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something wrong with our dog

heathpack

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Me too, though we do have a 16 year old cat. Do cats go through this too?

Not really.

But brain tumors are really really common in cats and cause similar signs. The most common type of brain tumor in a cat is benign, meaning that in theory that cat can be cured with surgery. (In reality the tumors are often not discovered until they are so large as to be inoperable).
 

Glynda

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Brewster Green (two weeks).
We had an eleven year old (big dog) who developed Canine Cognitive Dysfunction. Our Veterinarian recommended a supplement called Neutricks, for Canine Cognitive Dysfunction. It took six weeks to build up a decent level, and once he did, our dog was back to himself, 100% (on Neutricks). We found the best price for Neutricks at Countryside Pet Supply of West Plains, MO.

Our dog stayed on Neutricks for 18 months, until his death, and had a great quality of life on Neutricks. The Neutricks really worked, and has credible science and veterinary medicine to support it.

I am not a Veterinarian, but what you describe sounds familiar. I don't know that I'd give a Hemp product with Neutricks. I guess, I'd really like to know what I was treating. In your dog's case, it sounds very similar to our dog's Canine Cognitive Dysfunction.

Neutricks web site states that "Unfortunately, Neutricks has been indefinitely back ordered." I didn't find any sites that has stock.
 

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IF you want to try the MCT's, but don't want the expense/difficulty of finding the Rx Purina food, you can always feed a high-quality (I suggest grain free) food and purchase MCT oil to add.

We had a lab with seizures and a Rottie with cancer. After researching the quality and ingredient source(s) for much of the Rx food, we decided to avoid them. They are expensive, but typically have very suspicious origins. Especially anything produced by SOME manufacturers. I won't give names, because I haven't researched it in a few years, but you can use Google and make your own opinions.

In the end--and I really hate to admit this--my wife added herbal supplements prescribed by our Vet. Some were Chinese (yes, please don't make the obvious joke after reading the paragraph above) and were incredibly effective. Same for a bout with tick-borne disease in our current Rottie.

You can't make this stuff up.
 

presley

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I'm sorry that you are going through this. I am friends with a dog who has dementia and I only see him when he is up and about but the stories I hear from his caregiver are very sad. I guess he has a 3 hour episode of yelping every late afternoon and he paces during the night.

Heathpack is the ultimate expert around here, so I would check out everything she has already said. I just wanted to add a possible suggestion for the stomach gurgling since one of my dogs used to have that. My vet suggested giving some food late at night. She suggested applesauce, but I've been giving something to chew on for a while like a fish skin or a tendon. That way, my dog gets some satisfaction of chewing for a long while before bedtime. It has completely resolved the stomach gurgling. My dog doesn't have Canine Cognitive Dysfunction, though, so if that is what is causing it, eating late might not make any difference.
 

jackio

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Thank you everyone for taking the time to give me the good suggestions. I really appreciate it.
 

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IF you want to try the MCT's, but don't want the expense/difficulty of finding the Rx Purina food, you can always feed a high-quality (I suggest grain free) food and purchase MCT oil to add.

We had a lab with seizures and a Rottie with cancer. After researching the quality and ingredient source(s) for much of the Rx food, we decided to avoid them. They are expensive, but typically have very suspicious origins. Especially anything produced by SOME manufacturers. I won't give names, because I haven't researched it in a few years, but you can use Google and make your own opinions.

In the end--and I really hate to admit this--my wife added herbal supplements prescribed by our Vet. Some were Chinese (yes, please don't make the obvious joke after reading the paragraph above) and were incredibly effective. Same for a bout with tick-borne disease in our current Rottie.

You can't make this stuff up.

May I suggest that you read the attached about grain-free dog food. Tufts University Veterinary Nutritionists are amongst the most respected Veterinary Nutritionists in the country, and they are expert in grain-free food induced low taurine levels and Dilated Cardiomyopathy.

Also, if you are interested in pet nutrition, the Tufts Veterinary Nutritionists publish a superb (free!) blog, and will send you email when they publish something useful. The blog/website is called "Petfoodology," and it is published by the Clinical Nutrition Service at Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine at Tufts University.

You can sign up for complimentary, Petfoodology email, here (top right side of the page):

http://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/petfoodology/
 

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  • A broken heart- Risk of heart disease in boutique or grain-free diets and exotic ingredients.pdf
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jackio

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May I suggest that you read the attached about grain-free dog food. Tufts University Veterinary Nutritionists are amongst the most respected Veterinary Nutritionists in the country, and they are expert in grain-free food induced low taurine levels and Dilated Cardiomyopathy.

Also, if you are interested in pet nutrition, the Tufts Veterinary Nutritionists publish a superb (free!) blog, and will send you email when they publish something useful. The blog/website is called "Petfoodology," and it is published by the Clinical Nutrition Service at Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine at Tufts University.
Thank you!
 

WBP

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Neutricks web site states that "Unfortunately, Neutricks has been indefinitely back ordered." I didn't find any sites that has stock.

I was shocked to read this. It's been more than a hour since our elder statesman dog with Canine Cognitive Dysfunction died, so we've not shopped for Neutricks for that long. I'm mind-boggled by this, as many Veterinarians that I know, were suggesting to their Pet Owners that they give their pets with Canine Cognitive Dysfunction, Neutricks. Neutricks, unlike the Snake Oil (supplement) Potions, out there, in the multi-Billion dollar business of pet supplements (with little to no credible science to support them), had sound, credible science to support it.

I tried to email the President of Neutricks, last night, and both email bounced back (not a good sign). I sent him a text message to his phone, I'll see if that generates a reply.
 

taterhed

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May I suggest that you read the attached about grain-free dog food. Tufts University Veterinary Nutritionists are amongst the most respected Veterinary Nutritionists in the country, and they are expert in grain-free food induced low taurine levels and Dilated Cardiomyopathy.

Also, if you are interested in pet nutrition, the Tufts Veterinary Nutritionists publish a superb (free!) blog, and will send you email when they publish something useful. The blog/website is called "Petfoodology," and it is published by the Clinical Nutrition Service at Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine at Tufts University.

You can sign up for complimentary, Petfoodology email, here (top right side of the page):

http://vetnutrition.tufts.edu/petfoodology/

Thanks for the article. It seems like a good scholarly text, but I have some real concerns with way they present the information and their recommendations.

Personally, I suggest you do educate yourselves, talk to your vet and be suspicious about anyone who tells you to 'trust big industry.'
That goes for timeshares, investing, food and just about anything else.

We DO feed a 'grain free' diet; meaning no corn or wheat.
We use a relatively 'main stream' manufacturer that has had no serious recall history
We supplement with cooked meat (raw is to difficult to remain sanitary) and this includes organ meat
We blend 'flavors' of kibble to reduce the risk of formulaic contamination and batch contamination
We supplement our dogs diets with fish oil, additional glucosamine and chondoitin and vit c/d-mannose cranberry for one (UTI's)

First, the conclusion that pet owners should "... stop reading the ingredient list!" and "be careful about currently available pet food rating websites" and "The best way to select what is really the best food for your pet is to ensure the manufacturer has excellent nutritional expertise and rigorous quality control standards" is pretty much an advertisement for the largest mainstream pet food manufacturers. This is something I have a real problem with---these are the people that got us where we were 20 years ago. So, we should just buy 'regular' dog food from the biggest manufacturers and quit reading the labels or trying the discern the best brands? Hogwash.

Second, what pushed the pet food industry into the gutter (the slaughterhouse and cereal factory gutter) was the never-ending search for profit and volume over quality and health. The claim about 'don't read the label...' is true in some aspects: Manufacturers crack or split the ingredients on the labels for marketing purposes. "The first three ingredients are meat!" is such an example. Yes, meat, meat by-products and meat-meal are all 'meat.' But, that doesn't tell you much. Part of the problem is that meat-meal (beef-meal, turkey-meal etc..) is composed of the wide range of ingredients that can be boiled, pulled, pulverized, ground or liquefied from an animal carcass. This includes all parts of the animal...including many parts that we won't talk about. In order to sterilize this material and render it suitable for food, the meal is exposed to very high temperatures to sterilize it. This process removes taurine and the precursors for taurine. Effectively, the 'meat' is now deficient for the dog/cat diet. As noted below, other forms of meat (lamb and others are also naturally now) can not provide enough taurine or precursors.

Finally, some things that were mysteriously absent from the article above. I didn't see any discussion of the correlation between high-fiber ingredients (beet pulp for one) and taurine insufficiency. It's a ongoing research subject, but appears to have significant relevance to the issue discussed. Next, the author says, and I quote "...grains do not contribute to any health problems and are used in pet food as a nutritious source of protein, vitamins, and minerals." Ok, I'll buy that. But, let me ask you this? Do the major pet-food manufacturers use 'grains' in their pet food, or do they use grain by-products procured cheaply from the waste products of human food manufacturing? Ding Ding. The by-products of High Fructose Corn Syrup (HFCS) are widely used as 'grains' in pet food. Ditto for the by-products of cereal manufacturing and more. These products have very little food value and are NOT a source of high quality protein for pets. They do raise the overall protein analysis on the ingredients label. They do not contain taurine or the precursors. Also, some of these 'grains' have been procured from very dubious sources (foreign) and have contained contaminants and poisons. Remember the Chinese melamine baby food incident? It's been found in pet food as well.

I agree. Improper diets are bad for pets. Small pet-food manufacturers should be carefully researched before use. Fad diets are bad (for anyone). But really, use your brain when feeding your pet. Below is an excerpt from a pet food site. It is designed to encourage you to buy their food....but the facts are there.

Why NOT to feed 'grocery store' pet food....

The answer lies in a part of the history of pet food that the big manufacturers don’t want you to know.

Before WWII, more than 90% of commercial pet food came in cans, and contained mostly meat. However, metal was needed for the military, and by the time the war ended, 85% of pet food was dry kibble. It still contained a good amount of meat, and this is what prevented taurine deficiencies from occurring.

The primary machinery for producing what is familiar to us today as dry food is called an extruder; it was introduced in the 1950s. However, to get the right crunchy texture, the recipe called for a higher proportion of starch. This started the trend of ever-increasing quantities of cereal grain, such as corn, in dry foods. At the same time, meat processors were getting more proficient at getting more meat from livestock carcasses. Less meat was available (and what was available was getting more expensive), so pet food makers substituted other animal tissues leftover from slaughter, officially called “by-products.” Over time, the result was a high-grain, low-meat dry food, for which the profit margin was—conveniently—much higher than for canned food.

"Taurine is found primarily in muscle meat, and is completely absent in cereal grains. The lack of taurine in the diet caused serious eye and heart diseases to develop."

Unfortunately, cats were about to pay for the pet food companies’ profits with their lives. With virtually no muscle meat in even the premium dry foods of that period, cats eating that food were missing crucial taurine, and suffered the consequences of corporate greed as sickness, blindness, and death.

When studies fingering taurine deficiency as the cause of these ailments were published, pet food manufacturers hastened to supplement taurine in their diets. Curiously, because bacteria in the cat’s digestive system evidently prefer canned food to dry, they needed to put three times more taurine in canned food than dry. The problem disappeared, and everyone lived happily ever after…or did they?

Because dogs make their own taurine from other amino acids, it’s been thought that they didn’t need such supplements. But in the last few years, researchers have discovered that a few dogs evidently can’t supply their own taurine needs; at least not on a diet of cereal grains and by-products. Certain lines of spaniels, retrievers, and particularly Newfoundlands developed the same form of heart disease that was killing cats. Now, this disease is actually pretty common among dogs of all breeds, but what was interesting about these particular dogs was that supplementing taurine could reverse their heart disease. As it turned out, many of these dogs were eating lamb and rice dog foods. Lamb meat has a relatively low level of taurine compared to chicken, the most common pet food protein. (Beef, venison, and rabbit are also much lower in taurine than poultry.) Consequently, a few pet food makers have started to supplement taurine in some (but not all) their dry dog foods.

However, the basic reason remains the same for dogs as cats: there isn’t enough real meat in the food to sustain a meat-eating predator like a dog or cat. The vast majority of dry pet foods out there contain little or no real meat, but instead use cheaper substitutes like grain proteins (corn gluten, wheat gluten, soy protein), and by-products such as meat and bone meal.
 

WBP

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I was shocked to read this. It's been more than a hour since our elder statesman dog with Canine Cognitive Dysfunction died, so we've not shopped for Neutricks for that long. I'm mind-boggled by this, as many Veterinarians that I know, were suggesting to their Pet Owners that they give their pets with Canine Cognitive Dysfunction, Neutricks. Neutricks, unlike the Snake Oil (supplement) Potions, out there, in the multi-Billion dollar business of pet supplements (with little to no credible science to support them), had sound, credible science to support it.

I tried to email the President of Neutricks, last night, and both email bounced back (not a good sign). I sent a text message to his phone, I'll see if that generates a reply.

Our Veterinarian said that Neutricks are on back order, which, as you know, is what the Neutricks website says. I'm suspect though, as all of the email addresses that I had for Neutricks, including the email address for the President of the company, are bouncing back as undeliverable. Our Veterinarian (not offering any medical advice) said that he believes that Neutricks and (human) Prevagen are very similar; I don't know anything about the veterinary application of Prevagen, nor do I know anything about the dosing or contraindications. You might want to ask your Veterinarian about Prevagen. Again, our dog's improvement on Neutricks was dramatic - - just unbelievable; Neutricks took a dog who did not remember where his house was, and six weeks later, he knew where he lived, and made other dramatic improvements. I would have not thought it possible, as I am suspect of all supplements, and Snake Oil like potions. Our dog's Pain Medicine Specialist (a veterinary anesthesiologist), had a dog with Canine Cognitive Dysfunction; her dog responded favorably to Neutricks, as well.
 

WBP

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Thanks for the article. It seems like a good scholarly text, but I have some real concerns with way they present the information and their recommendations.

Personally, I suggest you do educate yourselves, talk to your vet and be suspicious about anyone who tells you to 'trust big industry.'
That goes for timeshares, investing, food and just about anything else.

We DO feed a 'grain free' diet; meaning no corn or wheat.
We use a relatively 'main stream' manufacturer that has had no serious recall history
We supplement with cooked meat (raw is to difficult to remain sanitary) and this includes organ meat
We blend 'flavors' of kibble to reduce the risk of formulaic contamination and batch contamination
We supplement our dogs diets with fish oil, additional glucosamine and chondoitin and vit c/d-mannose cranberry for one (UTI's)

First, the conclusion that pet owners should "... stop reading the ingredient list!" and "be careful about currently available pet food rating websites" and "The best way to select what is really the best food for your pet is to ensure the manufacturer has excellent nutritional expertise and rigorous quality control standards" is pretty much an advertisement for the largest mainstream pet food manufacturers. This is something I have a real problem with---these are the people that got us where we were 20 years ago. So, we should just buy 'regular' dog food from the biggest manufacturers and quit reading the labels or trying the discern the best brands? Hogwash.

Second, what pushed the pet food industry into the gutter (the slaughterhouse and cereal factory gutter) was the never-ending search for profit and volume over quality and health. The claim about 'don't read the label...' is true in some aspects: Manufacturers crack or split the ingredients on the labels for marketing purposes. "The first three ingredients are meat!" is such an example. Yes, meat, meat by-products and meat-meal are all 'meat.' But, that doesn't tell you much. Part of the problem is that meat-meal (beef-meal, turkey-meal etc..) is composed of the wide range of ingredients that can be boiled, pulled, pulverized, ground or liquefied from an animal carcass. This includes all parts of the animal...including many parts that we won't talk about. In order to sterilize this material and render it suitable for food, the meal is exposed to very high temperatures to sterilize it. This process removes taurine and the precursors for taurine. Effectively, the 'meat' is now deficient for the dog/cat diet. As noted below, other forms of meat (lamb and others are also naturally now) can not provide enough taurine or precursors.

Finally, some things that were mysteriously absent from the article above. I didn't see any discussion of the correlation between high-fiber ingredients (beet pulp for one) and taurine insufficiency. It's a ongoing research subject, but appears to have significant relevance to the issue discussed. Next, the author says, and I quote "...grains do not contribute to any health problems and are used in pet food as a nutritious source of protein, vitamins, and minerals." Ok, I'll buy that. But, let me ask you this? Do the major pet-food manufacturers use 'grains' in their pet food, or do they use grain by-products procured cheaply from the waste products of human food manufacturing? Ding Ding. The by-products of High Fructose Corn Syrup (HFCS) are widely used as 'grains' in pet food. Ditto for the by-products of cereal manufacturing and more. These products have very little food value and are NOT a source of high quality protein for pets. They do raise the overall protein analysis on the ingredients label. They do not contain taurine or the precursors. Also, some of these 'grains' have been procured from very dubious sources (foreign) and have contained contaminants and poisons. Remember the Chinese melamine baby food incident? It's been found in pet food as well.

I agree. Improper diets are bad for pets. Small pet-food manufacturers should be carefully researched before use. Fad diets are bad (for anyone). But really, use your brain when feeding your pet. Below is an excerpt from a pet food site. It is designed to encourage you to buy their food....but the facts are there.

Why NOT to feed 'grocery store' pet food....

The answer lies in a part of the history of pet food that the big manufacturers don’t want you to know.

Before WWII, more than 90% of commercial pet food came in cans, and contained mostly meat. However, metal was needed for the military, and by the time the war ended, 85% of pet food was dry kibble. It still contained a good amount of meat, and this is what prevented taurine deficiencies from occurring.

The primary machinery for producing what is familiar to us today as dry food is called an extruder; it was introduced in the 1950s. However, to get the right crunchy texture, the recipe called for a higher proportion of starch. This started the trend of ever-increasing quantities of cereal grain, such as corn, in dry foods. At the same time, meat processors were getting more proficient at getting more meat from livestock carcasses. Less meat was available (and what was available was getting more expensive), so pet food makers substituted other animal tissues leftover from slaughter, officially called “by-products.” Over time, the result was a high-grain, low-meat dry food, for which the profit margin was—conveniently—much higher than for canned food.

"Taurine is found primarily in muscle meat, and is completely absent in cereal grains. The lack of taurine in the diet caused serious eye and heart diseases to develop."

Unfortunately, cats were about to pay for the pet food companies’ profits with their lives. With virtually no muscle meat in even the premium dry foods of that period, cats eating that food were missing crucial taurine, and suffered the consequences of corporate greed as sickness, blindness, and death.

When studies fingering taurine deficiency as the cause of these ailments were published, pet food manufacturers hastened to supplement taurine in their diets. Curiously, because bacteria in the cat’s digestive system evidently prefer canned food to dry, they needed to put three times more taurine in canned food than dry. The problem disappeared, and everyone lived happily ever after…or did they?

Because dogs make their own taurine from other amino acids, it’s been thought that they didn’t need such supplements. But in the last few years, researchers have discovered that a few dogs evidently can’t supply their own taurine needs; at least not on a diet of cereal grains and by-products. Certain lines of spaniels, retrievers, and particularly Newfoundlands developed the same form of heart disease that was killing cats. Now, this disease is actually pretty common among dogs of all breeds, but what was interesting about these particular dogs was that supplementing taurine could reverse their heart disease. As it turned out, many of these dogs were eating lamb and rice dog foods. Lamb meat has a relatively low level of taurine compared to chicken, the most common pet food protein. (Beef, venison, and rabbit are also much lower in taurine than poultry.) Consequently, a few pet food makers have started to supplement taurine in some (but not all) their dry dog foods.

However, the basic reason remains the same for dogs as cats: there isn’t enough real meat in the food to sustain a meat-eating predator like a dog or cat. The vast majority of dry pet foods out there contain little or no real meat, but instead use cheaper substitutes like grain proteins (corn gluten, wheat gluten, soy protein), and by-products such as meat and bone meal.

I drew some of the very same conclusions that you did about Dr. Freeman's Petfoodology blog post. We've been feeding our dogs Orijen, Acana, and Fromm, grain-free formulas for years, thinking that we were doing the best that we could for our dogs, so I was startled by what I read in Dr. Freeman's blog post. However, prior to reading Dr. Freeman's blob post, I read many credible, peer-reviewed, scientific papers (occupying about 50 hours of my time), related to low taurine levels in dogs, and low taurine induced Cardiomyopathy, and I found that Dr. Freeman's writings corroborated the scholarly papers that I read. For 20 (prior) years, we avoided Pro Plan, at all expense, and now we are feeding our pack grain-inclusive Pro Plan. I conceded, when I was reminded that the three Veterinary Nutritionists at Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine at Tufts University, are amongst the most respected in their discipline; that swayed me to Pro Plan. Then, I talked to the leading Veterinary Cardiologist/Researcher in the country, on low taurine induced Cardiomyopathy, Joshua Stern, MD, PhD, and he enthusiastically supported Dr. Freeman, her work, and her conclusions.
 

taterhed

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Well, you can only do what you think is best.

We switched to grain-free due to allergies. Non of our animals have had cardio problems...of course we supplement with meat, so it's unlikely they could develop such problems. With all our dogs, it hasn't been cardio problems that cause illness.....
I appreciate the discussion.
 

presley

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http://www.retrieverpro.com/dogtraining-food-purinaproplaningredients/ That explains why ProPlan is not a good choice. Full disclosure: I work in the pet food industry and do not feed my dogs any form of kibble.

I've been told by my boss that over 80% of pet owners just follow blindly whatever marketing hype is out there regarding dog food. I suppose there are still many Americans who eat fortified cereal and take a multivitamin with their McDonald's lunch. It's really all the same.
 

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maybe it is age related, same experience with my 14 yr old dog.
 

taterhed

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http://www.retrieverpro.com/dogtraining-food-purinaproplaningredients/ That explains why ProPlan is not a good choice. Full disclosure: I work in the pet food industry and do not feed my dogs any form of kibble.

I've been told by my boss that over 80% of pet owners just follow blindly whatever marketing hype is out there regarding dog food. I suppose there are still many Americans who eat fortified cereal and take a multivitamin with their McDonald's lunch. It's really all the same.


Yup. I have serious issues with anyone that advises me: "feed your dogs corn gluten."
 

easyrider

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I think the pet food industry has brain washed pet owners into thinking their pets need many things that are not really natural but good for profits.

We feed Rex a cup of salmon or chicken along with 3 cups of Purina kibble. Rex is about 60 pounds and fit. The salmon is left over skin from filet that I steam. I also whole can fish or chicken in quart jars for Rex and us. Rex gets hind quarters we get breast and we both eat the canned fish. The pressure canned Rex food products are pretty tasty and occasionally are consumed by pantry raiders in sandwiches, soups, wraps , on a cracker or however.

I left Rex at my grand daughters house last winter and her boyfriends brother got into Rex's canned fish. When he was told that was Rex's food he said Rex is eating better than he is.

I do not feed Rex the chicken bones even though they are mushy soft.

Bill
 

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Dogs can benefit from being fed bones...but there are rules:
  • Raw bones OK
    • A beneficial source of protein, fat and trace minerals (calcium, chondroitin, glucosamine and more)
    • Dental hygiene benefits
    • NOT TOO BIG: large bones (legs and large cow bones) can fracture teeth and cause problems
    • Not too small: dogs may gulp small bones and suffer GI consequence. Chicken necks, wings, feet with meat attached...are fine.
    • Fresh bones...remove once spoiled or contaminated. Dog can handle bacteria...but can your family? (No)
  • NO COOKED BONES
    • cooked bones splinter
    • desiccated bones can be dangerous as well and have little nutrition
    • "soft" friable cooked bones (steam canning) ok in limited quantities
Research shows that dogs fed a consistent diet of raw foods have different GI conditions than dogs fed dry food. Careful about rapid diet swings.....
 

jackio

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Thank you, all of you, for your valuable suggestions. Our dog is doing a little better. She actually slept through the night the last 2 nights. We have always given her boiled chicken with her evening meal. I have since added it to her morning meal. She always eats the chicken in the morning, but doesn't always eat the dry food. We give her Pepcid in the morning and evening. I add the hemp oil to the evening meal. At 10 pm we give her 3 mg. of Melatonin. We give her the Xanax only if we have something important early the next day and it is necessary to get a good night's sleep. At 10 pm I also give her a little chicken and rice to hold her stomach over until the morning. All these things in conjunction seem to be working, and she has gained back one of the 2 pounds she lost.
 

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great news....
 

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Hi Jacki,

Thanks for giving us your good news about your dog and I hope that she will keep improving to how she was before.

It is so hard to see them suffer.
 

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Brewster Green (two weeks).
On a sadder note, we had to put our 15 1/2 year old Lizzie (my avatar) to sleep Thursday afternoon. Broke our hearts.
 

jackio

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On a sadder note, we had to put our 15 1/2 year old Lizzie (my avatar) to sleep Thursday afternoon. Broke our hearts.
I am so sorry. She was adorable. I’m sure she brought you much joy.
 
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