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What do you consider "sales price" for ROFR & Comparison Purposes?

Discussion in 'Hilton Grand Vacations Club / HGVC' started by escanoe, Dec 2, 2018.

  1. escanoe

    escanoe TUG Member

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    I am not really sure what people include in reporting "sales price" for ROFR purposes or for doing $ per point comparisons.

    I have an ROFR offer in for somewhere between $809 or $3,653.41 depending on how one considers it. It is for a 1BR+ platinum (6,200 EOY odd year points) at Anderson Ocean Club.

    I was the high bidder on a Legacy eBay auction.

    Here is what I paid (all of which was disclosed on the sale document.)

    $809.00 eBay auction price
    $450.00 Closing costs
    $399.00 Resort transfer fee
    $599.00 Club activation fee
    $1,290.00 Maintenance fee pre-payment for 2019
    $106.41 Convenience fee (for convenience and safety of putting on credit card)
    $3653.41 Total

    Clem Swan at Legacy, has been stellar to deal with and all these fees were completely disclosed up front and factored into my bidding price. The only fee that seems a little odd to me is the 2019 MFs being reported at $1,290.00. According to the chart from last year the MFs were 728.83. I am thinking their figure has the 2019 increase and maybe 2 years of dues added in since it is EOY points? If that is the case, I'd like to get the membership portion back out of escrow since I am already an HGVC member. If that doesn't work out for me, I'm not going to be too bent out of shape.

    So when people say how much their offer was for ROFR purposes or for saying something like they paid $x per point, how do these fees factor in? I personally view my cost for the real estate interval being something like $3,653.41 minus the $1290 or whatever I end up pre-paying for MFs. I will get the 6,200 points for next year so I don't view the MF in my mind as being part of the purchase price.

    I wonder how HGVC considers the fees and MFs being prepaid when considering the offer for ROFR purposes? I suspect this will go through, but darned if I know. Once I find out I will report it on the ROFR sticky thread and on ROFR.net.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
  2. GT75

    GT75 Moderator

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    Are to asking what is report to HGV on the ROFR form or what is reported on ROFR.net?
     
  3. dayooper

    dayooper TUG Member

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    I don’t know what your broker will tell HGVC, but the only cost that “should” count is $809 price of the unit itself.
     
  4. tombanjo

    tombanjo TUG Member

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    The $809 is the sales price which would normally be used for ROFR. Since closing costs, convenience fee, etc are flexible in the sense not everyone would need to pay them the same way, they not the sales price of the unit, but part of your total cost. An estoppel should show a break down of what maintenance fees are owed and how many points are in the account. It is possible that someone took the every other year MF plus club dues, and halved it to report MF per year. IE $728 x 2 = $1456, - 176 = $1280.
     
  5. natarajanv

    natarajanv TUG Member

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    According to one broker, ROFR price is what it will cost HILTON to buy it back. Looking at your numbers it will be $3653.41 minus $399.00 Resort transfer fee
    $599.00 Club activation fee = ~ $2651.00. HILTON has to pay whatever the closing cost posted.

    This will definitely pass ROFR.
     
    escanoe likes this.
  6. GT75

    GT75 Moderator

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    For rofr.net purposes, I only posted the sales price. I didn't include any of the fees.
     
  7. CalGalTraveler

    CalGalTraveler TUG Member

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    1) ROFR.net should have what the real estate broker or closing firm included in the total price submitted to HGVC.

    2) What you actually paid after seller credits only matters between the buyer and seller. Our closing company included the MF for current year points, selling fees and other costs, so the price submitted for ROFR was significantly higher than what we actually paid after we received credits after the sale. These credits were structured into the deal upfront with the seller.

    Although it feels good to show you got a deal, putting #2 in the ROFR.net database will consistently bias the average to be too low and mis-represent what actually passed ROFR if these fees are not included.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
  8. escanoe

    escanoe TUG Member

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    Woodstone (Luxury, RCI Points) at Massanutten Resort
    Less than two weeks after this was submitted, the broker contacted me today with news it "passed" ROFR. So, I guess HGVC is not exercising it. Pretty sure maintenance fees were overestimated, so I think I will get a few hundred back out of escrow. This is my third eBay purchase and second with Legacy. I have taken a buyer beware approach, but so far [knocking on wood] I think I have had a pretty good run. I will add this to the ROFR sticky and ROFR.net .... but admittedly I still have some confusion on what exactly to report on ROFR where it is just one lump sum to report ... i think.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2018
    Hsahota1 likes this.
  9. Tamaradarann

    Tamaradarann TUG Review Crew: Veteran TUG Member

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    If the ROFR price is what it will cost HILTON to buy it back wouldn't it be just $809 + $1290 = 2099, the agreed price of the auction and the maintenance fee which must be paid to the Association of the resort. Why would HILTON have to pay itself the closing costs, transfer fee, activation fee, and convenience fee.
    It has its own closing agents, they do the transfer and activation themselves and the convenience fee is just for the privilege of using a credit card which is ridiculous.
     
    1Kflyerguy likes this.
  10. 1Kflyerguy

    1Kflyerguy TUG Review Crew: Rookie TUG Member

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    I agree, I am sure HGV wont use the brokers closing company, they will handles any ROFR transaction with their internal teams.
     
  11. CalGalTraveler

    CalGalTraveler TUG Member

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    So if they ROFR the broker is not compensated?
     
  12. dayooper

    dayooper TUG Member

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    That was my assumption, but since I’m new to all of this, I deferred to you all. I seem to remember a conversation a while ago that centered around brokers and why they pushed higher prices. I thought someone said they never wanted HGVC to ROFR the listings as they didn’t get the brokers fee fo it. Again, I could be completely wrong here.

    Another question. Are we sure HGVC has to pay the MF’s? Unless it’s specifically written into the purchase agreement, why would HGVC have to pay those? If the HOA is controlled by HGVC, wouldn’t they just forgive the the fees? Just thinking out loud here.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2018
  13. Tamaradarann

    Tamaradarann TUG Review Crew: Veteran TUG Member

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    I could be wrong but the seller pays the Broker. So if I sell you a timeshare for $3000, and the Broker gets 1/3 of the cost of the sale, then the Broker get $1000 from me. So if HGVC buys it using ROFR for the $3000 price, then I would still need to pay the Broker the $1000, however, your would not get the Timeshare.
     
  14. Tamaradarann

    Tamaradarann TUG Review Crew: Veteran TUG Member

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    If you use my example above, the Broker would get $1000 if they sell the timeshare to another person, or if HGVC uses ROFR to buy the timeshare back. As far as Brokers pushing higher prices, if the Broker sold the timeshare for $6000, at 1/3 commission they would get $2000.

    As far as the MF's if a person buys the timeshare they must pay the future maintenance. If HGVC buys the timeshare, they must pay the future maintenance. If not, then the association and all timeshare owners at that resort get screwed when a developer uses ROFR, and until the developer sells the timeshare again. I am emphasizing future maintenance, since past due maintenance should be paid by the seller. If not then the selling price of the sale actually needs to be raised by the amount of the past due maintenance, and the amount of the ROFR needs to be raised as well.
     
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  15. natarajanv

    natarajanv TUG Member

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    I found this ROFR section in my contract.
     

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  16. tombanjo

    tombanjo TUG Member

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    It would be simplest to just report the sales price with out fees, i.e. the offer price. Though the total cost to buyer (whether developer or buyer that submitted offer) may pay fees or other costs, since these can vary immensely depending on the deal. Try to list all the variables in the deal and rolled it up into the ROFR amount might end up with thousands of dollars in differences in offers that started out with the same accepted offer price.
     
  17. Tamaradarann

    Tamaradarann TUG Review Crew: Veteran TUG Member

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    So based on the ROFR Section in the contract, when ROFR is exercised the amount that the Developer must pay the seller and broker gets is listed separately and would be the amount of the ROFR. Escanoe's example to start the tread, has no broker fee since it is an eBay auction, so it would be $809. The Maintenance fee is not addressed in the ROFR section of the contract so I guess if it isn't listed it is not part of the contract and goes with whoever, owns the timeshare when it is due. It will be escanoe's in this case. Of course, escanoe will still have to pay for the Closing, Transfer, and Activation Fee; however, if it is HGVC those functions are part of their usual daily business so even if they list them as costs for accounting purposes they are a real wash. The Convenience Fee is another Joke for the Developer since they will just cut a check.

    A thought on HGVC not exercising ROFR on the EOY odd year sales. I wonder if the ROFR policy for EOY timeshares is different than Every Year Timeshares. With the exception of some Prime Locations such as NYC and some resorts in Honolulu, does HGVC really want to buy back EOY timeshares? EOY timeshares, and (I even heard of "Once every 3 year timeshares") were created to be able to lower the developer price to market to people who were blown away by the Every Year price and get them in the system and make a sale. They don't want them back. If they have a shortage of them to sell they can always create more by splitting their existing inventory.
     
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  18. CalGalTraveler

    CalGalTraveler TUG Member

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    If you paid into escrow above your net cost then got an escrow refund after the deal is complete, then list the gross cost because that is what was submitted to ROFR. This was to increase ROFR price: buyer and seller contractually negotiated the sale to structure this way.

    Another term that I have heard is for seller to cover the fees or include points, but if ROFR by HGVC, seller will not be obligated to cover any fees including MF for extra points.

    If you did not get an escrow refund then dont worry about it. Simply list the sales price without fees
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2018
  19. Panina

    Panina TUG Review Crew: Expert TUG Member

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    Would explain why some prices seem low, we are not seeing what the broker gets which can be high. I wonder if for companies that get paid excessive fees upfront to sell someone’s timeshare, if rofr occurs if the seller gets back their fees or the broker gets double.
     
  20. tk25

    tk25 TUG Member

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    Hilton will probably look at purchase agreement with varying degrees of scrutiny depending on how busy they are and experience of their staff at the time of review.

    Hilton and anyone else using ROFR for any other real estate predominantly/mainly uses the "contract sales purchase price". All the other fees etc. will show up on your closing statement and legally should not be part of ROFR.

    ll other fees excluding sales contract purchase price on closing statement don't factor in to ROFR.

    One common maneuver is to include current year maintenance fees in sales contract purchase price if points are still unused for that year. This will make purchase sales price look higher and thus has greater chance to pass ROFR. Another technique to avoid ROFR being exercised is to have seller pay closing costs but the contract sales purchase price is adjusted higher to compensate. This would also make ROFR being exercised less likely. This all depends on how closely Hilton scrutinizes the purchase agreement which can vary.
     
  21. vacationtime1

    vacationtime1 TUG Member

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    What all of this tells us is that all of our databases for ROFR activity are at least somewhat imprecise; every data point must be considered "fuzzy" due to what it may or may not include.

    Which is not critical because ROFR is exercised capriciously so we shouldn't expect precision on the other side either.

    But it reminds us that the super low price one may see in an ROFR database may be something other than what it appears to be and that we don't need to obsess about it when we have a "good enough" price.
     
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  22. CalGalTraveler

    CalGalTraveler TUG Member

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    This is correct. If you haven't done one of these maneuvers then the contract sales price is correct. If you have, then you need to adjust the ROFR price to include these figures.
     
  23. tk25

    tk25 TUG Member

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    My experience includes three secondary market purchases that were successful and my only unsuccessful offer was bought by Hilton with ROFR.

    The experienced real estate agent is the one that used the maneuver including current year maintenence fees in the sales contract price which passed ROFR on exact same type of unit at same property all within 30 days that ultimately passed ROFR even though actual total cost was less then the one I lost to ROFR.
     

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