The new directory is here

[wjappraise]

Question regarding PR benefits:

In prior books, the PR benefits (but not the VIP benefits) would transfer upon resale. Am I missing something that the new directory implies that PR benefits do NOT transfer upon resale now? Or is simply the PR benefits for contracts less than one million? Any observations will be helpful.

Thanks in advance,
Wes

 

[Braindead]

Question regarding PR benefits:

In prior books, the PR benefits (but not the VIP benefits) would transfer upon resale. Am I missing something that the new directory implies that PR benefits do NOT transfer upon resale now? Or is simply the PR benefits for contracts less than one million? Any observations will be helpful.

Thanks in advance,
Wes

The way I read it that’s it for all contracts under 1 million points. At the start of eligibility it states at least one million PR points in a SINGLE contract but then it becomes muddy water. I think a resale PR contract with at least one million points will get all benefits except The Registry Collection and VIP benefits. In order to get the VIP benefits you will already need to be Platinum.

I don’t think it’s very clear on at least one million points in a single contract even if you bought as a developer purchase.

 

[Jimag]

Isn't Presidential Reserve a deeded right not an administrative benefit?

 

[Richelle]

Isn't Presidential Reserve a deeded right not an administrative benefit?

It is, which is why resale still gets ARP, but the other benefits can change.

 

[Jan M.]

CLUB WYNDHAM Presidential Reserve Eligibility The CLUB WYNDHAM Presidential Reserve product and benefits are available to CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Members who have purchased and continue to own within one contract (i) an ownership interest in a Presidential Reserve Suite(s), or an Ownership interest at a Presidential Reserve Resort with an Assigned Use Right to occupy a Presidential Reserve Suite(s), with a minimum allocation of 1,000,000 CLUB WYNDHAM Plus points; or (ii) a minimum allocation of 1,000,000 Presidential Reserve points in a Club that owns an ownership interest in, or an Assigned Use Right to occupy, a Presidential Reserve Suite(s). Only points associated with ownership interests purchased directly from Wyndham Vacation Resorts or its affiliates, or acquired from an Immediate Relative*, are eligible for full CLUB WYNDHAM Presidential Reserve benefits. In the event that a CLUB WYNDHAM Presidential Reserve Member’s ownership interest or Assigned Use Right in a Presidential Reserve Suite(s) totals less than 1,000,000 CLUB WYNDHAM Plus points, Member will no longer be eligible to receive benefits under the Presidential Reserve program. Benefits shall be limited to Advance Reservation Priority (ARP) bookings in a Presidential Reserve Suite(s) at Member’s “home” resort from 14 to 12 months prior to check-in date, and benefits available to Member under the CLUB WYNDHAM Plus program based upon the number of points owned. Any such reservations made during the ARP window may not exceed the total point value of the Member’s Presidential Reserve ownership interest or Assigned Use Right in a Presidential Reserve Suite(s). Such CLUB WYNDHAM® Presidential Reserve 233 Members will no longer be eligible to receive the following Presidential Reserve Member benefits: (i) exclusive access to available Presidential Reserve Suites at resorts other than their “home” resort from 12 to 10 months prior to the check-in date; (ii) access to the Privileged Reserve Period for Presidential Reserve Suites from 10 months to 1 month prior to the check-in date; (iii) exchange privileges through The Registry Collection®; and (iv) such other benefits that may be added to the Presidential Reserve program from time to time. Member’s VIP ownership level will be dependent upon the total number of points owned that meet the eligibility requirements for the VIP program. Such Members will continue to pay maintenance fees in accordance with the governing documents of their “home” resort and program fees associated with the CLUB WYNDHAM Plus program. *“Immediate Relative” currently includes parents, spouses, domestic partners, siblings, children and grandchildren.

 

[Jimag]

CLUB WYNDHAM Presidential Reserve Eligibility The CLUB WYNDHAM Presidential Reserve product and benefits are available to CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Members who have purchased and continue to own within one contract (i) an ownership interest in a Presidential Reserve Suite(s), or an Ownership interest at a Presidential Reserve Resort with an Assigned Use Right to occupy a Presidential Reserve Suite(s), with a minimum allocation of 1,000,000 CLUB WYNDHAM Plus points; or (ii) a minimum allocation of 1,000,000 Presidential Reserve points in a Club that owns an ownership interest in, or an Assigned Use Right to occupy, a Presidential Reserve Suite(s). Only points associated with ownership interests purchased directly from Wyndham Vacation Resorts or its affiliates, or acquired from an Immediate Relative*, are eligible for full CLUB WYNDHAM Presidential Reserve benefits. In the event that a CLUB WYNDHAM Presidential Reserve Member’s ownership interest or Assigned Use Right in a Presidential Reserve Suite(s) totals less than 1,000,000 CLUB WYNDHAM Plus points, Member will no longer be eligible to receive benefits under the Presidential Reserve program. Benefits shall be limited to Advance Reservation Priority (ARP) bookings in a Presidential Reserve Suite(s) at Member’s “home” resort from 14 to 12 months prior to check-in date, and benefits available to Member under the CLUB WYNDHAM Plus program based upon the number of points owned. Any such reservations made during the ARP window may not exceed the total point value of the Member’s Presidential Reserve ownership interest or Assigned Use Right in a Presidential Reserve Suite(s). Such CLUB WYNDHAM® Presidential Reserve 233 Members will no longer be eligible to receive the following Presidential Reserve Member benefits: (i) exclusive access to available Presidential Reserve Suites at resorts other than their “home” resort from 12 to 10 months prior to the check-in date; (ii) access to the Privileged Reserve Period for Presidential Reserve Suites from 10 months to 1 month prior to the check-in date; (iii) exchange privileges through The Registry Collection®; and (iv) such other benefits that may be added to the Presidential Reserve program from time to time. Member’s VIP ownership level will be dependent upon the total number of points owned that meet the eligibility requirements for the VIP program. Such Members will continue to pay maintenance fees in accordance with the governing documents of their “home” resort and program fees associated with the CLUB WYNDHAM Plus program. *“Immediate Relative” currently includes parents, spouses, domestic partners, siblings, children and grandchildren.

So, it seems the only certainty in the Presidential Reserve program is ARP in PR units, everything else is subject to Wyndham's whim. Is that your read of it?

 

[Jimag]

In other words, resale of a 1,000,000 point PR deed or contract conveys ARP rights in PR units and no other PR benefits?

 

[wjappraise]

The prior directory stated specifically that purchase of an existing PR contract from a non- "immediate Relative" via resale would retain PR benefits except for Exchange and Concierge via the Registry Collection and VIP benefits.

As I read the new directory, The new list of excluded benefits is a HUGE impact on those of us who either have purchased or are looking to purchase resale PR contracts. Specifically, it does not allow the ARP to extend to other PR resorts at the 12 month mark. I have been able to use my resale PR contract to reserve PR units at other resorts starting at the twelve month mark. That right of ownership appears to have been unilaterally removed. Sad day.

 

[wjappraise]

In other words, resale of a 1,000,000 point PR deed or contract conveys ARP rights in PR units and no other PR benefits?

That is the way I am reading it. I dearly hope I am wrong.

 

[Jimag]

That is the way I am reading it. I dearly hope I am wrong.

I think ARP at the home property is a deeded PR right and everything else is like a VIP/administrative benefit for PR owners and like VIP benefits they are subject to being modified by Wyndham at will. Correct me, if I am wrong.

 

[CCdad]

The prior directory stated specifically that purchase of an existing PR contract from a non- "immediate Relative" via resale would retain PR benefits except for Exchange and Concierge via the Registry Collection and VIP benefits.

As I read the new directory, The new list of excluded benefits is a HUGE impact on those of us who either have purchased or are looking to purchase resale PR contracts. Specifically, it does not allow the ARP to extend to other PR resorts at the 12 month mark. I have been able to use my resale PR contract to reserve PR units at other resorts starting at the twelve month mark. That right of ownership appears to have been unilaterally removed. Sad day.

You also risk that from 10-12 months any other developer purchased PR owner can use the Guaranteed Access Period to book up the remaining PR units at your "resale" acquired home resort.

 

[wjappraise]

Wow, that drops PR contracts value down to the same level as non-PR contracts, at least in my opinion.

 

[Richelle]

I think ARP at the home property is a deeded PR right and everything else is like a VIP/administrative benefit for PR owners and like VIP benefits they are subject to being modified by Wyndham at will. Correct me, if I am wrong.

Theoretically, couldn’t they take away the ability to use those PR points at any other resort regardless of the reservation window? The points are deeded property to a resort.

 

[wjappraise]

Theoretically, couldn’t they take away the ability to use those PR points at any other resort regardless of the reservation window? The points are deeded property to a resort.

That is essentially what they have done.

 

[CCdad]

Theoretically, couldn’t they take away the ability to use those PR points at any other resort regardless of the reservation window? The points are deeded property to a resort.

I don't think so, but I'd like to read a recent PR developer contract to be sure. My understanding is that the inventory designated as PR is still part of Club Wyndham Plus Program and the usage rights in the inventory pursuant to the trust agreement allows for the cross booking of the respective inventories set aside for each of the respective owners.

To the extent all future contracts make reference to usage rights being subject to the rules published in the Member's directory, then they can change whatever they want.

 

[Richelle]

That is essentially what they have done.

No, they can currently use them for PR inventory at other resorts for now in the standard reservation window for PR.

 

[wjappraise]

No, they can currently use them for PR inventory at other resorts for now in the standard reservation window for PR.

Not anymore. . . According to the new directory one of the PR rights surrendered now upon resale is "access to the Privileged Reserve Period for Presidential Reserve Suites from 10 months to 1 month prior to the check-in date." That means I cannot use them for PR inventory at other resorts until 30 days prior to check in. . . huge loss to a resale PR owner/buyer.

 

[Richelle]

I don't think so, but I'd like to read a recent PR developer contract to be sure. My understanding is that the inventory designated as PR is still part of Club Wyndham Plus Program and the usage rights in the inventory pursuant to the trust agreement allows for the cross booking of the respective inventories set aside for each of the respective owners.

To the extent all future contracts make reference to usage rights being subject to the rules published in the Member's directory, then they can change whatever they want.

Trust rules can be changed. I know there are laws that govern what can be changed and how. I just don’t know what they can, or cannot do. My point is, they can still do things to further reduce the value of PR resale. Furthermore, they could potentially do the same with regular resale contracts to. Take away the ability to exchange their points to book other resorts. They cannot take away ARP, but I don’t doubt that they could make things a lot more difficult for all of us. I’m not trying to adopt a “Stop complaining, it could be worse”
attitude. I’m legitimately asking if they can do it. As I mentioned, trust laws can be changed, but what can they not take away and why. I don’t know that we can answer that without a contract and/or real estate lawyer.

 

[Richelle]

Not anymore. . . According to the new directory one of the PR rights surrendered now upon resale is "access to the Privileged Reserve Period for Presidential Reserve Suites from 10 months to 1 month prior to the check-in date." That means I cannot use them for PR inventory at other resorts until 30 days prior to check in. . . huge loss to a resale PR owner/buyer.

Would you mind checking if you can? I don’t doubt you. I am just curious if they are actually enforcing that now or if their system is not set up to deny you that ability.

 

[wjappraise]

Would you mind checking if you can? I don’t doubt you. I am just curious if they are actually enforcing that now or if their system is not set up to deny you that ability.

I will PM you.

 

[CCdad]

Trust rules can be changed. I know there are laws that govern what can be changed and how. I just don’t know what they can, or cannot do. My point is, they can still do things to further reduce the value of PR resale. Furthermore, they could potentially do the same with regular resale contracts to. Take away the ability to exchange their points to book other resorts. They cannot take away ARP, but I don’t doubt that they could make things a lot more difficult for all of us. I’m not trying to adopt a “Stop complaining, it could be worse”
attitude. I’m legitimately asking if they can do it. As I mentioned, trust laws can be changed, but what can they not take away and why. I don’t know that we can answer that without a contract and/or real estate lawyer.

I agree that trust rules can change.

But the whole Club Wyndham Plus Program is built on the rule "today" - that from 10 months to 1 day in advance, all Club Wyndham Plus Program available inventory except "Privileged Reservation Period" PR units can be cross booked by any other Wyndham points owner. Take that rule away and the system will eventually collapse. Many deeded rights will be worthless unless the "all points are equal at 10 months" out rule is maintained.

 

[CO skier]

They cannot take away ARP,

Advance Reservation Priority (ARP) is a Club Guideline. I do not think it is a deeded right (check your deed(s) and the referenced documents for any mention of ARP). Wyndham must intend to maintain ARP for UDI memberships, because they created Club Wyndham Access as an alternative that has 13 month ARP at most all resorts rather than just declare 13 month ARP for all memberships at all resorts.

There are many things that some people think are deeded rights with a Club Wyndham ownership that are only Club Guidelines. Check the deeds and referenced documents versus the Club Guidelines.

 

[Richelle]

Advance Reservation Priority (ARP) is a Club Guideline. I do not think it is a deeded right (check your deed(s) and the referenced documents for any mention of ARP). Wyndham must intend to maintain ARP for UDI memberships, because they created Club Wyndham Access as an alternative that has 13 month ARP at most all resorts rather than just declare 13 month ARP for all memberships at all resorts.

There are many things that some people think are deeded rights with a Club Wyndham ownership that are only Club Guidelines. Check the deeds and referenced documents versus the Club Guidelines.

The points you own are tied to inventory at the resort you own. It’s actual real estate. They cannot take away your right to use it. My deed states my points are assigned to units number and list each unit number. With that said, they can limit you to booking just those units and not all of them.

 

[Richelle]

I agree that trust rules can change.

But the whole Club Wyndham Plus Program is built on the rule "today" - that from 10 months to 1 day in advance, all Club Wyndham Plus Program available inventory except "Privileged Reservation Period" PR units can be cross booked by any other Wyndham points owner. Take that rule away and the system will eventually collapse. Many deeded rights will be worthless unless the "all points are equal at 10 months" out rule is maintained.

I agree it would be a very bad move on Wyndham’s part to take away exchange rights for resale contracts in an effort to force people to buy retail if they want exchange rights. A lot of people who buy in, cannot afford or refuse to buy something for 10’a of thousands of dollars. Sure, some may change their mind if they have no other options, but others would just move to a different timeshare system.

 

[Jimag]

Theoretically, couldn’t they take away the ability to use those PR points at any other resort regardless of the reservation window? The points are deeded property to a resort.

I have no doubt that it would be Wyndham's position that they could take away resale PR exchange rights because they are programmatic benefits not deeded rights, however, I think a good argument may be made that deeded rights to occupy PR units imply full rights to participate in any program Wyndham establishes for PR owners without regard to whether ownership is direct or resale. Moreover, CCdad and Richelle raise an even better argument that it is not in Wyndham's interest to diminish the value of PR ownership. This makes the language in the new directory hard to understand from any perspective.