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Use to work in sales at Wyndham

wjappraise

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You say this as if spending another chunk of money ($10K? $15K? more?) on developer points, just to reduce maintenance fees is a generally GOOD idea. :doh: How many years to break even on that pressure cooker decision? There's no assurance that maintenance fees will remain lower over those years or the buyer will ever break even. This reasoning is, IMO, definitely from a Sales perspective, not from an Owner's perspective.

I’m just piggybacking on what Jan stated. If a PR owner of 2,000,000 points can switch resorts and save $2.00 per thousand points per year, that’s $4,000 savings per year. Wouldn’t take too many years to recoup purchase price.
 
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Through Ovations they have added a lot of inventory in the last 5 years. It isn't all junk and leftovers like it was when it originally started.

Like I said, its been a while hahaha
 
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All of our maintenance fees have always been lower and drastically lower than CWA. The increases to CWA have always been higher than where we own. Someone who owned the same number of points we do but in CWA would be spending about $2400 a year more in maintenance fees. So it would take less than 5 years to recover that $10k. For some people, especially those planning on being in Wyndham for years to come, that would be a smart move. We've owned for 17 years so I tend to take the long view and use our personal experience with maintenance fees. Btw we've never had a special assessment at any of the resorts we've owned at in all those years either. This isn't a one size fits all situation. For some people it would be a smart move and for others wouldn't make any sense at all.

Based on what we've been hearing from OP it sure seems like anyone wanting to change what they have or purchase more developer points would be wise to use Wyndham corporate telesales and not darken the door of a sales center. Having the calls recorded and all documents emailed for you to look over and ask questions here on TUG or call back to ask prior to signing instead of being coerced to sign so you can escape the lying sales people seems like the only way to go.

I agree 100% with your first comment. 2nd, the best decision is to KNOW when you go in, you dont have to sign anything. Coerced or NOT. They dont physically grab your hand and make you sign. THE BEST defense is a good Offense. Take a recorder and tell the rep you are going to record everything they are going to say, and you want copies of EVERY document they present to you. More than likely 99% will say have a good day. Me, personally, I wouldnt care if you recorded or not, I WELCOMED it, because some of these Buyers are ALSO liars. The complaint I had was from a couple who bought 500,000 points in December 11'. They saw me in December 12', I told them they had a price freeze for 1 year and they could get another 500k points to be platinum at the same price they paid in 11'. Which is 100% accurate. They complained and said they did not know they were buying anything, yet she filled out Bill Me Later and used her PERSONAL CC for a 19k down payment in which she SIGNED the receipt for. So some of the stories you hear are buyers who ARE IN FACT liars. NOW the majority of the sales people will say whatever is needed to get the deal.
 
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I’m just piggybacking on what Jan stated. If a PR owner of 2,000,000 points can switch resorts and save $2.00 per thousand points per year, that’s $4,000 savings per year. Wouldn’t take too many years to recoup purchase price.

It was a great sale and a real sale. When you can have PR (Which you have spend 150k+ on). Why not spend the extra 15k-20k and save 1000-2000 a year in maint. It was a EASY sale because it was truthful and made sense.
 

ronparise

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Like I said, its been a while hahaha

It wasn’t just junk and left overs in the beginning. In the beginning they actively managed the trust to keep mf at a certain level. Put simply, for every high mf contract they got they had to get a low mf contract to offset it

I attended two or three of the annual meetingss and talked to the board about this. The may have been lying but the results spoke for themselves. CWA mf was in the early years below average
 

ronparise

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I agree 100% with your first comment. 2nd, the best decision is to KNOW when you go in, you dont have to sign anything. Coerced or NOT. They dont physically grab your hand and make you sign. THE BEST defense is a good Offense. Take a recorder and tell the rep you are going to record everything they are going to say, and you want copies of EVERY document they present to you. More than likely 99% will say have a good day. Me, personally, I wouldnt care if you recorded or not, I WELCOMED it, because some of these Buyers are ALSO liars. The complaint I had was from a couple who bought 500,000 points in December 11'. They saw me in December 12', I told them they had a price freeze for 1 year and they could get another 500k points to be platinum at the same price they paid in 11'. Which is 100% accurate. They complained and said they did not know they were buying anything, yet she filled out Bill Me Later and used her PERSONAL CC for a 19k down payment in which she SIGNED the receipt for. So some of the stories you hear are buyers who ARE IN FACT liars. NOW the majority of the sales people will say whatever is needed to get the deal.

The best defense is to know the product as well as they do, or better
 
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It wasn’t just junk and left overs in the beginning. In the beginning they actively managed the trust to keep mf at a certain level. Put simply, for every high mf contract they got they had to get a low mf contract to offset it

I attended two or three of the annual meetingss and talked to the board about this. The may have been lying but the results spoke for themselves. CWA mf was in the early years below average

Mr. Parise,

When CWA came out, it was mostly inventory the company couldnt sell or use. IE. Sea Gardens, Avenue Plaza, Fairfield Bay, Fairfield Glade.

THE PITCH was you can get at "any" of the resorts in CWA with a 13mth priority. What they DIDNT tell you was, you can book The Glade all day at 13 mths out, but try to get Panama City Beach or Ocean Blvd.. Hahah best of luck.

And a maintenance fee being managed? I dont call over $5.00 being managed. I call it, someone is fueling their jet with the profits.
 
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It wasn’t just junk and left overs in the beginning. In the beginning they actively managed the trust to keep mf at a certain level. Put simply, for every high mf contract they got they had to get a low mf contract to offset it

I attended two or three of the annual meetingss and talked to the board about this. The may have been lying but the results spoke for themselves. CWA mf was in the early years below average

Its always gonna be low in the early years, to get people in it. Just like Atlantic City back in the day, in december is was like 3.xx / 1000 in january it was over 6.xx / 1000

Get em and jack it up.

Last I heard, to trade OUT of CWA you had to buy 150% of what you owned in CWA. Any truth to that?
 

ronparise

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Mr. Parise,

When CWA came out, it was mostly inventory the company couldnt sell or use. IE. Sea Gardens, Avenue Plaza, Fairfield Bay, Fairfield Glade.

THE PITCH was you can get at "any" of the resorts in CWA with a 13mth priority. What they DIDNT tell you was, you can book The Glade all day at 13 mths out, but try to get Panama City Beach or Ocean Blvd.. Hahah best of luck.

And a maintenance fee being managed? I dont call over $5.00 being managed. I call it, someone is fueling their jet with the profits.
We aren’t talking about arp. The discussion was about maintenance fees. And the goal, stated at the annual meetings I attended was to keep mf at or below average.

These annual meetings were lightly attended and I was able to speak to Mark Gray (the association president) and the treasurer (Hernandez) personally after the meeting

As I said above they may have been lying but the real proof that they weren’t was in my own accounts. I have owned contracts deeded at nearly all the resorts and twice have owned over 30 million points. I was not careful about buying only the low mf, I took everything that I was offered for free and that I could buy at low prices. What im saying is that I owned the averages. And my average mf was about what CWA was.

It’s only recently that the CWA mf has gotten a little above average

I think the misconception is that only the high mf contracts go back through Ovation. And before Ovation only folks that owned the high priced contracts paid the post card companies to get rid of them. I was able to get as many Bali Hai and National Harbor and Panama City points for free or neerly so, as the higher mf contracts

I have seen the CWA book and I was allowed to review it at length (in the San Diego sales room) my interest was only New Orleans ( I wanted to determine whether I should buy CWA or labella points for arp.

I had been told that the goal was for CWA to own 25% of all the resorts and I confirmed that they weee there at Labelle If CWA ends up owning 25% of everything then CWA mf will be “average”

The newer resorts with the higher points value, assuming that some of these places geo to CWA, will serve to push down the averages. Not push them up


When I was going to wyndham sales meetings, my experience was that I knew more about the product and how to use it than any of the sales people or sales managers that I met. Once the sales staff at a property figured out that they couldn’t snow me, they threw me out or let me teach them a thing or two

Don’t get me wrong, I attended those sales meetings to learn what I could, and I did learn some things, but usually the flow of information went from me to them


bottom line is that I’d advise the folks here on tug to take what any “expert” (including me) might say here with a grain of salt.
 
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Jan M.

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I've always said from when Wyndham first introduced CWA that it was a genius move on their part to unload what they had trouble selling. And it got them out of having to pay the high maintenance fees on that unsold inventory they couldn't unload. My husband still remembers me looking at the list of resorts in CWA saying they were resorts I could get stays pretty much anytime without needing the 13 month window. Basically junk. But over time more resorts now have inventory in CWA.

We used to go to the updates several times a year until sometime in 2013. At that point we weren't learning anything new or useful and we found the amount of lying extremely offensive and something we hadn't encountered in the past. From the onset of CWA there has never been a time that the maintenance fees were lower than what we owned.

When CWA began the number of foreclosures was high in real estate and timeshares were hit hard. I've never been sure how or why Wyndham allowed the older resorts to get in the shape they were in but CWA funneled money into updates and upgrades at older resorts badly in need of them.
 

Nomad34

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Our meeting in Glade last year trying to resolve the split resulted in learning that our original ownership at Fairway Forest Sapphire Valley was going to be upgraded this year. Our unit at Glade had just been renovated and appeared very up to date .I agree with Jan about many of her posts and wish the best for ones who are of knowing the best and worst of Wyndham but still hold on and look for good changes. I have enjoyed the years of ownership and just finished booking this year's points in hopes of relinquishing by November. Wyndham Cares hopefully will do more than ovation.
 

Jimag

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Its always gonna be low in the early years, to get people in it. Just like Atlantic City back in the day, in december is was like 3.xx / 1000 in january it was over 6.xx / 1000

Get em and jack it up.

Last I heard, to trade OUT of CWA you had to buy 150% of what you owned in CWA. Any truth to that?

You also said in response to Ron Parise: "And a maintenance fee being managed? I dont call over $5.00 being managed. I call it, someone is fueling their jet with the profits."

Are you saying that MFs at Wyndham managed properties have no relation to actual property expenses, such as salaries for maintenance staff, insurance, landscaping, repairs, contributions to reserves, real estate taxes, management company (Wyndham) fees, etc.? Are you suggesting Wyndham is vulnerable to the charge that their management services fees are fraudulent and unreasonable? Aren't the financial statements of the various properties audited similarly to the financial statements of condominiums and cooperatives?
 

Railman83

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We aren’t talking about arp. The discussion was about maintenance fees. And the goal, stated at the annual meetings I attended was to keep mf at or below average.

These annual meetings were lightly attended and I was able to speak to Mark Gray (the association president) and the treasurer (Hernandez) personally after the meeting

As I said above they may have been lying but the real proof that they weren’t was in my own accounts. I have owned contracts deeded at nearly all the resorts and twice have owned over 30 million points. I was not careful about buying only the low mf, I took everything that I was offered for free and that I could buy at low prices. What im saying is that I owned the averages. And my average mf was about what CWA was.

It’s only recently that the CWA mf has gotten a little above average

I think the misconception is that only the high mf contracts go back through Ovation. And before Ovation only folks that owned the high priced contracts paid the post card companies to get did of them. I was able to get as many Bali Hai and National Harbor and Panama City points for free or neerly so, as the higher mf contracts

I have seen the CWA book and I was allowed to review it at length (in the San Diego sales room) my interest was only New Orleans ( I wanted to determine whether I should buy CWA or labella points for arp.

I had been told that the goal was for CWA to own 25% of all the resorts and I confirmed that they weee there at Labelle If CWA ends up owning 25% of everything then CWA mf will be “average”

The newer resorts with the higher points value, assuming that some of these places geo to CWA, will serve to push down the averages. Not push them up


When I was going to wyndham sales meetings, my experience was that I knew more about the product and how to use it than any of the sales people or sales managers that I met. Once the sales staff at a property figured out that they couldn’t snow me, they threw me out or let me teach them a thing or two

Don’t get me wrong, I attended those sales meetings to learn what I could, and I did learn some things, but usually the flow of information went from me to them


bottom line is that I’d advise the folks here on tug to take what any “expert” (including me) might say here with a grain of salt.
Ron:

Somewhere you gave an analysis of why Wyndham would never alter the club to restrict resale to their home resorts.

My question is, given the CWA product ramp up and Wyndham attempting to corner the resale market do you still believe that is true?

My concern is Wyndham would cease the program to shake the tree and incentivize resale owners to turn in a product they can no longer use. Hope I’m wrong but what do you think?
 

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Ron:

Somewhere you gave an analysis of why Wyndham would never alter the club to restrict resale to their home resorts.

My question is, given the CWA product ramp up and Wyndham attempting to corner the resale market do you still believe that is true?

My concern is Wyndham would cease the program to shake the tree and incentivize resale owners to turn in a product they can no longer use. Hope I’m wrong but what do you think?

Club Wyndham is an exchange club

I give my right to use one resort and in exchange I can make reservations at the other resorts,,, The details of how it works are spelled out in the Fairshare Trust agreement

to remove my ownership from the trust, hurts me to be sure, but dosent it hurt the other owners even more by reducing inventory that was once available to them

All Im saying is that removing inventory from the trust would frustrate the purpose of the trust...it just dosnt make sense to me


Having said that... I do believe that wyndam is looking to the future and they are worried. Will the timeshare business model continue to be viable? I think that they are developing other ways or working the club..(like short term RTUs and rentals and god knows what else) but I think whatever the future brings, lots of available inventory will still be important which means they wont be removing inventory from the club.. Wyndham may end up owning more of it, but I cant see them removing inventory from the club
 

ronparise

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Mr. Parise,

When CWA came out, it was mostly inventory the company couldnt sell or use. IE. Sea Gardens, Avenue Plaza, Fairfield Bay, Fairfield Glade.

THE PITCH was you can get at "any" of the resorts in CWA with a 13mth priority. What they DIDNT tell you was, you can book The Glade all day at 13 mths out, but try to get Panama City Beach or Ocean Blvd.. Hahah best of luck.

And a maintenance fee being managed? I dont call over $5.00 being managed. I call it, someone is fueling their jet with the profits.


Im sure you know all about sales, but this comment shows you dont know much about what goes on at the resort level or in Peter Hernandez' shop regarding budgeting
 
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e there at Labelle If CWA ends up o
You also said in response to Ron Parise: "And a maintenance fee being managed? I dont call over $5.00 being managed. I call it, someone is fueling their jet with the profits."

Are you saying that MFs at Wyndham managed properties have no relation to actual property expenses, such as salaries for maintenance staff, insurance, landscaping, repairs, contributions to reserves, real estate taxes, management company (Wyndham) fees, etc.? Are you suggesting Wyndham is vulnerable to the charge that their management services fees are fraudulent and unreasonable? Aren't the financial statements of the various properties audited similarly to the financial statements of condominiums and cooperatives?

I am not saying ANY thing is fraud or unreasonable. I'm saying there is a breakdown of the fees and where they go...... But you truly get a accurate picture you would have to break it down further than the budget shows.. ONCE AGAIN. I enjoyed my time at Wyndham, their resorts are great, and they run a CLASS A employment program. Their benefits are beyond great...
 

Jan M.

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I'm saying there is a breakdown of the fees and where they go...... But to truly get a accurate picture you would have to break it down further than the budget shows

I've been treasurer for several different organizations over the years and have worked in bookkeeping. I'm very good with numbers and compiling them to get figures for reports. Numbers can be spun just as easily as words. There is a lot I would like to see the broken down on the budget that's presented.
 

HitchHiker71

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OP,

We just signed a WCA deal for 126k annual points at $145/1000 points for under 20k all in. MFs are around 800/year. Got some bonus points and VIP Silver through 2020 and a couple RCI free weeks thrown in. Good deal or should we rescind based upon your experience as a former WCA sales rep?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

ronparise

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OP,

We just signed a WCA deal for 126k annual points at $145/1000 points for under 20k all in. MFs are around 800/year. Got some bonus points and VIP Silver through 2020 and a couple RCI free weeks thrown in. Good deal or should we rescind based upon your experience as a former WCA sales rep?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not the OP but when Wyndham is selling this stuff every day for $200/1000; $145 looks pretty good and a maintenance fee rate of $6.3 is probably about todays average.. So great job and a great price


On the other hand you spent $18000 The same number of points could be had for under $1000 on ebay
 

ronparise

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I've been treasurer for several different organizations over the years and have worked in bookkeeping. I'm very good with numbers and compiling them to get figures for reports. Numbers can be spun just as easily as words. There is a lot I would like to see the broken down on the budget that's presented.


Those are serious charges, You are accusing Wyndham of stealing from the resorts and ultimately the owners... I just dont think that they need to do that, There is enough stealing going on in the sales rooms Thats where Wyndham makes their money

about the maintenance fees, the only money that percolates up to Wyndham is the management fee. certainly they make a lot with that, but its clear what they are taking in the budget

Unless of course you think they are getting kickbacks from the various electric companies and other service providers.
 

ddavid1073

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Hi,
Could you verify for me that Wyndham Sales People are paid through "commission only"? If that's true, I'd say that puts a lot of pressure on them to either make sales or not be able to support themselves.

I would think that is where a lot of their sales pressure and inaccurate statements come from.

I find that Wyndham points are a good value IF you purchase on the secondary market for pennies on the dollars of the original cost.

Purchasing from Wyndham is a loser as far as resale goes. Would you care to speculate why Wyndham wouldn't repurchase many of the EBAY resales and then resell them at full or close to full price In my mind it would drive up the cost of resales and thereby give the sales force additional reasons why it's a good idea to purchase through Wyndham. Plus they would recoup their outlay times 50 on the resale of the resale.

Thanks!
 

cayman01

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To the OP. What kind of commission rate do salesmen make on their sales. What is their actual skin in the game? Bonuses? Salary plus or straight commission?
 

Jan M.

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Those are serious charges, You are accusing Wyndham of stealing from the resorts and ultimately the owners... I just dont think that they need to do that, There is enough stealing going on in the sales rooms Thats where Wyndham makes their money

about the maintenance fees, the only money that percolates up to Wyndham is the management fee. certainly they make a lot with that, but its clear what they are taking in the budget

Unless of course you think they are getting kickbacks from the various electric companies and other service providers.

Not accusing them of stealing at all. What I am saying is how easy it is to manipulate numbers to give a false or inaccurate impression. When people look at and base decisions or opinions on research, numbers, statistics most of them have no idea how easy it is to manipulate those things so people come to the conclusion you want them to. Numbers when not broken down and fully explained can be used. I never like hearing we did this to make it simpler for everyone to understand or that it's just too complex for anyone who isn't an accounting wizard to understand. And I have to admit that I've done that very thing. I've actually had to dumb down numbers to get people able to understand the big picture.

My old boss use to have this weird thing he said about numbers lie and liars number. He always said he trusted me like he trusted extremely few people. He knew both my husband and I, we are of a similar age and background, and he also knew that I am obsessive about making numbers tell the whole truth in detail. He usually didn't understand the numbers and wanted no part of hearing the explanations. Numbers people love for someone else to understand and be able to appreciate their work so that was kind of a disappointment. He also knew that made me feel extremely responsible to make sure those numbers told a true picture because he was making decisions based on them that affected not just him but everyone working for him.

The multimillion dollar question is always who do you trust or should you trust them? When a company fails to be transparent on everything they do and not only condones lying but promotes it then......

Whenever a person works with vendors, suppliers, etc. there is always the opportunity to benefit from kickbacks. I guess it depends on what a person considers kickbacks. To me they aren't always money or expensive things. They can be tickets to a game, a nice dinner for the person and their spouse/so, a golf outing. In my book they are still kickbacks whether you call them that or tokens of appreciation from a vendor, supplier, etc. And it would be extremely naive of me to say it isn't commonplace. Whenever we're at a new resort or one that has been updated and I don't care for the new furnishings or find the sofa or chairs uncomfortable to sit in I always say jokingly to my husband that I hope someone got a big kickback. Otherwise there isn't any excuse for making such poor choices. Because for crying out loud this isn't HGTV, we actually want to sit and relax on this furniture!
 
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Lisa P

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Duplicate, sorry.
 
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