Vistana, Westin & Sheraton Deedback program

[LannyPC]

I think this is good news for those of us who are aging and have difficulty traveling any more and/or don't want to burden our children/grandchildren with yearly fees.

While I understand your point, just remember that that is a myth perpetuated usually by these upfront fee exit companies: that an owner's kids will be stuck with the MFs. No one is forced to accept an unwanted timeshare.

 

[ocdb8r]

I am not a lawyer but creating a web page that offers deedbacks to owners and not following through on what is advertised constitutes false advertising and is an FCC violation. I am surprised that they would commit to something like this in writing without a bunch of fine print "exclusions" at the bottom e.g. "program excludes all Vistana properties!"

This is precisely the issue though - nowhere on the page do they offer deedbacks. They just offer help to "plan your exit" and then the second section is all about selling your timeshare via Vistana. It was ARDA who implied there was a deedback program, with details at that link.

 

[CPNY]

I was told yest

This is precisely the issue though - nowhere on the page do they offer deedbacks. They just offer help to "plan your exit" and then the second section is all about selling your timeshare via Vistana. It was ARDA who implied there was a deedback program, with details at that link.

I was told by Vistana sales yesterday that as of three months ago they started a buyback to get the weeks back to sell their Sheraton flex and Westin flex. I also think it’s to create inventory for the new dual program that will be launched some time soon.

 

[Ken555]

I was told yest


I was told by Vistana sales yesterday that as of three months ago they started a buyback to get the weeks back to sell their Sheraton flex and Westin flex. I also think it’s to create inventory for the new dual program that will be launched some time soon.

Do you believe everything they tell you?


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[CPNY]

Do you believe everything they tell you?


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Absolutely. I take their word as law!!! They wouldn’t lie

I’m simply stating the things they told me. Ppl have been speculating that the rofr MVC and VSE have been exercising lately it may be used as new inventory for a joint program booking. Who knows. I do have a number for their buyback/resale dept they said they opened a few months back. Could be a number to a closed down toys r us tho so Whatver

 

[dioxide45]

I can confirm that Marriott has not been conveying any Vistana weeks to the existing MVC Trust that they setup for the Destinations program.

 

[CPNY]

I can confirm that Marriott has not been conveying any Vistana weeks to the existing MVC Trust that they setup for the Destinations program.

But that would be for the current DP program correct? That doesn’t mean that they aren’t conveying Vistana weeks for their new Sheraton and Westin Flex programs or to be placed into a trust for a new joint program? I want to buy another resale t im worried about restrictions or changes to programs if they roll out another joint program

 

[CPNY]

I can confirm that Marriott has not been conveying any Vistana weeks to the existing MVC Trust that they setup for the Destinations program.

Can you confirm any new Westin or Sheraton resorts in the dang Caribbean?? Lol. 8 resorts between Mexico and HI sheesh lol

 

[dioxide45]

But that would be for the current DP program correct? That doesn’t mean that they aren’t conveying Vistana weeks for their new Sheraton and Westin Flex programs or to be placed into a trust for a new joint program? I want to buy another resale t im worried about restrictions or changes to programs if they roll out another joint program

No Vistana conveyances to the Marriott trust. They are actively acquiring Vistana weeks and conveying them to the Sheraton and Westin Flex trusts.

 

[sjsharkie]

No Vistana conveyances to the Marriott trust. They are actively acquiring Vistana weeks and conveying them to the Sheraton and Westin Flex trusts.

Why would Marriott convey Vistana properties to the DC trust and cannibalize their Flex programs that they are rolling out separately? To me, that makes no sense. (Did an announcement come out that they were going to do this? Maybe I missed it.)

IMHO, they are better off keeping programs separate and forcing owners that want access to both to buy-in to both. Maybe in the future they add affiliate access to DC owners, but that would likely come with an extra fee.

Ryan

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[dioxide45]

Why would Marriott convey Vistana properties to the DC trust and cannibalize their Flex programs that they are rolling out separately? To me, that makes no sense. (Did an announcement come out that they were going to do this? Maybe I missed it.)

IMHO, they are better off keeping programs separate and forcing owners that want access to both to buy-in to both. Maybe in the future they add affiliate access to DC owners, but that would likely come with an extra fee.

Ryan

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There was no announcement, just confirming that they weren't conveying to the DC trust and continuing to feed Flex. This is what I was expecting, but thought it was worth pointing out.

 

[sjsharkie]

There was no announcement, just confirming that they weren't conveying to the DC trust and continuing to feed Flex. This is what I was expecting, but thought it was worth pointing out.

I knew you were just confirming -- I quoted you more as a response to others that had posted previously around speculative combining of the programs (but I do appreciate the confirmation of trust additions or non-additions).

I don't see it happening anytime soon. I am worried that they may change the rules around mandatory properties at some point (i.e. does not transfer to new owner) -- but boy that would piss a lot of people off.

-ryan

 

[Ken555]

I am worried that they may change the rules around mandatory properties at some point (i.e. does not transfer to new owner) -- but boy that would piss a lot of people off.

Can they do that? I know they can kill or modify the program as a whole, but not sure they can modify ownership rights at existing mandatory properties.


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[dioxide45]

Can they do that? I know they can kill or modify the program as a whole, but not sure they can modify ownership rights at existing mandatory properties.


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Unless they completely kill VSN, I don't see how they can take away mandatory VSN access. It is written into the underlying CC&R documents for the condominium.

 

[Ken555]

Unless they completely kill VSN, I don't see how they can take away mandatory VSN access. It is written into the underlying CC&R documents for the condominium.

Exactly. That’s why I’m curious why anyone is concerned that capability won’t transfer to new owners.


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[sjsharkie]

Can they do that? I know they can kill or modify the program as a whole, but not sure they can modify ownership rights at existing mandatory properties.


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I think they can. The club rules say that they can be changed at any time, and I am 51% sure that the definitions of mandatory and voluntary can be changed at any time.

As an aside, they used to allow fee free guest additions to reservations, and they now charge for it -- that was a club rule. I think anything to do with SVN can be changed with board approval.

Now, that would create a revolt I am sure amongst owners, so whether they want to do it or not is a separate question. (Personally, I would be screwed because I own 6 SVV intervals that would be near worthless when I try to sell. At least my WKV intervals would hold some of their value due to Spring Training.)

-ryan

 

[sjsharkie]

Unless they completely kill VSN, I don't see how they can take away mandatory VSN access. It is written into the underlying CC&R documents for the condominium.

If it is, then I stand corrected. I thought the club rules were separate from the incorporation documents.

-ryan

 

[dioxide45]

IMHO, they are better off keeping programs separate and forcing owners that want access to both to buy-in to both. Maybe in the future they add affiliate access to DC owners, but that would likely come with an extra fee.

I think for the long term prospect of the combined company and the overall program, they are better to try to integrate all of the properties in to a single DC program. It would create one large homogenous program that is much easier to administer.

However, the more I think about it overall, I think they are more likely to create a second overlay program where they give people the ability to trade between the two systems at a time frame inside of the current 8 months that StarOption owners have. Perhaps at six months.

• This would protect the 13/12 month weeks ownership bookings for Marriott weeks.
• It would protect the 12-8 month home resort priority for Vistana owners.
• It would protect the 10 month single night booking window for DC owners.
• It would protect for a two month period, StarOption availability.

All the leftovers at 6 months out could then be made available for a combined program. How one opts in to that program is likely to cost a bundle of money. Given that the Marriott ownership base is much larger, I think they will want to monetize them somehow. Giving such a combined program away to 65% of your owners for free won't be a big money maker. So I suspect some type of buy in for Marriott and Vistana owners. Perhaps you need to own Flex or DC trust points to have access and perhaps only those points will be able to book across all systems. No legacy DC points or StarOptions can be used to book this. This may even include Hyatt and perhaps HPP can have access.

All speculation...

 

[dioxide45]

I think they can. The club rules say that they can be changed at any time, and I am 51% sure that the definitions of mandatory and voluntary can be changed at any time.

As an aside, they used to allow fee free guest additions to reservations, and they now charge for it -- that was a club rule. I think anything to do with SVN can be changed with board approval.

Now, that would create a revolt I am sure amongst owners, so whether they want to do it or not is a separate question. (Personally, I would be screwed because I own 6 SVV intervals that would be near worthless when I try to sell. At least my WKV intervals would hold some of their value due to Spring Training.)

-ryan

They can't really change the definition of voluntary or mandatory. Either you are in the club or you are not. The difference with mandatory is that the club rules are written in to the condo CC&Rs. The definition of voluntary is simply that you can opt out of the club and that they don't allow people who buy resale at those resorts that don't have the club rules written in to the CC&Rs to voluntarily join the club.

If they change the club rules, they impact all developer purchasers as well as those that own mandatory resale.

 

[sjsharkie]

They can't really change the definition of voluntary or mandatory. Either you are in the club or you are not. The difference with mandatory is that the club rules are written in to the condo CC&Rs. The definition of voluntary is simply that you can opt out of the club and that they don't allow people who buy resale at those resorts that don't have the club rules written in to the CC&Rs to voluntarily join the club.

If they change the club rules, they impact all developer purchasers as well as those that own mandatory resale.

Not trying to start an argument here -- I researched this when I bought the 6 intervals in SVV. There is a club affiliation agreement that is referenced, but that can be changed at any time by the club operator. There was no mention of mandatory or voluntary at least in the SVV documents that I checked. I'll try to dig it up over the weekend, but it has been so long since I purchased, not sure where I stored them. I'm sure in the agreement, that there are specification of mandatory or voluntary, but the CC&Rs are very careful to reference the affiliation agreement and stress that the club operator can change the rules at any time.

I think where we disagree is that I believe the club rules are referenced, but they are not actually written into the CC&Rs themselves. That gives the club ability to change rules across all properties without having to re-record amendments and get board approval every single time there is a change.

Could this have changed? Yes, I didn't check every single amendment to the CC&Rs so possible but I doubt it (hence my 51% guess).

Yes, if they change club rules, they change it for everyone.

-ryan

 

[dioxide45]

I think where we disagree is that I believe the club rules are referenced, but they are not actually written into the CC&Rs themselves. That gives the club ability to change rules across all properties without having to re-record amendments and get board approval every single time there is a change.

Here is a link to the SVV Bella CC&Rs as recorded with the Orange County Comptroller. The Starwood Vacation Club Resort Affiliation Agreement starts on page 69. So they are indeed written in to the CC&Rs.

http://or.occompt.com/recorder/eagl...44.pdf?id=DOCC15672844.A0&parent=DOCC15672844

They still have the ability to change the rules across all resorts, but it impacts anyone in the club, developer or mandatory resale.

 

[sjsharkie]

Here is a link to the SVV Bella CC&Rs as recorded with the Orange County Comptroller. The Starwood Vacation Club Resort Affiliation Agreement starts on page 69. So they are indeed written in to the CC&Rs.

http://or.occompt.com/recorder/eagl...44.pdf?id=DOCC15672844.A0&parent=DOCC15672844

They still have the ability to change the rules across all resorts, but it impacts anyone in the club, developer or mandatory resale.

Yes -- see section 5, specifically 5.2 and 5.4 of the affiliate agreement. They can change any rules at any time which I take to include the definition of mandatory and voluntary upon resale -- per another paragraph, all members are forced to record amendments based on such changes as required by law. The only thing they can't change in 5.4 is the home resort period and club priority period.

There is nothing in the affiliate agreement that I see defining the terms "mandatory" or "voluntary". Full disclosure, I didn't read the whole thing this time around so maybe it is located somewhere else in the doc.

That's the way I read it anyway. This is how they can make point changes and other things without forcing amendments to rules every single time.

-ryan

 

[dioxide45]

They can change any rules at any time which I take to include the definition of mandatory and voluntary upon resale -- per another paragraph, all members are forced to record amendments based on such changes as required by law. The only thing they can't change in 5.4 is the home resort period and club priority period.

The very definition of mandatory and voluntary is the presence of that agreement in the CC&Rs. There is no real definition in writing, my understanding is that they are internal terms to Vistana. Mandatory means that if you own at that resort, you must be a member of VSN. Voluntary means you can opt in or out of the club and with that Vistana can opt you out based on certain terms. Those terms are currently if you buy resale, you are opted out.

If they change the club rules, then the terms in that CC&R change with it. They can change what the benefits of VSN are and point values, but if they do that it impacts that agreement in the CC&Rs along with it. All mandatory resorts have something in common and it is that agreement in the underlying documents. If Vistana could get rid of mandatory resale, they would have done it long ago. The problem is that they can't, because changing the CC&Rs would require a supermajority vote of the ownership.

 

[sjsharkie]

The very definition of mandatory and voluntary is the presence of that agreement in the CC&Rs. There is no real definition in writing, my understanding is that they are internal terms to Vistana. Mandatory means that if you own at that resort, you must be a member of VSN. Voluntary means you can opt in or out of the club and with that Vistana can opt you out based on certain terms. Those terms are currently if you buy resale, you are opted out.

If they change the club rules, then the terms in that CC&R change with it. They can change what the benefits of VSN are and point values, but if they do that it impacts that agreement in the CC&Rs along with it. All mandatory resorts have something in common and it is that agreement in the underlying documents. If Vistana could get rid of mandatory resale, they would have done it long ago. The problem is that they can't, because changing the CC&Rs would require a supermajority vote of the ownership.

We'll agree to disagree but I respect your opinion. My reading of the agreement says that the Club Operator can change the rules at any time bar a few exceptions, and mandate the affliliates to record such changes if required by law. The exception do not state anywhere that mandatory/voluntary state are part of those exceptions.

I do agree with you that if they could get rid of it, they would have done it a long time ago. There are two problems for them:

1. As you pointed out, the rules apply to everyone including developer purchased mandatory intervals. They would piss off their best customers and likely dissuade them from purchasing anything else at full boat.
2. They'd open themselves up to some litigation exposure. I'm sure many salespeople stated that mandatory intervals could be resold for life as mandatory, and even if they win, they still lose in litigation costs and what not.

-ryan

 

[TUGBrian]

a quick update on this after a very enlightening phone call this afternoon (ill wait to announce details publicly until I get the approval)....but I am hoping to provide some very good news relating to this program and especially the parties that called and were told they could not give their ownerships back.