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Use to work in sales at Wyndham

wjappraise

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I read this as an accusation, specifically Wyndham was manipulating mf to provide them with greater profit than they would have had if they had played it straight

The manager is required by law to manage the club to the benefit of the club members. I’m no lawyer, but I’m pretty sure to do otherwise is not legal


That’s the context as I read it: CWA maintenance fees. And you were pretty clear, that if mf is over $5 Wyndham must be managing this thing to “Fuel their jets” I dont think they are doing that and If they were I think it would be illegal. So to my way of thinking you have accuses Wyndham of doing something illegal

Ron, maybe I am oversimplifying it, but I see it that maintenance fees do include several rather vague lines that are pure profit and likely used to "fuel the jets" of the corporate players and over-compensated board members. Such things as "Management Fees", "Association Fees", "General & Administrative", "Operating Capital", "Other Expenses", and others are certainly ones that are legally siphoning monies to Wyndham. Just looking at one of recent association fee breakdowns, those line items combined for about 25% of the stated expenses. And they represent more than total maintenance costs, more than guest services, more than housekeeping, more than all utilities combined, and more that replacement reserves. All in all . . . a lot of something, maybe it is jet fuel.

It does seem more gamesmanship than real world accounting that CWA started with MFs markedly lower than many popular resorts, but is now higher than most, with the exception of the Pompano Beach resorts.
 

silentg

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She now has two weeks instead of one week so I would guess the maintenance fees doubled or close to it. Did she want two weeks or to get out of owing at the resort in Pompano because of the hurricane? How much did it cost her to buy more points to have enough for two weeks? I'm guessing at least $12-$18k and maybe even more than that. One of the papers she signed stated what the new maintenance fees would be. Does she have a husband or did she go the update by herself?

We met at the get together in January and if I remember correctly you are a few years younger than I am. That would likely make your aunt mid to later 70's or older? The information I read online about elder abuse said that 60 and over is considered elderly. Yeah that was a slap in the face, lol. If she feels she ended up with something she didn't want because the salesperson fast talked her it might be worth a phone call to Wyndham owner care and their legal department with both of you on the line to discuss this.
Yes my aunt is in her early 80’s very independent .She feels like she got a bad deal, but other than complain to me, I don’t know what she will do. She is using her weeks to exchange within Wyndham.
She still likes to go to Pompano, but she does short stays there.
My family asks for advice from me but then they do what they want. They all think we own too many timeshares. But we use them all and don’t have any that have extremely high fees.
I’m thinking that she might contact Wyndham and ask them to take back the weeks.
I don’t know what she paid or what the deal was to get her to give up her Pompano one. She lives in Florida so not because of hurricanes. Didn’t make sense to me, since she doesn’t like Kissimmee or Orlando area.
Thanks for the advice Jan. I don’t know that much about Wyndham. Just know I don’t want anymore timeshares.
Silentg
 

Lisa P

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We just signed a WCA deal for 126k annual points at $145/1000 points for under 20k all in. MFs are around 800/year. Got some bonus points and VIP Silver through 2020 and a couple RCI free weeks thrown in. Good deal or should we rescind based upon your experience as a former WCA sales rep?
I would never tell anyone to rescind a purchase. 1) Its unethical 2) It could be construed as Tortuous Interference and 3) As long as you feel it was a good deal, then go for it.
I suspect what he meant was that while talking to the customer he would not advise them to rescind, and that doing so while representing Wyndham would not be on the up and up when he was being paid by Wyndham to sell product.
Surely he didn’t mean the act of rescinding itself is somehow unethical.
He didn’t say it would be unethical to rescind. What he said is that it would be unethical to advise someone to rescind and advising someone to rescind could be “Tortuous Interference"
And I agree...
I agree as it relates to an ex-employee...
:shrug: The OP did not seek an opportunity to drive away business from his past employer. He was asked for an opinion based on his knowledge of the system and sales industry. :ponder: I see your point and it's good to grant the benefit over the doubt.... that posted reply just didn't (and honestly still doesn't) read that way to me.
To the OP, would you purchase a timeshare in a 90 minutes presentation while on vacation?
:D :p
 

ronparise

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Ron, maybe I am oversimplifying it, but I see it that maintenance fees do include several rather vague lines that are pure profit and likely used to "fuel the jets" of the corporate players and over-compensated board members. Such things as "Management Fees", "Association Fees", "General & Administrative", "Operating Capital", "Other Expenses", and others are certainly ones that are legally siphoning monies to Wyndham. Just looking at one of recent association fee breakdowns, those line items combined for about 25% of the stated expenses. And they represent more than total maintenance costs, more than guest services, more than housekeeping, more than all utilities combined, and more that replacement reserves. All in all . . . a lot of something, maybe it is jet fuel.

It does seem more gamesmanship than real world accounting that CWA started with MFs markedly lower than many popular resorts, but is now higher than most, with the exception of the Pompano Beach resorts.
That’s not what we were talking about

Understand that CWA is comprised of a collection of deeds from most all the resorts and the CWA mf is essentially a weighted average of all those deeds. Yes there are management fees assessed at multiple levels 1) every resort is managed 2) the club (CWA) is managed and 3) CWA is part of Club Wyndham plus and Club Wyndham plus is managed
And every owner of a CWA contract pays all those fees

But none of that is new, all those management fees have been part of CWA from the beginning


I was responding to just two things one was the former salesman’s claim that “anything over $5 was fueling wyndhams jets” or some such thing

I don’t think that’s true.

And two is the general belief that CWA fees have been higher than average since the beginning because CWA was the dumping ground for all the junk that couldn’t be sold.

Second thing first. CWA fees weren’t higher than average since the beginning I know that because I owned a lot of deeds from all over the system and I believe my average mf represented pretty much the average across the system. And CWA was less

And to my first point

I think most of the recent increase is due to increases at the individual resorts that are in CWA and due to more high mf deeds than low mf deeds being added recently.

And a personal note. When I was selling deeds back to Wyndham they usually wouldn’t buy CWA and they would never buy converted weeks. But when they took out all the mega renters they took everything including the fixed fixed weeks (converted and unconverted) and speaking only for myself, a lot of what they got from me was high mf stuff)

So I’m not saying wyndham dosent overcharge us. What I’m saying is the increased mf we have seen recently in CWA is not due to increased management fees. Looking at the big picture management fees are small potatoes.

At least that’s my opinion and it’s based on experience owning this stuff, not selling it
 

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Quick question. If I haven’t signed my actual contract is there anything I need to worry about in terms of rescinding? I did fill out several applications etc but they are eager to get me in to sign the contract. I assume not, but wanted to make sure my bases are covered.
 

Cyrus24

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Did you actually meet with the QC person? This person brings all the papers in and records the conversation as you do final signatures. Since you are questioning what you actually filled out, you may need to go back to the sales office and retrieve the forms/applications that you completed.
 

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Did you actually meet with the QC person? This person brings all the papers in and records the conversation as you do final signatures. Since you are questioning what you actually filled out, you may need to go back to the sales office and retrieve the forms/applications that you completed.
No, we never met in the “quiet room” and recorded conversations. We only sat at salespersons table and filled out applications.
 

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You are probably not contractually obligated to anything, then. If you do go back, be firm , you don't want to buy on this trip. Do try to retrieve the applications that you filled out. Be thankful that the printer was down, you may have saved yourself a LOT of aggravation and stress. And, have this web page on your phone just in case you need a quick perspective on something that they say. There are many TUGGERS willing to help you!!!!
 

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You are probably not contractually obligated to anything, then. If you do go back, be firm , you don't want to buy on this trip. Do try to retrieve the applications that you filled out. Be thankful that the printer was down, you may have saved yourself a LOT of aggravation and stress. And, have this web page on your phone just in case you need a quick perspective on something that they say. There are many TUGGERS willing to help you!!!!

Thanks for talking me down from the ledge everyone. Is there a thread or link that explains how to go about safely buying from the resale market?
 

Cyrus24

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Is there a thread or link that explains how to go about safely buying from the resale market?
That's a big request, not sure that it's in one simple post. Do look at the link I shared on your other post as it addresses a lot of topics about buying from developer versus resale, VIP, PICs, etc. For now, enjoy your time in Vegas. When you get home just start reading the various posts, you will learn a lot about the various aspects of ownership.

Glad you are off the ledge. :)
 

wjappraise

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I was responding to just two things one was the former salesman’s claim that “anything over $5 was fueling wyndhams jets” or some such thing

I don’t think that’s true.

And two is the general belief that CWA fees have been higher than average since the beginning because CWA was the dumping ground for all the junk that couldn’t be sold.

Second thing first. CWA fees weren’t higher than average since the beginning I know that because I owned a lot of deeds from all over the system and I believe my average mf represented pretty much the average across the system. And CWA was less

And to my first point

I think most of the recent increase is due to increases at the individual resorts that are in CWA and due to more high mf deeds than low mf deeds being added recently.

And a personal note. When I was selling deeds back to Wyndham they usually wouldn’t buy CWA and they would never buy converted weeks. But when they took out all the mega renters they took everything including the fixed fixed weeks (converted and unconverted) and speaking only for myself, a lot of what they got from me was high mf stuff)

So I’m not saying wyndham dosent overcharge us. What I’m saying is the increased mf we have seen recently in CWA is not due to increased management fees. Looking at the big picture management fees are small potatoes.

At least that’s my opinion and it’s based on experience owning this stuff, not selling it

Thanks, Ron.

I agree CWA fees were very competitive at first. Not sure that liquidating even some big players (weren't there only about 100 of us in the suspended category) would be enough to explain the LARGE (not shouting, just highlighting) increase in MFs for the economy of scale that CWA would represent. I am wondering if it started low due to some subsidies or other incentives. Either way, the prices now are unreasonable when compared to other resorts.

I also think the prior salesman was speaking with some degree of "tongue in cheek," noting that Wyndham does profit quite nicely from our MFs, without charging fraud against Wyndham (especially given his reluctance to tell someone to rescind a new contract purchase). Those management fees and the like are quite bloated, especially when you factor in that the program fees are not included in those calculations.

Of course, those bloated fees are across the board for Wyndham properties, not just CWA.

Good to have you back on the blog with regularity.
 

harveyhaddixfan

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Of course, those bloated fees are across the board for Wyndham properties, not just CWA.

It’s not just Wyndham either. My resort in NC was previously independent, bought by Gold Key out of Virginia Beach and later sold to Diamond. Since Diamond took over, the management fee went from about $250k to $569k this year. They also added a line item called “indirect corporate costs” (previously called corporate overhead allocation) for another $581k. That’s an extra $900k for 4386 intervals or about $205 a week. The total revenue is listed as $6.4 million. It’s ridiculous how DRI was able to “buy” the resort and now can call all the shots since they picked up a few thousand intervals with the purchase and have taken back many more.
 

ronparise

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Thanks for talking me down from the ledge everyone. Is there a thread or link that explains how to go about safely buying from the resale market?

In 2010 I went to bonnet creek as the guest of an owner, I thought. In fact I was her ticket to a free weekend. We both had to attend a sales presentation

My wife really liked the place (bonnet creek)and we signed on we quickly realized that the $12000 we committed to bought nearly nothing and we rescinded

But as I said we really liked the resort. So I set out to find the secondary market. I found it on eBay. My first purchase was 3 converted fixed weeks totaling 375000 points. For $1 plus about $250 closing costs per contract and about $2000 annual maintenance fees

Since then I have purchased well over 200 contracts on the secondary market and sold them all


I mention all this simply to establish credibility. I’m trying to make the point that I could write the book on buying Wyndham contracts on the aecondary market

And here it is:

1) determine your needs
2) go to ebay.com
3) bid
4) pay
5) wait for the deal to settle
6) repeat as often as necessary to reach your goal

And this is the hard part; before you buy, know the product and know your seller

I didn’t have the benefit of those “rules” before I bought. I knew nothing. I hadn’t even found tug before my first purchase. But it all worked out just fine. This isn’t rocket science
 

HitchHiker71

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In 2010 I went to bonnet creek as the guest of an owner, I thought. In fact I was her ticket to a free weekend. We both had to attend a sales presentation

My wife really liked the place (bonnet creek)and we signed on we quickly realized that the $12000 we committed to bought nearly nothing and we rescinded

But as I said we really liked the resort. So I set out to find the secondary market. I found it on eBay. My first purchase was 3 converted fixed weeks totaling 375000 points. For $1 plus about $250 closing costs per contract and about $2000 annual maintenance fees

Since then I have purchased well over 200 contracts on the secondary market and sold them all


I mention all this simply to establish credibility. I’m trying to make the point that I could write the book on buying Wyndham contracts on the aecondary market

And here it is:

1) determine your needs
2) go to ebay.com
3) bid
4) pay
5) wait for the deal to settle
6) repeat as often as necessary to reach your goal

And this is the hard part; before you buy, know the product and know your seller

I didn’t have the benefit of those “rules” before I bought. I knew nothing. I hadn’t even found tug before my first purchase. But it all worked out just fine. This isn’t rocket science

Curious about the background on why anyone would engage in buying and selling such a large number of contracts? Over what period of time did you perform these activities? I’m sure there are very good reasons but as a relative TS newbie I’m trying to understand the business case. I also saw reference to “large renters” and how the changes to the VIP programs and the mass suspensions were aimed at these large TS owners. Were people actually trying to buy up large blocks of contracts to somehow corner the TS market and then rent out their TS’s as some kind of business model? Did this actually work? It sounds as if a small subset of large TS owners were actually able to turn TS ownership into some kind of viable business model?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Adventureisoutthere

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In 2010 I went to bonnet creek as the guest of an owner, I thought. In fact I was her ticket to a free weekend. We both had to attend a sales presentation

My wife really liked the place (bonnet creek)and we signed on we quickly realized that the $12000 we committed to bought nearly nothing and we rescinded

But as I said we really liked the resort. So I set out to find the secondary market. I found it on eBay. My first purchase was 3 converted fixed weeks totaling 375000 points. For $1 plus about $250 closing costs per contract and about $2000 annual maintenance fees

Since then I have purchased well over 200 contracts on the secondary market and sold them all


I mention all this simply to establish credibility. I’m trying to make the point that I could write the book on buying Wyndham contracts on the aecondary market

And here it is:

1) determine your needs
2) go to ebay.com
3) bid
4) pay
5) wait for the deal to settle
6) repeat as often as necessary to reach your goal

And this is the hard part; before you buy, know the product and know your seller

I didn’t have the benefit of those “rules” before I bought. I knew nothing. I hadn’t even found tug before my first purchase. But it all worked out just fine. This isn’t rocket science

How do we get to know a seller on eBay? I have a list of questions I ask before bidding, but I haven’t received great responses to my questions which deters my bid.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

ronparise

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Curious about the background on why anyone would engage in buying and selling such a large number of contracts? Over what period of time did you perform these activities? I’m sure there are very good reasons but as a relative TS newbie I’m trying to understand the business case. I also saw reference to “large renters” and how the changes to the VIP programs and the mass suspensions were aimed at these large TS owners. Were people actually trying to buy up large blocks of contracts to somehow corner the TS market and then rent out their TS’s as some kind of business model? Did this actually work? It sounds as if a small subset of large TS owners were actually able to turn TS ownership into some kind of viable business model?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My story is well known here on TUG. From 2010 -2016 I grew from 325000 points That I won on ebay with a $1 bid to over 30 million I started with the goal of doing enough rentals each year so that the rental income would pay all my maintenance fees with enough points left over for a week or so for me..

That worked and I set a new goal to make $2000 a month profit.. That worked and I kept growing.

You ask about the business case> I never claimed to have a business... I had a hustle and I always knew that it wouldnt last forever

What I (and others) did cant be done anymore because Wyndham closed the loopholes we used to make cheap VIP accounts, to get discounts on reservations made 10-13 months in advance, and to use 3 years of points while paying less than a years mf.
 

Jan M.

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Curious about the background on why anyone would engage in buying and selling such a large number of contracts? Over what period of time did you perform these activities? I’m sure there are very good reasons but as a relative TS newbie I’m trying to understand the business case. I also saw reference to “large renters” and how the changes to the VIP programs and the mass suspensions were aimed at these large TS owners. Were people actually trying to buy up large blocks of contracts to somehow corner the TS market and then rent out their TS’s as some kind of business model? Did this actually work? It sounds as if a small subset of large TS owners were actually able to turn TS ownership into some kind of viable business model?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Pretty much none of what Ron did is relevant to you. What is relevant is his experience in buying and the criteria he used in making his decisions about what he bought. You would have to go back to threads starting after August 2016 to understand his history. If you have the time it is interesting reading. Ron bought, sold, bought more and sold more to the tune of something like 30 million points a year for several years. He ended up in negotiations for a settlement with Wyndham which resulted in him no longer being a Wyndham owner. He and others doing the same thing resulted in Wyndham making changes to prevent what they had done from happening in the future.

To save you a great deal of time reading back through all those threads and the posts on them here is a quick summation. For the most part Ron business plan was to buy a large volume of points, some he didn't care quite as much about the price as the location and some the cheap price what was he was looking for. He had a great rental business going at the New Orleans properties.The people who had profitable rental businesses were referred to as megarenters. Ron stripped the deeds and contracts he bought of three years points only paying maintenance fees for the current year, no longer possible btw, used some points to make his rental reservations and had point managers who paid him for the huge amounts of points he wasn't using. The points managers then made reservations with those points and rented stays to make their money. After a second year of credit pooling the next available year's points, using some of them for them his own rentals and getting paid by the point managers for the rest of them, he then sold off the stripped deeds and contracts that had no points in them for the next several years. Wyndham did away with the credit pool and took back those stripped contracts and deeds. Not sure if any of those point manager survived the purge either.

Between the new Wyndham website in May, 2017 with the changes it brought and the changes to the VIP benefits in April, 2017 most of us have been impacted to some degree and most negatively. Those changes made it much harder for many owners who did quite a bit of renting to get the reservations they were used to getting and make the money they once did. When the new website was launched it was because the Wyndham powers that be didn't listen to their IT people, hit the panic button and forced the roll out of the new website prematurely. The result was quite honestly a p.o.s. website that they have been working hard to fix and still needs work.
 
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T-Dot-Traveller

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- "and that's it in a nutshell "

as one of my grandmother's friends would say after a 10 minute complicated story .

*******
Actually - that is a very good summary of well over 1000 posts in the August 2016 start date- " Account Suspended .... thread .
- which I did read regularly through it's many twists & turns .

Thank you Jan
 

HitchHiker71

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- "and that's it in a nutshell "

as one of my grandmother's friends would say after a 10 minute complicated story .

*******
Actually - that is a very good summary of well over 1000 posts in the August 2016 start date- " Account Suspended .... thread .
- which I did read regularly through it's many twists & turns .

Thank you Jan

Yes thanks very much for the summation! Interesting information to say the least.


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I have several friends and such that still work at Wyndham, some sales reps, some directors of sales and some site and area VP's. I cannot bad mouth Wyndham, as 1) I have no reason too 2) I have respect for my colleagues that still work there..

Ron that is a very interesting story. We used to sell ALOT of alternate use years at my site. Anyone with 1,000,000 points or more, it was an easy sell, because it allowed to perpetual points rolling without RCI and the PCP. Wyndham also closed that loophole. I had to call ALL of my owners that I sold that to and tell them it was not going to work anymore. So if anyone is wondering why their use years all went to the same time, its because of that "Glitch" in the system.

But its like everything else. There are reasons certain programs are rolled out. The product developers at Wyndham are brilliant people. They are very nice and such as well. They spend their time brainstorming on whats next.

Its like the "In-Unit" Visits where the sales person came to your room, then that didnt work anymore they went to " Owner Workshops" so whats next? Who knows, but they dont last forever. Something new will come.. I just hope for its the benefits of the owners. Wyndhams biggest business issue is brow beating their owners OVER and OVER and OVER. It looks like they have taken some good steps recently with ovations and the old Pathways program.
 
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Hi
Did you have a base salary when you worked for Wyndham?
It was a draw, enough to cover benefits, and when you had commission that draw was taken back.
 
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To the OP, would you purchase a timeshare in a 90 minutes presentation while on vacation?

Depends.. Thats a loaded question on this forum hahahaha. and a loaded questions because I have been in the industry for a decade.

Knowing everything I know... No

But I can see why millions do it every year... We called it the "Ether" Thats why Orlando, Hawaii, and Las Vegas are the top timeshare productions sites in the world. Your in Hawaii with your wife, everythings beautiful, you want to come back every year, because its an emotional buy at that point.

Vegas- Money flows so freely in Vegas, I truly believe the science behind Vegas Sales is the mindset MOST people have in Vegas, because of all the Gambling, expensive stuff flashing all around. They want to feel apart of that "flashy entourage"

Orlando- 1 word- Disney. It sells it self.
 

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National Harbor Resale (689k)
But I can see why millions do it every year... We called it the "Ether" Thats why Orlando, Hawaii, and Las Vegas are the top timeshare productions sites in the world. Your in Hawaii with your wife, everythings beautiful, you want to come back every year, because its an emotional buy at that point.

I think you just hit on the crux of the problem with timeshare sales tactics especially, and to a lesser extent on any sales model that is designed to manipulate people to encourage emotional vs factual decision making.

To me, ANY sales model that encourages anyone to make major life decisions that have a major financial impact within a period of hours is by definition designed to intentionally manipulate people. My wife fell for it last week and we ended up rescinding. The fact that Wyndham intentionally requires both husband and wife (or SO) is by design NOT because they necessarily want both decision makers - it’s really because it doubles their chances of a sale if one of the two people involved let’s their emotions get the best of them. We all want to please our spouses and therefore we are less likely to resist our spouse in the moment. This approach, at its core, is fundamentally dishonest in my view.

Thankfully, the internet and social media have largely become the great equalizers in minimizing and preventing these types of sales practices from proliferating further. Car sales tactics the old fashioned way are a dying breed thanks to the power of technology. I for one will celebrate the day when the aggressive and manipulative sales practices used by timeshare companies becomes a thing of the past. We are now armed with tons of information literally at our fingertips to help us avoid making impulsive decisions.

While I’m no sales person, I’m trained and certified in the pragmatic market framework and therefore understand how to design and implement sales models using various buyer and seller personas. When I was sitting with our 19 year old sales associate who was brand new at Wyndham, I coached her on all of this while we were waiting for her boss. On how her role was to act as an advocate for the customer and that she intentionally did not handle any of the financials and negotiations because that’s a different persona by design. Her persona was to gain the trust of the customer and build a relationship to attempt to get customers to let their guard down. It’s all very intentional and very much by design how they sell. It’s very systematic. That much I know for certain.




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Marriott Mtn Valley Breckenridge, Grand Crown Resort RCI Points
Sales are always going to be based on emotion and logic.. Theres nothing wrong with selling emotions. I know this site is particularly negative when it comes to timeshare sells by the resort. But not all sales that happen are bad things.

Front line sales - new owner acquisitions are done with emotion and logic.

Inhouse sales are mostly done on logic. Just like moving PR to PR by buying 105k points. If you could drop your maint 100+ a month and have more PR points, why would you not? The maint is what is long term. Any position to reduce that cost should be beneficial....
 
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