as these can be had resale pretty easily by calling/emailing the HGVC/HIGVC sales division and have relatively low purchase entry for platinum units. The downside is the exchange rate is subject to fluctuation - right now is quite good, but can worsen in the future. Las Vegas platinium properties run from 0.12-0.15 on average and are good-great mf/pt ratios. Many others outside of Las Vegas now range above 0.15 mf/pt ratio. Based on the MF/pt list created in the sticky, the median is around 0.14-0.17 and to me that implies "average-good" mf/pt ratios - not bad per se, but just not as "feel good" as the others. The NY, Hawaii properties and ski-weeks on avg run higher (0.18 mf/pt and above) and although this is the case, they are considered more valuable so are not technically a bad purchase option if you use them as intended. The only way to get a "good/great/excellent /low" mf/pt ratio in Hawaii is to get one of the 14400 pt or higher pt packages, which have high entry point to purchase even on the resale spectrum.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

That's where the juggling comes in. A Kingsland 2 BDR Premier get 14,400 points. It will cost you north of $20,000 resale. 2 Bay Clubs 2BDR "A" Penthouses (at 7,000 points a week) will cost you $4-5,000 combined (if you're patient and look for deals). Say $16,000 difference, up front. Current maintenance fees for Kingsland are just under $1800, the maintenance fees for 2 Bay Clubs are currently around $3800 (with HGVC membership) or $2000 more.

16,000 divided by 2,000 = 8 years to break even. (closer to 10, if you consider the lost returns on the money paid up front.)

 

[Jason245]

That's where the juggling comes in. A Kingsland 2 BDR Premier get 14,400 points. It will cost you north of $20,000 resale. 2 Bay Clubs 2BDR "A" Penthouses (at 7,000 points a week) will cost you $4-5,000 combined (if you're patient and look for deals). Say $16,000 difference, up front. Current maintenance fees for Kingsland are just under $1800, the maintenance fees for 2 Bay Clubs are currently around $3800 (with HGVC membership) or $2000 more.

16,000 divided by 2,000 = 8 years to break even. (closer to 10, if you consider the lost returns on the money paid up front.)

But before you do this math, the OP needs to figure out how many points they need and will use annually. .

You only save 2k/year if you use all the points. . If you only use 5-7k points a year you just threw out a lot of money and get to watch it thrown out every year.

My philosophy is to always live in hgvc pocket (use up all your points and borrow some of next year's points for free..)

If you have to save points or convert to hotel points you bought to much and are paying hgvc even more money in fees for your error.

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[SmithOp]

My philosophy is to always live in hgvc pocket (use up all your points and borrow some of next year's points for free..)

If you have to save points or convert to hotel points you bought to much and are paying hgvc even more money in fees for your error.

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One mantra from TUG that I follow

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