TUG MEMBERS: Joining TUG does not automatically register you as a user of the TUG Bulletin Board. You must register yourself.


*ads are disabled when logged in as a member*
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. The TUGBBS forums are completely free and open to the public and exist as the absolute best place for owners to get help and advice about their timeshares for more than 25 years!

    Join tens of thousands of other owners just like you here to get any and all Timeshare questions answered!
    Dismiss Notice
  3. TUG has now saved timeshare owners more than $12,000,000 dollars just by finding us in time to rescind a new Timeshare purchase! A truly incredible milestone!

    Read more here: TUG saves owners more than $12Million dollars
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Sign up to get the TUG Newsletter for free! Join tens of thousands of other owners who get this every week! Latest resort reviews and the most important topics discussed by owners during the week!
    Dismiss Notice
  5. TUG is trying out a new program that will trade you a TUG membership for a Timeshare resort review if you are an expired member, or even just a guest here on the forums!

    Read more here
    Dismiss Notice
  6. Our official "end my sales presentation early" T-shirts are available again! Also come with the option for a free membership extension with purchase to offset the cost!

    Read more Here
    Dismiss Notice
  7. Follow the TUG Member Banner as it travels the world on vacation with Timeshare owners! Also sign up to get the banner sent to you so you can submit a photo of your vacation with the banner to share with TUG! Banner Thread
    Dismiss Notice
  8. TUG has now joined Priceline.com as an affiliate!

    Members and guests who book air travel, rental cars and even Cruise Vacations thru TUG's priceline links will now support TUG in the process!

    Read more here
  9. A few of the most common links here on the forums for newbies and guests!
    Dismiss Notice

Sometimes it's better to buy from the brand [says Timeshare Salesman]

Discussion in 'Buying, Selling & Renting Timeshares' started by maxpot46, Feb 2, 2019.

  1. CalGalTraveler

    CalGalTraveler TUG Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2014
    Messages:
    3,293
    Likes Received:
    1,910
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    California
    Good point. 20 years is too long a horizon for payback if you are approaching your 60s and beyond. Although everyone hopes to be going strong by the time they hit their 80s, there are too many variables including health and paying for retirement care. 5 - 10 years would be a safer planning horizon.

    This is another reason resales make sense. Less capital = Faster payback. And if one should (er) kick the bucket, your heirs are not legally required to take it and it can be surrendered right back to the HOA for free. How's that for a guaranteed exit plan?
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
  2. maxpot46

    maxpot46 Guest

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2018
    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    8
    By your argument, I'd be justified in claiming that rents were very high so as to compare apples-to-apples with my premium product. A valuation of $220/night + taxes is fair.
     
  3. maxpot46

    maxpot46 Guest

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2018
    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    8
    I'm afraid that I won't share the forum post, as it specifies my company, and I'd prefer to leave that to speculation.

    One interesting thing I've discovered is that our price points aren't tremendously higher than the industry average, when pro-rated. We're even lower on certain packages, as some offer tremendous value on maintenance vs. nights received, and the retained equity value is the highest in the industry.

    I agree with your solution, which seems pretty reasonable and wise to me. Unfortunately, my company isn't in the habit of consulting with me on how to run their business. Perhaps one day, as I see a lot of things which could be optimized.

    I read TUG every day and have done so for months. It's a tremendously useful resource. I lack the power to make any useful changes, unfortunately, and don't care to talk business strategy with my superiors because they already perceive me as a know-it-all who dismisses their advice and does things the "wrong" way.
     
  4. maxpot46

    maxpot46 Guest

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2018
    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Yes, I would never sell anything that rips off my customers. That's why I invested the time to create accurate spreadsheets the proves the value proposition that we offer.
     
  5. CalGalTraveler

    CalGalTraveler TUG Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2014
    Messages:
    3,293
    Likes Received:
    1,910
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    California
    IMHO...I believe his analysis is comparing to NYC rates for premium hotel rooms and penthouse suites since that is where he sells. By that standard, that's a conservative estimate.
     
  6. maxpot46

    maxpot46 Guest

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2018
    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Thanks, that's a very nice thing to say! We seem to have similar philosophies regarding sales.

    One thing I've learned as an economist is that location and status DO have economic value that people are willing to pay for. And as long as the price offered is below what they would be willing to pay (not necessarily the market price, there are many people along the demand curve that would pay more than that), they will pull the trigger because researching for the very best price takes time and effort, which have an opportunity cost that often exceeds the value gained.
     
  7. maxpot46

    maxpot46 Guest

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2018
    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Interesting, 21% of first time buyers do so on their SECOND or greater presentation, and 22% with NO presentation at all. I presume they had time to research. The products DO offer value, and many people have an aversion to buying second hand.

    upload_2019-2-5_18-1-2.png
     
  8. bluehende

    bluehende TUG Review Crew: Veteran TUG Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2005
    Messages:
    1,542
    Likes Received:
    1,395
    Trophy Points:
    373
    I was referring to you using the average selling price of a timeshare for all your lost opportunity costs. Me thinks you are selling timeshares for a bit more than that. Of course you could give us info and we would know. I notice you always go to the average valuation for a night. Are you not selling Ferrari's as you claim or are you selling those garbage heaps.

    I will give an example

    You are selling 50k timeshares (Ferrari's). Amortize that over 20 yrs with even given you could get half back (very debatable) and you get 1250 a year. Now the lost opportunity cost of that money is 5%. If your financial advisor is only averaging 5% over 20 yrs he should be fired and with it being capital gains you can ignore taxes as a lot of us have a zero rate on long term capital gains. If you want to include taxes then I will use an 8% average which is the average return on the s&p. So that is another 2500 a year. Now add 2000+ in maintenance fees. Now we are up to 5750 a year. That is one expensive week. I will note that I have given the absolute best case scenario here and ignored increases in maintenance fees. And of course the never ending fees tacked on have been ignored.

    Now give your numbers.
     
  9. maxpot46

    maxpot46 Guest

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2018
    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    8
    One of the things that shocked me was how bad the training was, for such a prestigious brand. I definitely repeated things I was told at the beginning that were wrong.
     
  10. maxpot46

    maxpot46 Guest

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2018
    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    8
    I held a sexy consulting position at a major firm for 3 years, and the incredibly long hours for relatively low pay were terrible. Constant travel and corporate BS like facetime. Plus, if you think the product is terrible in timeshare, you don't know the consulting biz.

    That seems incredible given that the average hotel ADR in the US is $140/night for a studio.
     
    T-Dot-Traveller likes this.
  11. Panina

    Panina TUG Review Crew: Elite TUG Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2015
    Messages:
    3,935
    Likes Received:
    4,230
    Trophy Points:
    298
    Location:
    USA
    Resorts Owned:
    Hgvc Eagles Nest, Hgvc Surf Club, Hgvc Indian River, Hgvc Anderson, Sunrise Bay & Club, Chetola, Gulf Tides, Jade Tree Cove, Banyan Resort, Blue Ridge Village
    I appreciate different opinions even if mine are different. Everyone has a right to state what they believe without being called names or belittled.

    I hope you stick around and learn from us. I will hope that the knowledge you learn on TUG will grow and you will use it to give presentations that a tugger would say, he is not the average timeshare salesperson, he was ok. Maybe in time you might even venture into timeshare resales and work on your own and find a niche through your creativity.
     
    jimkin, bizaro86 and CalGalTraveler like this.
  12. maxpot46

    maxpot46 Guest

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2018
    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    8
    I am actually comparing to nationwide averages, which show that the average price is $140/night for a studio. NYC has a very high ADR for a studio, around $350/night in Manhattan.
     
  13. maxpot46

    maxpot46 Guest

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2018
    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    8
    No thanks, I could be fired for listing company specifics, which is strictly prohibited. I see no need to take on risks in an internet discussion, so you'll just have to take me at my word that we have programs that prorate to approximately equal to the national average.
     
  14. maxpot46

    maxpot46 Guest

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2018
    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    8
    I do have a financial analysis that compares owning to investing in a vacation fund, and the latter loses. People forget certain factors, like the capital gains tax, the fact that withdrawing the interest to pay for vacations means no compounding of the investment, that the investment suffers depreciation due to inflation, and that the capital gains pay for fewer accommodations every year due to inflation.
     
  15. CalGalTraveler

    CalGalTraveler TUG Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2014
    Messages:
    3,293
    Likes Received:
    1,910
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    California
    IMO, I would like to see the big timeshare brands create robust resale divisions similar to an auto dealer that has certified resales. We have talked many times on TUG where there is a need in the industry for a CarMax or Carvana-like safe and easy resale TS sales channel.

    It would be relatively simple to avoid cannibalizing new sales because we can see today how there is a significant delay between the new properties/point programs and the older resale weeks properties. This is akin to those who demand a new car (latest property) and those who buy less expensive resale cars (older resorts).

    Financing by the brands would be offered too. Low risk for the brands because they already have in-house financing and if the buyer defaults, it is no big deal to take it back and resell again.
    One reason TS resale prices are depressed is that the average American cannot come up with $5000+ cash to pay for a resale; financing is almost non-existent with the exception of Disney.

    This would boost resale market liquidity, and provide yet another revenue stream for the brand via financing.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
    jimkin, Iggyearl and Panina like this.
  16. bluehende

    bluehende TUG Review Crew: Veteran TUG Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2005
    Messages:
    1,542
    Likes Received:
    1,395
    Trophy Points:
    373
    You are a good salesman. You ignored everything I said and went back to your talking points. If you want to add inflation you will see I did not compound interest in my example of opportunity costs and I did not add average MF gains. Kind of did not mention that did you. Is that in your analysis you have and will not show us.

    Like I said. Now I use 8% for my gains over twenty years. That is the average and I will add my tax rate which is zero but may go to 10 as I age so we will say 5. Now your 5750 week is now 7175. Over 1000 a night. I think you will need to be selling private jets instead of ferraris to match that number.

    Since I assume you show that to your customers and we are all potential customers why would you not show it to us. Your company objects to more customers????
     
  17. bluehende

    bluehende TUG Review Crew: Veteran TUG Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2005
    Messages:
    1,542
    Likes Received:
    1,395
    Trophy Points:
    373
    nope
     
  18. breezez

    breezez TUG Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2015
    Messages:
    1,019
    Likes Received:
    688
    Trophy Points:
    174
    Location:
    Dover, FL
    Resorts Owned:
    WorldMark 39K
    Wyndham 406K
    RCI Points 196K
    Hyatt Pinon Pointe
    Hyatt Coconut Plantation
    Let me point out that the capital gains loss you will have on the TS is disallowed by IRS as a write off. Hmmm. Does this mean IRS also knows they are basically worthless.
     
  19. breezez

    breezez TUG Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2015
    Messages:
    1,019
    Likes Received:
    688
    Trophy Points:
    174
    Location:
    Dover, FL
    Resorts Owned:
    WorldMark 39K
    Wyndham 406K
    RCI Points 196K
    Hyatt Pinon Pointe
    Hyatt Coconut Plantation
    How many of your customers have you called back a year into there ownership to see how they were doing and how the package you sold is working out for them?

    I was a recruiter for years I always called back people I had placed to see how they were doing and pump for referrals.

    Come to think of it even my realtor follows up with me at least once a year.

    Since you seem to have a lot of stats most you say you got from ARDA, what amount of new Timeshare Sales come from referrals? I only ask because most people I know that own a Timeshare are embarrassed to admit they own one. When I tell people I got about 12-15 weeks a year worth they think I’m nuts.
     
  20. breezez

    breezez TUG Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2015
    Messages:
    1,019
    Likes Received:
    688
    Trophy Points:
    174
    Location:
    Dover, FL
    Resorts Owned:
    WorldMark 39K
    Wyndham 406K
    RCI Points 196K
    Hyatt Pinon Pointe
    Hyatt Coconut Plantation
    All timeshares are used ;). Even Developer ones mostly have been stayed in.
     
    KarenP likes this.
  21. Sapper

    Sapper Tug Review Crew: Rookie TUG Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2016
    Messages:
    754
    Likes Received:
    408
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Thank you for the education.
     
  22. davidvel

    davidvel TUG Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2008
    Messages:
    3,269
    Likes Received:
    759
    Trophy Points:
    348
    Location:
    No. Cty. San Diego
    Resorts Owned:
    Marriott Shadow Ridge (Villages)
    Yes, it's pretty clear that "Bill" attended Columbia, where he received his B.A. in Economics, and now works in sales for HGVC.

    So purely for fun, maybe those more versed in HGVC developer sales can post the numbers to test his theory: product, purchase cost, MF, usual incentives, etc. vs. the same thing resale. Now, at least, we have something to chew on.
     
    paxsarah likes this.
  23. breezez

    breezez TUG Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2015
    Messages:
    1,019
    Likes Received:
    688
    Trophy Points:
    174
    Location:
    Dover, FL
    Resorts Owned:
    WorldMark 39K
    Wyndham 406K
    RCI Points 196K
    Hyatt Pinon Pointe
    Hyatt Coconut Plantation
    Here you go with out compounding interest. I used your numbers $22K for average initial purchase and while I don't agree at all the developer willing to buy back at 50% initial purchase price. I did not compound annual interest in the end the renter is way better off than the developer buyer. Remember the renter will still have $22K in the bank while the Buyer under your scenario would get $11K Back.
     

    Attached Files:

    bluehende likes this.
  24. DannyTS

    DannyTS TUG Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2018
    Messages:
    1,839
    Likes Received:
    627
    Trophy Points:
    173
    the 50% is just silly. Not only that it is not the average, we do not even know if that ever happens. Any analysis based on such weak foundation is ludicrous. Your spreadsheets are worth nothing IMO and, as long as they are built on sand, your selling is not ethically superior in any way to those that sell based on emotions. To the contrary.

    this is the ROFR list for NY. How much is the developer list price for that last 2 bedroom platinum contract?

    As I commented before, it was a mistake to start this conversation. You will not even be able to claim ignorance in the future.

    upload_2019-2-5_20-14-30.png
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
  25. chapjim

    chapjim TUG Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2010
    Messages:
    2,742
    Likes Received:
    940
    Trophy Points:
    249
    Location:
    Fairfax County, Virginia
    Resorts Owned:
    Wyndham PresRes, Quarter House (4), Resort on Cocoa Beach (4), some others.
    A little off-topic, don't you think?
     

Share This Page