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UCLA Basketball players

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DeniseM

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I was just thinking about the Rio Olympics when US Olympic swimmers vandalized a gas station, lied about it, and then made a false police report.

Similar situation, except they made it worse by lying and making a false police report.

As I recall, they were later suspended from their sport. (That may not be 100% correct - I didn't actually look it up right now.)

To those of you who would have liked to see the BB players tried and punished in China, would you have liked to see the swimmers tried and punished in Rio?
 
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heathpack

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I've been struck at how harsh people seem to be these days.

When I was in college, I stopped attending my calculus class my freshman year. My father had a stroke before Thanksgiving and I wound up going home for the holiday early because of that. In the meantime, the instructor moved an exam up that was supposed to happen after the holiday. I missed the exam since I was away, was given a zero, and mathematically that meant I could not pass the class. So I just stopped going, was given an incomplete and eventually an F for the class. I didn't seem like it would ever matter, I was an English major. Then I decided I wanted to go to vet school, and that F meant I would never get in, calculus was a required course for the application process. The rules were clear at my university, once that incomplete turned to an F (at the end of the following semester), that was irrevocable. But I met with the dean, he listened to my story, looked at my otherwise good record, and decided to make me a deal. I could retake calculus and he'd replace my F with whatever grade I got the second time through. Little tiny decision that changed the course of my life. Grateful to the guy to this day.

Fast forward a generation and my nephew is attending a different university in the same state system. He is assigned a roommate who is a big pothead. My nephew had a previous misdemeanor possession conviction previously and drugs in his dorm room had way bigger potential consequences for him. Argued a lot with his roommate about being so blatant with the pot smoking and then one day their room is raided by law enforcement. After the dust settled, nephew got into another argument with the roommate, threw a punch but didn't actually connect with the guy. Banned from the entire state university system because of a zero tolerance policy for violence. Never did graduate from college, he couldn't afford private college. Went on to trade school and eventually found his place in the world. But it always struck me how disproportionate the penalty was.

Obviously this is different from the UCLA players in that neither myself nor my nephew committed a crime (unless it is a crime to throw a punch at someone without actually hitting them?). But the tone is the same. It seems so popular here in this thread and in our society in general to demand big consequences for relatively minor offenses. Yes the players stole sunglasses and it is a crime to do so. Yes there should be a penalty. Should that penalty be 15 years in a Chinese prison or ruining the rest of their lives by banning them from sport? Seems way harsh to me. Give people a chance to redeem their mistakes and sometimes they actually do...
 

CalGalTraveler

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They have not been "proven" guilty but they did admit that they stole the sunglasses.

I don't think we should penalize them because they were honest. What kind of message does that send to other kids - lie, deny, deny - no matter what. FWIW...They have apologized and were contrite. I know that this doesn't absolve them but the negative effect on their future prospects will follow them for life because of Google.

BTW...Some foreign countries have been known to force people to admit to wrongdoing even if they did not commit the crime - these kids were probably scared silly at the prospect of 10 years of Chinese prison. Who knows?

The lesson is that U.S. travelers need to be on their best behavior. Americans too often assume that they will be treated under the same laws in foreign countries and that's simply not the case.
 

easyrider

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Kurt - Your argument is not logical:

What if I have premarital sex in a country where it is punishable by death? Do you want me to be stoned to death because that is the law there?

What if I tear a poster off the wall in North Korea? Do you want me to be tortured and murdered in prison because that is the law there?

Following the laws of another country is not the same thing as approving of the legal penalties in another country, that may be far more severe than the consequences under the US legal system.

The basketball players did a really stupid thing. But they are 19 - did you ever do a stupid thing when you were 19? I sure did!

I believe they should have appropriate consequences with the law, and their school - in the US. I don't believe their entire lives should be ruined.

When a person travels internationally they should be aware of the consequences of their actions. Many people have simply smoked a little pot and been incarcerated in a foreign prison. Knowing this can happen why would a person light up. A good example is the Philippines where possession of any marijuana is punishable with 12 years in prison.

I agree that their entire lives shouldn't be ruined but remember the old saying "don't do the crime if you can't do the time " ? Its applicable to this situation, imo.

Bill
 

pedro47

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Does anyone remember the University of Virginia student that was charged and convicted of a crime in North Korea and where he is today/now?

This event occurred in the past sixteen (16) months.
 

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Kurt - Your argument is not logical:

What if I have premarital sex in a country where it is punishable by death? Do you want me to be stoned to death because that is the law there?

What if I tear a poster off the wall in North Korea? Do you want me to be tortured and murdered in prison because that is the law there?
I doubt any rational person would want it, but I doubt that would save you. I think that's more to Kurt's point.
 

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Nope - that is not what he said - he clearly said HE THOUGHT they should have been tried and punished in China:
I just think one should be held to the laws and justice system of the country they are in
 

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Nope - that is not what he said - he clearly said HE THOUGHT they should have been tried and punished in China:
I get his argument to a point, but that's crazy if there is no evaluation of the crime vs. punishment.

But my point (not Kurt's) is that what "we" want likely won't change what will happen, especially in the countries that would apply your examples, that have a different foundation for their laws.
 

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I guess their privilege got them out of this. Not to mention a political move that one wanted to capitalize on. Where is the outrage from the people on this? Or do those people think in this case it is okay? The enemy of my enemy is my friend?

How many people are locked up in foreign countries for crimes that they did not even commit? Where is the outcry and international stories for those people.

A lot of visitors/newcomers in Europe and elsewhere do not think the local national laws apply to them. The result is very bad.

Other then playing basketball how did those 3 ever get into UCLA with the thinking it is a good idea to steal in China while representing your university and country?
 

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Nope - that is not what he said - he clearly said HE THOUGHT they should have been tried and punished in China:

How many years in a chinese jail do you think they should have got for stealing? hotel arrest and being sent home is not much.
 

DeniseM

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am1 - Your pronouncement that they "got away with this" is premature. They are indefinitely suspended from the team, and their punishment has not been announced, so you don't know what their punishment is.

After what happened to Otto Warmbier in North Korea, I don't want any American kids to go to jail in countries where their civil rights will not be protected.

I do want them to have serious consequences in the US. But in the US, 19 year olds with clean records do not go to jail "for years," for a first offense of shoplifting.
 
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Talent312

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To those who believe that these kids should've been exposed to brutal 10-year prison terms in China, I recommend the movie, "Midnight Express" (1978) - based on a non-fiction book. It saddens me to think that some among us believe that we should do nothing to look after the interests and well-being of our citizens abroad... not to get them off the hook, but to see to it that they are dealt with fairly and humanely. Leaving these kids to the wiles of the Chinese criminal justice system would be inhumane.

.
 

WalnutBaron

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What's interesting to consider is what would have happened if the criminal justice system in China would have been allowed to run its course. The UCLA players would have been tried, convicted, and jailed. But--because of the very high profile nature of their case--they would have become a cause celebre for activists here, and the U.S. State Department would have been flooded with petitions to lobby the Chinese government to release them. It likely would have happened, though after several months, and they also likely would have become (and, who knows, maybe already are) a "trading chip" in the brewing trade disputes between the U.S. and China.

Did the UCLA players get special treatment? Absolutely. Do they deserve punishment of an enduring length of time by UCLA and the NCAA? Darn right they do.

I do know this: if one of my sons was in the same position, I would have been grateful for the American government's intervention.
 

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Any punishment they get in the US, be it from their university or federally will pale in comparison to what they would have got in China. That is why they "got away with it". The phone call would not have been made if the punishment in the US would be anywhere close to what it would have been in China. That would be suicide. Easier to blame the Chinese for the outcome of punishment.

Is it rich privilege or political points that got this done? Or just a chance for someone to show the world what they can do with a phone call?

People who are innocent get kicked out of university/off the university team. How many men have been kicked out of university and or suspended from their team because of a he said/she said rape even with video evidence as proof or without it?

At this point, being expelled from the university seems about the most they will get.
 

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Any punishment they get in the US, be it from their university or federally will pale in comparison to what they would have got in China. That is why they "got away with it". The phone call would not have been made if the punishment in the US would be anywhere close to what it would have been in China. That would be suicide. Easier to blame the Chinese for the outcome of punishment.

Is it rich privilege or political points that got this done? Or just a chance for someone to show the world what they can do with a phone call?

People who are innocent get kicked out of university/off the university team. How many men have been kicked out of university and or suspended from their team because of a he said/she said rape even with video evidence as proof or without it?

At this point, being expelled from the university seems about the most they will get.
I've never heard of a kid getting expelled from a University for shoplifting. Maybe BYU due to their strict conduct code? Certainly not a State university. That would almost be as absurd as someone thinking one should spend 10 years in a communist prison for shoplifting.
 

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I've never heard of a kid getting expelled from a University for shoplifting. Maybe BYU due to their strict conduct code? Certainly not a State university. That would almost be as absurd as someone thinking one should spend 10 years in a communist prison for shoplifting.

Not in the US no but while representing your team/country abroad in a communist country while having to get your nations president involved??

Now the question is where do people shoplift more in the US or China?
 

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am1 - What possible purpose would be served by sending three 19 year olds to prison in China?

Your desire to ruin these kids is alarming. Did you get this worked up about the Olympic swimmers in Rio?

AND - please stop with the political angle, or this thead will be closed.
 

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Not in the US no but while representing your team/country abroad in a communist country while having to get your nations president involved??

Now the question is where do people shoplift more in the US or China?
Now that they are back home, we should apply OUR laws, and OUR rules.I doubt they will be expelled from UCLA, much less the UCLA basketball team. As it should be. Yes, they "skated" from an evil decrepit empire that has complete disregard for basic human rights and dignities. That's a good thing too.
 

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am1 - What possible purpose would be served by sending three 19 year olds to prison in China?

Your desire to ruin these kids is alarming. Did you get this worked up about the Olympic swimmers in Rio?

AND - please stop with the political angle, or this thead will be close.

Those are the laws there. I do not agree with them but I would also not shoplift in China because of them. Surely someone smart enough to get into UCLA would think the same?

I have no intention of wanted them ruined but they need more of a wake up call then they have been given.

Do you feel more for others who are locked up in communist countries who are actually innocent but do not have the support of the media?
 

DeniseM

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am1 - You are a full-grown man, and one would hope that you were more mature than a 19 year old, and would make better decisions. When you were a teenager, did you never make bad choices? If not, congratulations, because you are the first.

Again - you don't know what their punishment is, so you are jumping to conclusions. I also think you are discounting how much this may impact their career in basketball. This is a devastating setback for a 19 year old hoping to go pro.

I don't know anyone who is innocent and locked up in a communist country, if I did, I'm sure I would feel terrible for them, but that doesn't have ANYTHING to do with the topic at hand.
 
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am1 - You are a full-grown man, and one would hope that you were more mature than a 19 year old, and would make better decisions. When you were a teenager, did you never make bad choices? If not, congratulations, because you are the first.

Again - you don't know what their punishment is, so you are jumping to conclusions. I also think you are discounting how much this may impact their career in basketball. This is a devastating setback for a 19 year old hoping to go pro.

I don't know anyone who is innocent and locked up in a communist country, if I did, I'm sure I would feel terrible for them, but that doesn't have ANYTHING to do with the topic at hand.

Sure but not like this. Were or are? I did make some bad decisions but not nuclear bad decisions. Any consequences that came or would have come based on the probability of those consequences were accepted. My guess is less then half of NCAA student athletes should actually be eligible and that is being generous. In this situation I feel 100 percent that they should no longer be eligible let alone be allowed to be on the team in the school. I would say what they received is an improper gift based on them being on the UCLA basketball team. That alone is grounds for being ruled ineligible.

A few days ago I received an e-mail from my former university about what is and what is not acceptable to give to student athletes. The what is not was much longer.

I never asked if you actually knew anyone was innocent but locked up abroad. But surely if someone was locked up abroad who was innocent they should receive more attention from the public, media and powers that be. But that is not the case.
 

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Kurt - Your argument is not logical:

Thank you Denise and several others. Some of these points of view, there is just no way to reply.
 

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I do know this: if one of my sons was in the same position, I would have been grateful for the American government's intervention.

most parents would...except the one whos dad is an NBA player....who appears to not appreciate or acknowledge it one bit.
 

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Brian - Lavar Ball is not a former NBA player - he's just a wanna-be, living vicariously through his sons:

LaVar Ball is an American media personality and businessman who is the father of basketball players Lonzo of the Los Angeles Lakers, UCLA freshman LiAngelo, and Chino Hills High School basketball player LaMelo. Wikipedia
 
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