ROFR metric / Ongoing ROFR Activity

[dagger1]

You should get the seller to reserve a 2018 week for you and then it can transfer to you after closing.

It's an EOYO week, I don't think you can move it to 2018, can you?

 

[Saintsfanfl]

On the estoppel request form sent to Marriott, one of the boxes checked (asking for a response from Marriott) was: "Which years are open for usage".
There were 2 boxes (filled in by Marriott): Current YR - 2017 YES and Upcoming YR - 2018 N/A. I will check with Marriott when closed/transferred in 45-60 days, but we are happy with 2019 usage, that was the reason for the good price. Thanks for the advice!!

The estoppel shows what is available on the current account at the time the estoppel is filled out. That does not mean your usage begins in 2017. Your purchase contract should state specifically which year usage begins and if it says 2017 then you will have 2017 available when it transfers, provided the seller does not deposit it in their II account before the usage is locked and moved to you. Once transfer occurs you can check your account and see if there is a reservation available. If there is none then you can call MVCI and ask for an II replacement deposit. They will put your request in and then they will notify you if it does or does not occur. This takes a few days.

It's an EOYO week, I don't think you can move it to 2018, can you?

Nope

 

[dagger1]

Thanks, we understood that our usage begins in 2019, and based our offer price on that fact. I see what you are saying, just because the box "Which years are open for usage" and "Current Year" is filled in with "2017-Yes", that doesn't mean that it hasn't already been used or deposited into the current owners II account. Thanks!!

 

[Saintsfanfl]

Thanks, we understood that our usage begins in 2019, and based our offer price on that fact. I see what you are saying, just because the box "Which years are open for usage" and "Current Year" is filled in with "2017-Yes", that doesn't mean that it hasn't already been used or deposited into the current owners II account. Thanks!!

And Marriott does not move any unused usage to the new owner if the usage is prior to the contract specification. Many systems and properties do this but Marriott segregates usage according to the contract so even after the transfer to you occurs the 2017 usage will stay with the prior owner even if it is not yet used.

I recently had a dispute where my contract stated usage begins in 2018 but the problem is that even though Marriott segregates the usage they do not do this with finance and unpaid fees. The usage department and the finance department are completely separate. Marriott always blindly transfers any unpaid fees to the new owner which can immediately become a collection item and soon public record with a lien filing. My usage was to begin in 2018 but I was stuck with the 2017 fee, late fees, interest, and lien filing fee. I ended up getting 60% of the amount refunded to me and the broker also had the seller fill out a form and the 2017 usage transferred to me. That is something I learned that is new to me. You can fill out a form and pay a $25 fee and have usage transferred to a new owner if it was not part of the original contract and transfer process.

 

[dagger1]

And Marriott does not move any unused usage to the new owner if the usage is prior to the contract specification. Many systems and properties do this but Marriott segregates usage according to the contract so even after the transfer to you occurs the 2017 usage will stay with the prior owner even if it is not yet used.

I recently had a dispute where my contract stated usage begins in 2018 but the problem is that even though Marriott segregates the usage they do not do this with finance and unpaid fees. The usage department and the finance department are completely separate. Marriott always blindly transfers any unpaid fees to the new owner which can immediately become a collection item and soon public record with a lien filing. My usage was to begin in 2018 but I was stuck with the 2017 fee, late fees, interest, and lien filing fee. I ended up getting 60% of the amount refunded to me and the broker also had the seller fill out a form and the 2017 usage transferred to me. That is something I learned that is new to me. You can fill out a form and pay a $25 fee and have usage transferred to a new owner if it was not part of the original contract and transfer process.

Thanks again, I will check in this!!

 

[Jpollo]

A friend of mine just had two successful ROFR waivers today.

• Waiohai Island View Annual: 5,000
• Waiohai Island View Annual: 5,500

Posted to rofr.net as well.

 

[Trudyt623]

I had a successful ROFR waiver on an Aruba Surf Club OS 2br lockout for $4,000. I was notified by Redweek agent about 10 days after it was submitted to Marriott.

Trudy

 

[csodjd]

Emmy, you are such a dear to remember my big challenges with booking my weeks for February on Maui! Thank you. I wish I could say we did buy a fixed week this round, but we bought 1 week EOYE to go with our EOYO 2 weeks. We bought a float week. The prices for the weeks we would need for a fixed week were just too high right now for what we were willing to pay at this time.

But I am super excited that we will now get to go to Maui every year rather than EOY!!! Yippee!!! And I have certainly not ruled out that elusive fixed week 2 bdrm Annual oceanfront in either Napili or Lahaina tower......

I'm waiting to hear on a 2-bd oceanfront Napili EOY-Odd at $13.5k, but not expecting a problem as there are several on the market in the $15k area.

 

[dioxide45]

I had a successful ROFR waiver on an Aruba Surf Club OS 2br lockout for $4,000. I was notified by Redweek agent about 10 days after it was submitted to Marriott.

Trudy

Was this for an EOY week? This seems like a very low price. All of the most recent postings on www.ROFR.net have Ocean View failing above $10,000. Can you also add your experience to www.ROFR.net?

 

[Beachspace]

FYI: just passed ROFR with a 3Bed GrandVista Gold Week for $1500 + Closing costs, no 2018 usage (reimbursed $1650 at closing by seller for January MF). Closing in 30-45 days. (its on ROFR now as well)
Only took 6 business days too! My Harbour lake has been pending for 20 days now...

Update: I just passed ROFR on my Harbour Lake Plat 2 Bedroom! It was about 8 business days because the first 30 days, the broker did nothing with our contract! That's what was taking so long. Even though I had been arguing that it was taking a while to hear something and they responded with "I'm gonna call marriott now to find out what their problem is!" (and all along they never submitted the contract). After yelling at them, they 'expedited' our deal to Marriott and we got a respones right away.

Question for Dioxide - My winning ebay bid was $370 including free closing costs. The waiver submitted was $2370 ($2,000 in 'marketing' costs to the seller). What should i put on the ROFR database? $370 or $2370?

Excited I got both my GV 3 Bedroom and my Harbour Lake Platinum (Both Annual) for about $2300 total! Just 3 months ago we were at our 1st time share presentation being 'sold' on why we should buy 2000 points for $27,000! Couldn't have done it without the help from TUG!

 

[dioxide45]

Question for Dioxide - My winning ebay bid was $370 including free closing costs. The waiver submitted was $2370 ($2,000 in 'marketing' costs to the seller). What should i put on the ROFR database? $370 or $2370?

Best to post what was submitted, $2370. That is the problem with Ebay auctions, at least you know what was actually submitted, many don't. It is best to know what the actual number used for the submission was.

 

[suenmike32]

I'm in the process of selling one of my timeshares and handling the sale through my own title transfer company. I am proactive in the process and faxed the rofr request myself to Marriott resales. It was waived and I was notified in 3 days.
I have moved on to the next step and will post the progress as well as pricing after the closing. Essentially, what I'm saying is that parent companies, brokers, lawyers and to some extent salespersons move at their own speed. Sometimes they need a bit of "verbal enlightenment" to get them on track.

 

[Beachspace]

I'm in the process of selling one of my timeshares and handling the sale through my own title transfer company. I am proactive in the process and faxed the rofr request myself to Marriott resales. It was waived and I was notified in 3 days.
I have moved on to the next step and will post the progress as well as pricing after the closing. Essentially, what I'm saying is that parent companies, brokers, lawyers and to some extent salespersons move at their own speed. Sometimes they need a bit of "verbal enlightenment" to get them on track.

After I lit into them, the 'manager' called me and basically said 'The ladies selling/marketing have no idea about ROFR, when its sent in. We sell a lot of cheap timeshares, that's why we say it can take 90-150 days. Usually the first month it just sits in our Queue til we get around to it. If we had to stop and reply to every customer that emailed, we would never get anything done" --- Wow!! Lucky for him I got such a good deal that I didn't tell him to go *$%* himself and move on to another.

I'll post the review of the company once its officially done.

 

[Saintsfanfl]

After I lit into them, the 'manager' called me and basically said 'The ladies selling/marketing have no idea about ROFR, when its sent in. We sell a lot of cheap timeshares, that's why we say it can take 90-150 days. Usually the first month it just sits in our Queue til we get around to it. If we had to stop and reply to every customer that emailed, we would never get anything done" --- Wow!! Lucky for him I got such a good deal that I didn't tell him to go *$%* himself and move on to another.

I'll post the review of the company once its officially done.

I have dealt and deal on a daily basis with many of these companies. You might not like it but the best deals are with the worst companies because people are apprehensive to buy from them. You likely would have never gotten as good of a deal from a widely known, reputable, and efficient company.

Also the strictly by the book reputable brokers would never add $2,000 to the price for ROFR. The most a strictly by the book broker will do is fold the closing costs into the purchase price and make the closing "free". It doesn't mean there are not reputable companies out there adding commission and fees to boost the ROFR price. My absolute favorite company to buy from will do this, but it is a questionable enough practice that a traditional by the book broker will simply never consider doing it.

 

[Trudyt623]

Was this for an EOY week? This seems like a very low price. All of the most recent postings on www.ROFR.net have Ocean View failing above $10,000. Can you also add your experience to www.ROFR.net?

This is an annual Oceanside week during the gold season (mid-may to Mid December). RTU

I corresponded with the owner and the Redweek team handled everything. My first inquiry to the owner was around July 15th and after agreeing to buy it the agent contacted me a few days later. About 10 days after both parties signed I received the closing documents and info. The transfer should be completed shortly

 

[dannybaker]

Has anyone had experience buying for one price from a broker who, in-turn, supplies a contract for another much higher price to Marriott and, in-turn, supplies the buyer with an"addendum" to the contract that specifically states the buyer is only responsible for the agreed upon lower purchase price upon closing, and the seller pays the balance to Marriott?

I have practiced Real Estate for over 20 years as a Broker/Agent/Owner.
There are Federal and state laws that apply to a contract. Each state has a separate set of laws and rules. It is very expensive to break or violate these rules. Fines can run way over 50k as an owner Broker. In addition to potentially losing your license. I do not understand why an agent would violate any laws or rules. He is not profiting by not sending in all the addendums, why would he do it?
Is he required to send in addendums?
Marriott wants a simple sales agreement document to make a decision, bottom line $$ amounts. Sometimes an agent might have agreed to sell the timeshare for a certain price or fee, which is perfectly legal to do. Bottom line is there is a ton of speculation about a Broker who has been in business since 2005. We do not know what was or wasn't sent into Marriott. Usually the title company wants all items and Marriott does not.

 

[SueDonJ]

I will never understand how TUGgers can be okay with agents basically committing fraud, i.e. submitting an ROFR document with anything other than the actual price paid for a timeshare. Isn't the ROFR database useless if it contains fraudulent submissions?

The question is, simply, whether or not we want the industry to be rife with disinformation and manipulation that causes harm. It doesn't matter if the one being harmed is the buyer, seller or developer. Complaining when it's done to you is disingenuous when you're okay with doing it yourself or having it done on your behalf.

 

[klpca]

I stumbled across a Redweek thread recently that discussed the amount of monies being expended by current owners who asked one of the PCC's to 'take the timeshare off their hands". The costs quoted included the resort transfer fees, prepaid maintenance fees, recording costs etc associated with the relinquishment. These amounts were paid by the relinquishing owner. The new purchasing owner then only paid the bid price on ebay. When submitting the ROFR paperwork to Marriott, how should those costs paid by the prior owner be handled? In the case of a traditional (non-timeshare) property sale, isn't the sale price inflated, then cash required from the buyer is reduced by amounts paid by sellers (I definitely see this on escrows - non-timeshare). This is a pretty big deal in CA as the sales price is what is recorded and used to calculate property tax. It is also used for comps on appraisals.

 

[Saintsfanfl]

I stumbled across a Redweek thread recently that discussed the amount of monies being expended by current owners who asked one of the PCC's to 'take the timeshare off their hands". The costs quoted included the resort transfer fees, prepaid maintenance fees, recording costs etc associated with the relinquishment. These amounts were paid by the relinquishing owner. The new purchasing owner then only paid the bid price on ebay. When submitting the ROFR paperwork to Marriott, how should those costs paid by the prior owner be handled? In the case of a traditional (non-timeshare) property sale, isn't the sale price inflated, then cash required from the buyer is reduced by amounts paid by sellers (I definitely see this on escrows - non-timeshare). This is a pretty big deal in CA as the sales price is what is recorded and used to calculate property tax. It is also used for comps on appraisals.

In your example you have a timeshare that has little to no value. Instead of being able to sell it the "seller" has to pay someone to take it and find a bargain buyer. The normal real estate transaction issue is something of real value and the buyer closing costs paid by the seller is negotiated, clearly in the sales agreement, and considered by the lender as well as the lender's appraisal. It does distort taxes but not to the benefit of the buyer and it does inflate comparables.

There are some costs that would be legitimate to be considered "buyer closing costs paid by seller" but the fact that it is off the record is the debated issue. The whole thing could be accomplished the same way but timeshare brokers cut corners and don't like to do the extra paperwork. Marriott doesn't really care enough to do anything because they have more buybacks and ROFRs being exercised when they want them than they can handle.

 

[klpca]

In your example you have a timeshare that has little to no value. Instead of being able to sell it the "seller" has to pay someone to take it and find a bargain buyer. The normal real estate transaction issue is something of real value and the buyer closing costs paid by the seller is negotiated, clearly in the sales agreement, and considered by the lender as well as the lender's appraisal. It does distort taxes but not to the benefit of the buyer and it does inflate comparables.

There are some costs that would be legitimate to be considered "buyer closing costs paid by seller" but the fact that it is off the record is the debated issue. The whole thing could be accomplished the same way but timeshare brokers cut corners and don't like to do the extra paperwork. Marriott doesn't really care enough to do anything because they have more buybacks and ROFRs being exercised when they want them than they can handle.

I just see it as two items having an overstated sales price. In both cases, the actual perceived value is the net number. A timeshare is just an extreme example. And I totally agree that Marriott doesn't care enough to dig very deep.

 

[Saintsfanfl]

I just see it as two items having an overstated sales price. In both cases, the actual perceived value is the net number. A timeshare is just an extreme example. And I totally agree that Marriott doesn't care enough to dig very deep.

Except one is documented and the other is not. The real difference is the paperwork or lack thereof. Many times the "legitimate" increasing of the ROFR price is not on the purchase agreement for the buyer. This would never ever happen with a house transaction. If it was properly documented there would be no issues at all. Without the documentation and proper settlement statement nobody can tell if it is legitimate or fraudulent.

 

[dioxide45]

I will never understand how TUGgers can be okay with agents basically committing fraud, i.e. submitting an ROFR document with anything other than the actual price paid for a timeshare. Isn't the ROFR database useless if it contains fraudulent submissions?

The question is, simply, whether or not we want the industry to be rife with disinformation and manipulation that causes harm. It doesn't matter if the one being harmed is the buyer, seller or developer. Complaining when it's done to you is disingenuous when you're okay with doing it yourself or having it done on your behalf.

The ROFR database is really only as good as the information put in to it. That is why when asked earlier what to put in, one should always list what is actually submitted to Marriott for the ROFR. The database is really just a tool or guide to get a general idea of what might or might not pass. What individual agents do or don't do is really beyond the control of anyone here. I think however that any buyer paid costs are okay to be included in the costs submitted to Marriott for ROFR. Back when we bought our Harbour Lake for $899, the agent submitted if for $1235, which was the actual amount of money we had to put in escrow. I think it is rather questionable for the agent to include seller paid costs as Marriott should also be getting the benefits of those seller paid costs if they step in to exercise. I am certainly not condoning fraud, but always ask people to submit the most accurate number they know. If they happen to have a copy of the ROFR waiver that Marriott provides, they should include that number, regardless if it is what they actually paid for the week.

 

[Saintsfanfl]

I think it is rather questionable for the agent to include seller paid costs as Marriott should also be getting the benefits of those seller paid costs if they step in to exercise.

Now that I think about it any legitimate seller paid costs that are on behalf of the buyer actually decrease the ROFR price rather than increase it. For example if a buyer has a contract price of $300k on a house purchase but the seller is to pay $5K in buyer closing costs then the net is $295k.

What some brokers are doing is adding broker commissions into the ROFR price. This is fine if they are stating it in the contract that they are to be paid if Marriott exercises ROFR, which is really a separate term and not part of the actual purchase price. I have see a couple brokers do this. I do not know if Marriott has to pay up if they exercise but if so this seems like the legitimate way of doing it and easier too.

 

[dioxide45]

Now that I think about it any legitimate seller paid costs that are on behalf of the buyer actually decrease the ROFR price rather than increase it. For example if a buyer has a contract price of $300k on a house purchase but the seller is to pay $5K in buyer closing costs then the net is $295k.

What some brokers are doing is adding broker commissions into the ROFR price. This is fine if they are stating it in the contract that they are to be paid if Marriott exercises ROFR, which is really a separate term and not part of the actual purchase price. I have see a couple brokers do this. I do not know if Marriott has to pay up if they exercise but if so this seems like the legitimate way of doing it and easier too.

The seller paid items would be a credit to the bottom line price. I think what is really in question is for timeshares where the seller paid the broker to unload the week (like a PCC). So I buy the week for $500 but the owner actually paid the listing broker $1500 to get rid of the week. They shouldn't be sending ROFR to Marriott in the amount of $2000. They do this so Marriott doesn't exercise since the seller ends up getting the proceeds from Marriott. I don't think Marriott will send the proceeds check to anyone but their owner of record? They want to keep Marriott's nose out of the gray PCC world that they work in. This certainly isn't on the up and up.

 

[Saintsfanfl]

The seller paid items would be a credit to the bottom line price. I think what is really in question is for timeshares where the seller paid the broker to unload the week (like a PCC). So I buy the week for $500 but the owner actually paid the listing broker $1500 to get rid of the week. They shouldn't be sending ROFR to Marriott in the amount of $2000. They do this so Marriott doesn't exercise since the seller ends up getting the proceeds from Marriott. I don't think Marriott will send the proceeds check to anyone but their owner of record? They want to keep Marriott's nose out of the gray PCC world that they work in. This certainly isn't on the up and up.

Part of the reason is the ROFR passing but even if it does not pass the broker keeps the $1,500 but the seller is made whole by getting the refund from Marriott. I agree that it is not on the up and up but if the broker put the commission language in the contract where Marriott would be on the hook for commission instead of an increased ROFR price then it results in the exact same thing. Marriott shells out $2,000 and the broker hands the $1,500 back to the seller (presumably). The only difference is the paperwork. One is legitimate and the other is not, but the math is the same.