Updated "Starwood Vacation Ownership" Advice Article

[Denise L]

I think it's good news for existing WKORV owners too. WKORV weeks should hold their resale value better than WKORVN. It will be interesting to see what happens when WKORVN resale weeks start hitting the market.

Hi Denise,

Just curious why you would think that WKORV would hold its value better than WKORV-N. As far as I am aware, both are mandatory resorts. I would think that the resale prices would be similar?

I am surprised about WPORV. As I posted previously, it is my understanding that the state of Hawaii requires that the SVN privileges be transferred with the deed upon resale.

Can anyone who owns Kierland find the wording in their contract that states that it is a mandatory resort? I just remember how it was talked about as being voluntary initially but then was really mandatory. Just wondering what the docs specifically say.

 

[smsavage]

I think it's good news for existing WKORV owners too. WKORV weeks should hold their resale value better than WKORVN. It will be interesting to see what happens when WKORVN resale weeks start hitting the market.

Think SDO or SMV at the beach...But more expensive.....

 

[MON2REY]

DeniseM,
Please explain your logic. If both WKORV and WKORVN are mandatory why do you think the older one would hold its value better?

 

[smsavage]

I think that what's missing in this equation is confirmation that WKORVN is mandatory. If that's the case, WKORV N and S should hold value in a similar fashion.

Perhaps they started WKORVN sales before looking at SVN issues, as they appear to have at the new voluntary resorts? Cancun and Princeville sales began later and possibly after a change in corporate philosophy.

Anyone have WKORVN contract language handy?

 

[Denise L]

I thought that someone posted here that they read their contract and WKORV-N is mandatory.

For what it is worth, I have heard "unofficially" that WKORV-N is mandatory, and from more than one source.

Starwood owners, find the fine print about this for WKORV-N and Kierland, and post here if you get a chance!

 

[DavidnRobin]

It was me - WKORV-N is mandatory - I have the docs from when I rescinded. I am not sure about WPORV - my docs have similar text as reported above. Being able to exchange was a selling point - as it is for WPORV. The docs are textually confusing because they read as if it is not required to pay the SVN fee unless you want to exchange within the SVN system - and therefore not mandatory (but we know that is not the case).

The docs are a PDF file and is a very large file - I can't copy paste from them - the paper docs I have for WKORV have similar text.

Why not just call SVO direct sales and ask?

The MFs fees for WPORV sure are high.

 

[DeniseM]

I'm basing my post on Chris's post. Maybe I misread something, but I haven't seen anyone post that it clearly stated in their contract that it is "mandatory." Until then, I 'm going with Chris. (I'm actually hoping it's voluntary!)

I have been told by a reliable source that WKORVN is not mandatory. Things can change, so I am 80% confident in this statement. I'm not sure how the mandatory and non-mandatory categories started, but I have no doubt that it is a thorn in the side to the Sales Department. Looks like they got their way with WKORVN. The pendulum may swing the other way again someday, though.

 

[arlene22]

I still have the WKORV-N documentation - so I can look it up - but as I just posted that a TS selling point was the ability to exchange into other SVN resorts and the list they gave me were other SVN mandatory.

Follow-up: I looked at the WKORV-N documentation - and from what I can tell WKORV-N behaves just like WKORV in that you can use your StarOptions to exchange into other SVN resorts in the SVN system. I do not see why WPORV (Princeville) would be any different - A big SVO TS selling point is the ability to exchange within the SVN system - watch out what a SVO TS salesman says...

If you buy a voluntary resort from Starwood, you would still be able to exchange within SVN. There is no difference to the original owner. The question is, whether or not that privilege extends to a resale purchaser.

 

[DavidnRobin]

oh - the madness...

As discussed - WKORV and WKORV-N are mandatory - the TS docs have the same wording in this regard. The ability to exchange does exist for mandatory resale - and the SVN exchange fee is charged accordingly ( I have been charged $103 for WKORV and $33 for WSJ as the second TS).

I know nothing about non-mandatory/voluntary resorts other (from what I can interpret) than that buyers from the developer can pay the fee to exchange if they want to use the SVN exchange system - resale buyers may not have this available to them.

We should clear this up and update the SVN advice article so it is clear.

Follow-up - yet again:
What is confusion in the WKORV (S&N) docs is they talk about 'Points' as StarOptions (page 8 of the Owners Handbook) yet we know that StarPoints are not the same as StarOptions - this leads to confusion. Regardless - it then talks about the 'SVN Club' where these 'points' are used to reserve aor exchange. With WKORV (S&N) you are part of this SVN Club.

Like I said - the docs are textually confusing, but the wording between WKORV and WKORV-N are identical - and is WKORV is mandatory (as we know it is) then WKORV-N would also be. The docs go on to discuss SVN Points being different than Club Points - we know these as StarPoints.

When we bought WKORV-N - the docs had a SVN fee that was used to exchange within the SVN system - this was a mandatory fee - thus again making WKORV-N a mandatory resort.

 

[DeniseM]

I understand what you're saying Robin, and you may be right, but the contracts you are quoting from talk about your rights when you buy from the developer, so I don't think they we can assume it applies to resales as well. It could go either way, but since Cancun and WPORV are both voluntary, it makes you wonder about WKORVN. Hopefully, we will eventually get a definitive answer.

 

[Denise L]

Where does it talk about this in original WKORV docs?

I just spent the past hour going through our WKORV purchase agreement, looking for info on mandatory SVN, etc. Does anyone know where I would find this information?

The reason I am asking is because my good friends own at WKORV-N and are also looking through their docs for "proof" so that we might put this issue to rest. However, they need some guidance in finding it and I was looking for maybe a section or a page or something in my docs, but I couldn't find anything. Can someone help me out, so that I can point them to the right section, and then I can quote the section here (assuming it exists).

Thanks!

 

[DavidnRobin]

Hi DM - David here - just 11 days until our wedding nuptials in Maui - hopefully no rain (or earthquakes) - and our 1st stay at WKORV (woohoo) - we are looking forward to the OF Deluxe LO - with family in every room (not much of a Honeymoon - haha) - hopefully we are on a high floor (the seller requested 12 months out, but don't know if that reset with our purchase last Jan.) Our family will be stuffing ourself on T-Day with 10 of us - hopefully it will be roomy enough (and that we can get a turkey at the Safeway) sure hopes it's better than 7.5 (sorry - couldn't help myself - I have a rotten sense of humor).
Congrats on your Tahoe purchase - beautiful area - we have good friends who own a house in Lahontan (Truckee) - lucky us. And also know of an inexpensive cabin rental in Kings Beach (another friend).

Regarding the whole voluntary/mandatory thing. I really don't care one way or another - I do not plan to exchange from our OF WKORV or WSJ - it would not be worth it value-wise - WSJ has poor SOs and we plan to go every year (looking to hopefully buy the sellers other week someday). And the OF Deluxe at WKORV would only be a downward exchange (that was the reason we rescinded WKORV-N and paid less of a small fortune for WKORV). We may buy 81K SOs at WKV to exchange into WPORV someday (or stay at WKV).

I don't understand the big deal about mandatory/voluntary - I would gladly not pay the SVN fee since I have no need to exchange (except the studio LO perhaps if I could exchange into WSJ for week23/25 - fat chance).
From my undertanding - if one buys a voluntary resort resale they cannot get into the SVN system, but if they buy from the Developer they can if they pay the fee. And if one buys a mandatory resort (resale or Developer) they can use the SVN system, and must pay the fee regardless. Isn't that correct - or am I missing something?

I am not following the logic here regarding WKORVN. Are you saying that if I buy resale at WKORV-N - I cannot get into the SVN system - and therefore cannot exchange thru the SVN system (even if they wanted to pay the SVN fee) - thereby making WKORV-N voluntary?

The docs I have (both resorts) are essentially identical except for the addresses and some formatting. Nowhere does it state that if you sell your unit the buyer does not get into the 'SVN Club' (aka SVN exchange),

Doesn't make sense - not to have the same SVN exchange resort privledges at WKORV-N as we do at WKORV - that was what they were trying to sell me on. Why would it be in any way different between the 2 adjacent resorts - with the same contract language? Why would someone buy a voluntary resort and not have that available to them. That would suck to pay all that money for WKORV-N and not be able to sell to someone unless the resale buyer would be prepared to always stay there.

Again - am I missing something? I am more curious than anything.

I can burn the two PDF files and send them to you - I have tried to read them, but as I said - not a straight forward read.

 

[DavidnRobin]

I just spent the past hour going through our WKORV purchase agreement, looking for info on mandatory SVN, etc. Does anyone know where I would find this information?

The reason I am asking is because my good friends own at WKORV-N and are also looking through their docs for "proof" so that we might put this issue to rest. However, they need some guidance in finding it and I was looking for maybe a section or a page or something in my docs, but I couldn't find anything. Can someone help me out, so that I can point them to the right section, and then I can quote the section here (assuming it exists).


Thanks!

As I just wrote (long) to DM - nowhere in the Owners Manual can I find differences between the two resorts. I have both Owners Manuals - it would unlikely be in the Purchase Contract - the PC should point to the Owners Manual. Don't you have a copy of the WKORV-N docs on CD ROM? I do, but too big to send by email. I could try and compress and send - or I can burn and send - if you don't have them (very long).

Or - why not call SVO Direct sales and ask?

Pages 5-9 of the owners manual describes the 'points' and 'SVN club'

 

[Denise L]

In a nutshell, resales at voluntary resorts do not come with any Staroptions for internal SVN exchanges. It's that simple. Yes, there are no SVN fees, but what you get is a week (or whatever you bought) at that resort, and the option to exchange externally via II or SFX or other private exchange companies.

What this does is severely lower the value of the week that was originally purchased from the developer. If a buyer can't get into SVN, then it is, in theory, worth less to him. Now, if a buyer is happy buying just a week at that resort, then the mandatory/voluntary shouldn't matter to him in the least. But for those who paid full price from the developer, it's quite a substantial loss of value when the time comes to sell.

In my opinion, it would be nice if Starwood followed HGVC, Hyatt, Marriott and DVC in this respect. They keep their values up and extend the internal exchange privileges to resale purchases.

It's a still a relatively "young" player in this market. Maybe things will change down the road.

 

[DavidnRobin]

In a nutshell, resales at voluntary resorts do not come with any Staroptions for internal SVN exchanges. It's that simple. Yes, there are no SVN fees, but what you get is a week (or whatever you bought) at that resort, and the option to exchange externally via II or SFX or other private exchange companies.

What this does is severely lower the value of the week that was originally purchased from the developer. If a buyer can't get into SVN, then it is, in theory, worth less to him. Now, if a buyer is happy buying just a week at that resort, then the mandatory/voluntary shouldn't matter to him in the least. But for those who paid full price from the developer, it's quite a substantial loss of value when the time comes to sell.

In my opinion, it would be nice if Starwood followed HGVC, Hyatt, Marriott and DVC in this respect. They keep their values up and extend the internal exchange privileges to resale purchases.

It's a still a relatively "young" player in this market. Maybe things will change down the road.

OK - I get it - I think that was what I was saying??? - luckily it doesn't really matter to me. Given that - why would someone buy voluntary - and why would SVO care if they are getting their fee?

Section 7 (page 17) is the section on Restraints on Transfer of Buyers Interest.

I would be willing to put $ that WKORV-N is mandatory - but then again I like to gamble...


Follow-up - I just read Section 7 - if SVO does not exercise there ROFR refusal - they are consenting - HOWEVER they must be informed of the sell - if not informed, then SVN priviledges are not extended to the buyer (and are blocked)

 

[Denise L]

Don't you have a copy of the WKORV-N docs on CD ROM? I do, but too big to send by email. I could try and compress and send - or I can burn and send - if you don't have them (very long).

Or - why not call SVO Direct sales and ask?

Pages 5-9 of the owners manual describes the 'points' and 'SVN club'

Hi David,

I have the WKORV docs on CD...DH did a search for mandatory, voluntary, but nothing came up. Maybe nothing is written if it is mandatory, whereas in the WPORV docs, it is explicitly spelled out.

I haven't tried the SVO Direct sales yet. Like I said, my sources say WKORV-N is mandatory, so maybe "no text" is the proof? I still would like to find out if Kierland's documents also contain no text. If the one common element in all the mandatory resorts is no text like WPORV's, then that should be some sort of confirmation .

All we have to do is wait for the first TUGer to buy a WKORV-N resale , then we'll know.

 

[DeniseM]

Or - why not call SVO Direct sales and ask?

Hi David - Thanks for your response. When a couple signs both names to their posts I am never sure who I am responding to. It seems like a good idea to call SVO Direct Sales and ask, but you will probably get a different answer every time you call. Past experience says that the sales office doesn't know much about resales, and it's in their best interest to give an answer that supports buying from the developer.

My own selfish reason for hoping that the WKORVN is voluntary is that in a few years, I hope I will be able to sell our mandatory WKORV OV Unit and buy a WKORVN ocean front unit for the same or less!

 

[Denise L]

OK - I get it - I think that was what I was saying??? - luckily it doesn't really matter to me. Given that - why would someone buy voluntary - and why would SVO care if they are getting their fee?

Section 7 (page 17) is the section on Restraints on Transfer of Buyers Interest.

I would be willing to put $ that WKORV-N is mandatory - but then again I like to gamble...

Someone will buy voluntary if they just want a week at that resort. And the prices are significantly lower than buying direct, so why not? They can still trade with II or another company. Others buy them cheap and then get them requalified with a retail purchase.

I did read that section above, but there is nothing explicit that I can see there. Oh well, on to more interesting things!

Enjoy your wedding, how exciting ! Our anniversary of our Maui wedding is Friday! Wish we were there now, but the kids school schedule came first this year. Maybe next year...

 

[DavidnRobin]

OK - last post on this - it does look as if WPORV is voluntary from the post #21 that contains language specific to this point. WKORV-N is mandatory (sorry DM) - there is no language in the TS docs that prohibits transfer of SVN Club priviledges upon resale unless SVO is not informed of the sell and has a option for a ROFR.

 

[Denise L]

Starwood Vacation Exchange Company Disclosure Guide

My DH found this on page 533 of our 2003 WKORV Owner's Handbook:

"If the SVN member no longer owns a Club Resort Vacation Ownership Interest, the person no longer will be an SVN Member and the new owner of that Club Resort Vacation Ownership Interest automatically will become the SVN Member."

 

[MON2REY]

I briefly scanned my purchase documents. On the first page in about the third section it states that I am a member of SVN. Nowhere was there any mention of my ability to opt out by not paying the fees. I assume, by that, that membership is "mandatory" at WKORVN.

 

[Bill4728]

This is such a simple question " are the princeville and WKORV-N resorts mandatory?" The fact that it is so hard to find the answer to that question is one of the reasons why I dislike Starwood. You'd think we Tuggers could easily find that answer.

That Starwood would may a policy ''All new resorts will be mandatory or all new resorts will be voluntary". The fact that someone says that the state of hawaii requires mandatory resorts yet it appears that princeville is voluntary. All this just makes me crazy. (crazier? LOL )

 

[DeniseM]

I briefly scanned my purchase documents. On the first page in about the third section it states that I am a member of SVN. Nowhere was there any mention of my ability to opt out by not paying the fees. I assume, by that, that membership is "mandatory" at WKORVN.

Not really, because ALL the SVN resorts are mandatory for owners who buy from the developer, but they are not all mandatory when you buy resale. In other words, if you buy from the developer, you cannot opt out of SVN membership. You can't assume that applies to resales, unless it is explictly stated.

 

[grgs]

My DH found this on page 533 of our 2003 WKORV Owner's Handbook:

"If the SVN member no longer owns a Club Resort Vacation Ownership Interest, the person no longer will be an SVN Member and the new owner of that Club Resort Vacation Ownership Interest automatically will become the SVN Member."

It took me a while to find it, but my Kierland CD-ROM has the exact same language on p. 196.

Gee our whole document is 262 p. I wonder why yours is so much longer!

Glorian

 

[Denise L]

It took me a while to find it, but my Kierland CD-ROM has the exact same language on p. 196.

Gee our whole document is 262 p. I wonder why yours is so much longer!

Glorian

Hi Glorian, thanks for taking a look. Now we just need to find that language in the WKORV-N docs. I've asked my friend to take a look for us.

I don't know why our docs are so long!