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[2018] Slim pickings on resale

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scootr5

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I have followed the commentary for a year, and there are two possibilities that I see, 1) the Wyndham IT department is as incompetent as some assert or 2) Wyndham intends to maintain a random and unpredictable VIP upgrade process.

Or 3) Wyndham maintains a random and unpredictable VIP upgrade process because the Wyndham IT department is as incompetent as some assert.
 

wjappraise

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Those are not my words; those are the words from someone at Wyndham. What do you think the phrase you quoted, "From Wyndham" means? Did you not open the link associated with the quote, so you do not know they are Wyndham’s words not mine? The fact is that Wyndham thought in 2017 that the VIP Unit Upgrade benefit is improved. Maybe they still do.


There are owners who were used to creating their own VIP upgrades. Attempts to imitate those upgrade paths are no longer predictable. Other VIP owners who did not know of the loophole, or did not spend hours online searching for upgrades, now receive some automatic upgrades with no effort on their part other than checking a box.

I have followed the commentary for a year, and there are two possibilities that I see, 1) the Wyndham IT department is as incompetent as some assert or 2) Wyndham intends to maintain a random and unpredictable VIP upgrade process.

It was your use of the word “fact,” coupled with your longstanding support of Wyndham practices that unilaterally remove rights of ownership, that results in your opinions being discredited. Add to that your open contempt for the most informative poster here, Ron Parise, and many of us question the accuracy and motivation for the posts.
 
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chapjim

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Perhaps.

But here are a couple of facts to share that weren't a few years ago

From Wyndham:

"VIP UPGRADE OPT-IN FEATURE

The VIP Unit Upgrade benefit is now improved! Save time and energy with our new opt-in feature and get back to the things that matter most.

When You confirm a reservation online, or with a Vacation Planning Guide, you can simply request that we search for your upgrade once the upgrade window opens."

http://pages.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/w...dham_plus_membersdirectory_supplement1718.pdf

<snip>

This is hardly a fact. It is spin, puffery, at best highly misleading.

It is true, I suppose, that we can request Wyndham to search for an upgrade when the upgrade window opens. The implication is that upgrades, when available, will occur on a regular, consistent basis. That is plain and simple not happening.
 

ecwinch

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[Mod reminder - while it would be a boring place to visit if everyone had the same opinion, I believe we can disagree without speculating that someone is a shill or a mole.]
 

Jan M.

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Nothing against Ron Parise, personally. I did not agree with his perspective regarding cancel/rebook in 2012 and years following or his trying to pass off stripped Wyndham contracts as bargains in 2015, or whenever it was. It should be noted that eventually Wyndham did not agree with his perspective regarding cancel/rebook -- never thought I would see the day -- and TUG did not agree with his idea of what is a bargain.

Through it all, I had the general impression he did enjoy the banter. Maybe it is just my perspective.

I will speak up in your defense because you did have a very legitimate reason to resent some VIP owners. Try to look at it from the perspective of what is probably 94-97 per cent of VIP owners who weren't making a business out of renting using the book, cancel, rebook, upgrade strategy or stripping deeds. They had years of being able to use book, cancel, rebook and upgrade successfully a good majority of the time. They were coached in how to do it by the sales people and in many cases even by the VC's for so many years that it felt like something they were entitled to be able to do as long as they didn't mind taking the chance of losing an occasional reservation. Some of them wouldn't have bought enough points to be at the VIP level they are at and many now feel cheated. And why wouldn't they? Again I will use a car analogy. It's like being told if you buy from us for $100k-$200k every year you will get a top of the line Lincoln Town car or Cadillac and all you have to pay is this annual maintenance fee. For years you get that car then one day they tell you from now on we aren't going to do that anymore even though we've told you repeatedly for years we would and we did. You should be grateful for the Ford Focus we are now going to give you because it is so much better than a Ford Escort. And we can get away with that because regardless of how often and to how many people it was said and by how many of our people it was said, it wasn't put in writing, only a verbal thing. But we still get to take your money every year. Then they tell you how much they care and value you and that if you want out of paying them the annual fees, well, they care so much that they will graciously allow you to walk away with nothing.

It is easier for me to be objective about this than many VIP owners because as I've stated in previous posts I very, very rarely did the book, cancel, rebook, upgrade. It invariably turned out that there was no need to do it because when the discount period came there were reservations available, that I had tied up those points needlessly and then had to worry about having cancelled points left at the end of the use year. I've told how flexible my husband's work schedule always was but it was really only flexible within a shorter time period, several months, not a year or even six months out. Also for many of the years we've owned when I was working we could never go during holiday times and summers. But other than that I had flexibility too. We got so spoiled with the resorts being quieter that we still prefer not going during those busy times. The 60 day window to get the discounts and upgrades was and still is ideal for our needs. It also helps that we don't need the larger units either. Sometimes it might have taken me a few days and once in a great while even a week or so to be able to put together the stays we wanted but I never had to say we couldn't go because I couldn't find or piece together a reservation. That is until this new website and the changes. It makes me feel resentful that I who used the system like it was intended am finding difficult to get reservations now. There is absolutely no reason that people like us who are happy with the one and two bedroom units at non peak times should be having this problem.

There is no doubt in any VIP owner's mind that Wyndham has devalued what we own. Every corrective action that Wyndham has taken over the years has been at the expense of the VIP owners and has failed. However what is really important to realize is that Wyndham failed to keep the sharks away from all of us, lower point owners, resale owners and VIP owners. And now it is very much looking like Wyndham has used all of us to become Megladon. Wyndham could always have prevented all of the abuses but they chose not to because it benefited them. Everything they do is ultimately for their benefit, anything that trickles down to us is the scraps thrown on the floor for the dogs spun by them to make it sound like a feast for a king. Divide and conquer is a very basic strategy. When we allow them to pit us against each other, low point developer owners, VIP owners, resale owners, it is important for all of us to keep in mind who really wins.
 
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Avislo

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Any inputs on the various Club Wyndham deeded contract sizes especially those under 154,000 points.
 

Avislo

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Wonder how mega renters want-a-bees are doing under the newly coined buy hold rent phrase?
 

ronparise

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Wonder how mega renters want-a-bees are doing under the newly coined buy hold rent phrase?

newly coined??

rear estate investors will tell you that there are two ways to invest
1) buy and hold... these investors will often look for a return on their investment until they sell. (hopefully at a profit) Some will rent their property others might grow corn or soy beans
2) buy and sell... (at a profit) you might call these guys "flippers"

I met a guy recently that worked what he called the the BRRR strategy Buy-Repair-Rent-Refinance-Repeat this is a variation of the buy hold strategy

These are not newly coined phrases as you suggest; these are tried and true real estate investment strategies.
 

CO skier

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Wyndham could always have prevented all of the abuses but they chose not to because it benefited them.
That may be true, but I doubt that is a fact – seems more like an opinion. If the VIP abuses benefited Wyndham, why did Wyndham do away with the VIP abuses through eliminating the Credit Pool and initiating the automatic VIP upgrades?
 

Avislo

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Thanks for the info on coined phrases.
 

ronparise

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That may be true, but I doubt that is a fact – seems more like an opinion. If the VIP abuses benefited Wyndham, why did Wyndham do away with the VIP abuses through eliminating the Credit Pool and initiating the automatic VIP upgrades?

You are absolutely right the so called abuses neither helped or hurt Wyndham (unless what we were doing hurt sales) at least that’s what they say

Wyndham says (at least the Wyndham attorney I work with) tells me that Wyndham has no problem with renting and renters or even the so called abuses. Their issue is one of fairness. As manager and administrator of the trust they represent all owners and it is important that they are always able to say every owner has an equal chance to get any reservation. Because they believe that the way I (and others) used the credit pool and the cancel rebook strategy gave us an unfair advantage when making reservations. And especially because they got complaints from folks like you. They felt the need to close loopholes and change rules. It didn’t help my cause either, that I was able to make vip accounts at will, without ever visiting a Wyndham sales room

So they changed the rules to keep a level playing field. At least that’s what they say

It is my personal belief that the most important complaints were from the sales managers. That it was easy for folks to enjoy the Wyndham experience without a purchase was I think responsible for a lot of rejections and rescissions. Bottom line we megarenters hurt sales. And that was the reason for all the changes
 
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Silverdollar

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You are absolutely right the so called abuses neither helped or hurt Wyndham (unless what we were doing hurt sales) at least that’s what they say

Wyndham says (at least the Wyndham attorney I work with) tells me that Wyndham has no problem with renting and renters or even the so called abuses. Their issue is one of fairness. As manager and administrator of the trust they represent all owners and it is important that they are always able to say every owner has an equal chance to get any reservation. Because they believe that the way I (and others) used the credit pool and the cancel rebook strategy gave us an unfair advantage when making reservations. And especially because they got complaints from folks like you. They felt the need to close loopholes and change rules. It didn’t help my cause either, that I was able to make vip accounts at will, without ever visiting a Wyndham sales room

So they changed the rules to keep a level playing field. At least that’s what they say

It is my personal belief that the most important complaints were from the sales managers. That it was easy for folks to enjoy the Wyndham experience without a purchase was I think responsible for a lot of rejections and rescissions. Bottom line we megarenters hurt sales. And that was the reason for all the changes
You spoke of fairness and changing the rules to keep a level playing field. Could your last paragraph also apply to the purchase of resales versus developer points, such as when you said, "easy for folks to enjoy the Wyndham experience without a purchase . . . responsible for a lot of rejections and rescissions. Bottom line [resales] hurt sales. And that was the reason for all the changes".

If the most important complaints were from the sales managers (as you say), and it resulted in "all the changes", could Wyndham also decide to change the rules because of so many resale purchases for "pennies on the dollar" that has resulted in "a lot of rejections, rescissions and hurt sales"?

It seems to me that in the long run Wyndham will have to make an adequate number of sales of developer points to stay viable. Therefore, if resales cut too deep into profits then changes will have to be made in some way.
 

Avislo

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Wyndham did limit re-sales by requiring developer points for some of the programs. Where Wyndham Destinations goes on this issue remains to be seen.
 

Braindead

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Wyndham did NOT limit resales available by requiring developer points for some of the programs.
They only made resales prices go down giving the informed buyer even more incentive to buy resale.
 

ronparise

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You spoke of fairness and changing the rules to keep a level playing field. Could your last paragraph also apply to the purchase of resales versus developer points, such as when you said, "easy for folks to enjoy the Wyndham experience without a purchase . . . responsible for a lot of rejections and rescissions. Bottom line [resales] hurt sales. And that was the reason for all the changes".

If the most important complaints were from the sales managers (as you say), and it resulted in "all the changes", could Wyndham also decide to change the rules because of so many resale purchases for "pennies on the dollar" that has resulted in "a lot of rejections, rescissions and hurt sales"?

It seems to me that in the long run Wyndham will have to make an adequate number of sales of developer points to stay viable. Therefore, if resales cut too deep into profits then changes will have to be made in some way.

Dont forget . every resale was originally a developer purchase
I dont see how a resale hurts profits

I agree that wyndham makes their money from sales. They make money managing the resorts and the club too, but the real money is in sales.The question posed in the article that started this discussion is... Can wyndham and the other timeshare companies continue to sell at the rate they have been given that young people dont seem to be moved by the forever nature of timeshares and the high upfront cost of them

Also sales related is the fact that wyndham has to provide product for the sales staff to sell.. Thats where the secondary market comes in. Wyndham dosent want to stop secondary market transfers, (they cant) but they can and do participate. Between Ovation and secondary market purchases that they make, Wyndham is able to keep their sales department supplied

The point Im trying to make here is that Wyndham has a Plan B that they are working on too, just in case the day comes when they can sell this stuff... And I think that plan includes rentals.
 

Railman83

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As the OP I note just how far the conversation has drifted from the original post about a shortage in inventory, which, btw, no longer seem to be the case.
 

Avislo

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As the OP I note just how far the conversation has drifted from the original post about a shortage in inventory, which, btw, no longer seem to be the case.

The common main and supporting points on the thread have to do with slim pickings on re-sale. It has overall been a very good thread. Thanks for starting it.
 

Railman83

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The common main and supporting points on the thread have to do with slim pickings on re-sale. It has overall been a very good thread. Thanks for starting it.
Thank you and understood.

The thread was started based on a snapshot in time that suggested a trend that actually reversed itself very quickly, at least on EBay.

Were I to start the thread today it might be “increased prices on resale for the better stuff”
 

Jan M.

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You spoke of fairness and changing the rules to keep a level playing field. Could your last paragraph also apply to the purchase of resales versus developer points, such as when you said, "easy for folks to enjoy the Wyndham experience without a purchase . . . responsible for a lot of rejections and rescissions. Bottom line [resales] hurt sales. And that was the reason for all the changes".

If the most important complaints were from the sales managers (as you say), and it resulted in "all the changes", could Wyndham also decide to change the rules because of so many resale purchases for "pennies on the dollar" that has resulted in "a lot of rejections, rescissions and hurt sales"?

It seems to me that in the long run Wyndham will have to make an adequate number of sales of developer points to stay viable. Therefore, if resales cut too deep into profits then changes will have to be made in some way.

Instead of making changes to our detriment one critically important thing they could and should do is make a change to their business model.

I'm reminded of big chains that sold electronics and appliances that have gone under over the years. Like Sun TV, Circuit City, and most recently hhgregg. Best Buy has survived when the others didn't because they've changed their business model to keep pace with the times and market. Not only did they change it but they were the leaders in changing their business model. At one time their salespeople, like the salespeople at the other chains, worked on commission. Those Best Buy salespeople could make good money. Sound familiar? We know how good the money could be because a friend of my husband's left Best Buy after they dropped commission and he was no longer making the big bucks. Best Buy decided to get rid of commission and those employees either became hourly or salaried employees. Not sure exactly how long ago they made that change but I know it is more than 12 years ago because our son worked for Best Buy when he was in college. The point is that Best Buy survived just fine, prospered and continued to grow.

I've always said that Wyndham has a good product. When you have a good product word of mouth and satisfied customers/owners sell your product more than anything else. Especially now when anyone can easily read reviews posted on places like Trip Advisor, join discussion groups like TUG, Facebook, hear/read about the lawsuits and settlements that have hit the news, etc. Is it really in Wyndham's best interests to continue with a business model that only damages their reputation? They are their own worst enemy yet they still stick with this business model that only harms them. Will they be like Circuit City and hhgregg who tried to copy some but not all of Best Buy's business model? Will they allow their old school executives and board members to insist on clinging to these destructive and outdated business practices so they don't change what really needs changed?

When a company not just allows but actively encourages their sales people to lie, manipulate, engage in unethical sales practices they are in effect saying we don't have a product worth having so we have to do these things to sell our product. If Wyndham were to announce that they are doing away with commissioned sales people and thereby putting an end to the unacceptable and unethical sales tactics the positive publicity that would come out of that would be amazing! If they were to come out with a statement to the effect of: We know we have a good product and don't want anything to detract from people seeing that. Our ... (number) owners like being owners, enjoy the resorts. By making these changes we believe that Wyndham will move forward in a positive way so more people can have that same experience. Money can't buy the kind of positive publicity a move like that would bring.
 
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capital city

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Instead of making changes to our detriment one critically important thing they could and should do is make a change to their business model.

I'm reminded of big chains that sold electronics and appliances that have gone under over the years. Like Sun TV, Circuit City, and most recently hhgregg. Best Buy has survived when the others didn't because they've changed their business model to keep pace with the times and market. Not only did they change it but they were the leaders in changing their business model. At one time their salespeople, like the salespeople at the other chains, worked on commission. Those Best Buy salespeople could make good money. Sound familiar? We know how good the money could be because a friend of my husband's left Best Buy after they dropped commission and he was no longer making the big bucks. Best Buy decided to get rid of commission and those employees either became hourly or salaried employees. Not sure exactly how long ago they made that change but I know it is more than 12 years ago because our son worked for Best Buy when he was in college. The point is that Best Buy survived just fine, prospered and continued to grow.

I've always said that Wyndham has a good product. When you have a good product word of mouth and satisfied customers/owners sell your product more than anything else. Especially now when anyone can easily read reviews posted on places like Trip Advisor, join discussion groups like TUG, Facebook, hear/read about the lawsuits and settlements that have hit the news, etc. Is it really in Wyndham's best interests to continue with a business model that only damages their reputation? They are their own worst enemy yet they still stick with this business model that only harms them. Will they be like Circuit City and hhgregg who tried to copy some but not all of Best Buy's business model? Will they allow their old school executives and board members to insist on clinging to these destructive and outdated business practices so they don't change what really needs changed?

When a company not just allows but actively encourages their sales people to lie, manipulate, engage in unethical sales practices they are in effect saying we don't have a product worth having so we have to do these things to sell our product. If Wyndham were to announce that they are doing away with commissioned sales people and thereby putting an end to the unacceptable and unethical sales tactics the positive publicity that would come out of that would be amazing! If they were to come out with a statement to the effect of: We know we have a good product and don't want anything to detract from people seeing that. Our ... (number) owners like being owners, enjoy the resorts. By making these changes we believe that Wyndham will move forward in a positive way so more people can have that same experience. Money can't buy the kind of positive publicity a move like that would bring.

Completely agree and how much could Wyndham save by cutting the aggressive sales teams and high commissions. Just doing quick math I think they could sell a week - 150,000 points for 7k and still make a decent profit but instead want to charge what is it now 25k?
 

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I wonder what the straight sales commission structure is in the TS industry?

I thought years ago for new developments, people speculated that up to 25% was to recoup the cost to build, 25% was for the sales commissions and marketing costs and the remaining 50% was the developer's profit. Plus the unconscionable interest rates they'd charge to those without the means to pay cash or finance their developer purchase through other lending avenues.

Now with Ovations, Pathways and the resale market - perhaps the cost of acquisition is much less than 25%, so a larger developer's profit every time Wyndham can flip a new developer sale.
 

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Are you saying that the numerous rescissions made by those who found this forum have not hurt profits? And what about those who attend future owner updates with this knowledge of the resale market? Does their refusal to ever make a developer purchase again hurt profits? It would seem to me that in both cases they do or would.

I agree that every resale was originally a developer purchase, but if John Doe makes a developer purchase and then rescinds and then turns around and purchases a resale, then Wyndham has lost a sale worth thousands$$$ that would have otherwise added to their bottom line.

Don't get me wrong. As long as the resale option of "pennies on the dollar" is available, I don't blame anyone for taking advantage of it. I'm just saying that at some point Wyndham might feel compelled to put additional limits on resale points to make developer purchases more attractive.
 
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