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New Wyndham timeshare owner within cancellation period - need some quick advice!

Silverdollar

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Got it thanks! So when you say you used more than half your points at a 50% discount I’m assuming you mean within the 60 day booking window that comes with VIP? And these were all for your own vacations as opposed to points used for rentals? How do VIP Platinum folks typically transact rentals? Do you advertise somewhere? Do you advertise the points to others or actual weeks of booked vacations that you book beforehand? Just trying to better understand the specific process used to use points for rentals to cover MFs here.


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Yes, the discount and upgrades to larger units are within the 60-day booking window that comes with VIP. But, to clarify, VIP Platinum gets a 50% discount, VIP Gold gets 35% discount, and VIP Silver gets 25% discount in the 60-day window. And, VIP Platinum gets unit size upgrades within 60 days of check-in, VIP Gold gets upgrades within 45 days of check-in, and VIP Silver gets upgrades within 30 days of check-in.

Most all my points used for rentals were 50% discount and upgrades to larger units. Points used for vacations were a mix of discounts/upgrades and bookings well in advance in order to get what I wanted, where I wanted, and to book specific unit numbers, which is a benefit available to VIP Gold and Platinum.

I don't know how other VIP Platinum owners typically transact rentals. Personally, I list my rentals on a well known timeshare rental site. I advertise actual weeks that I book beforehand. When booking, I use a simple six step process that works for me.

It is almost impossible for non-VIP owners to compete on rental prices with VIP Platinum owners. Let's consider a week at a particular Wyndham resort in prime season in a 2 BR unit for 224,000 points. A VIP Platinum owner can book a 1 BR unit at that same resort (in the 60-day window) that would normally be 166,000 points at a 50% discount or 83,000 points and then upgrade it to a 2 BR unit for no additional points.

If the VIP Platinum owner has CWA, those points are worth about $6 per 1000. So, 83,000 points x $6 = $498. That 2 BR unit can be rented for $900-$1,200 (sometimes more). That same 2 BR unit would cost a non-VIP owner with CWA 224,000 points x $6 = $1,344, or almost triple what it costs VIP Platinum.

Not only can the Platinum owner rent (or vacation at) the 2 BR unit for 83k points, it leaves them with 141k points (which is the difference between the 224k and 83k) they can use to rent or vacation elsewhere.

Is inventory and upgrades always available? No. Can you always get your asking price. No. But, if you don't receive any offers, or the price you want, you can always cancel more than 15 days from check-in and get your points back. And since VIP Platinum has unlimited housekeeping credits, unlimited reservation transactions, and plenty of guest certificates, it doesn't cost anything to cancel. Further, with the Points deposit feature, VIP Platinum has until the last day of the year to decide whether to deposit leftover points into the next year, or the following year.

You might ask, what about availability within the 60-day window? And, is it worth anything? All I can say is I've been able to rent enough units this year to pay all my MFs (and more) within the first three months of the year, and still have plenty of points left over to vacation. The key is to know the resorts and seasons to look for. This is something you learn over time.
 

Braindead

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Here’s another question, how is availability in CWA vs CWP? Or is it the same pool at 10 months?
Supposed to be the same pool at 10 months. But I did buy CWA from Wyndham because of the price difference.
If I didn’t buy CWA from Wyndham I would’ve bought some CWA resale just in case their is any truth that you will see different availability.
I can tell you when I’m on the website on the ownership page my type of ownership is CWA. I’ve been very happy when using ARP with my CWA points
 

harveyhaddixfan

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Supposed to be the same pool at 10 months. But I did buy CWA from Wyndham because of the price difference.
If I didn’t buy CWA from Wyndham I would’ve bought some CWA resale just in case their is any truth that you will see different availability.
I can tell you when I’m on the website on the ownership page my type of ownership is CWA. I’ve been very happy with using ARP with my CWA points

Can an account have CWA and CWP in it? Would only your CWA points work at 13 months?

I just started the process of buying a 168k Odd Bali Hai contract and figured at some point in the future I may add to it with an even year contract.
 

HitchHiker71

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As VIP Platinum, I used my points for rentals to pay more than 100% of my MF's in the first 3 months of this year, and still had plenty of points left for vacations. More than half of my points were used at 50% discount and included upgrades. I had unlimited housekeeping credits, unlimited transactions, and plenty of free guest certificates.

SD,

In addition to my questions above, would you be willing to provide the breakdown of points used for personal vacations vs rentals? I’m trying to gauge how many points I will need to acquire solely for rental purposes to cover all MFs. Also, I’m assuming when you state that “I used my points for rentals to pay more than 100% of my MF's in the first 3 months of this year” you mean you used a subset of your total points to cover ALL of your MFs for your entire contract for the entire year yes? Not just the MFs for the rental points right?

Feel free to PM me if you would rather not post anything publicly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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Braindead

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Can an account have CWA and CWP in it? Would only your CWA points work at 13 months?

I just started the process of buying a 168k Odd Bali Hai contract and figured at some point in the future I may add to it with an even year contract.
I have all types of ownership. ARP on all types shows up using the points calculator and work as they should.
If your Bali Hai is a converted week to points you will have no points ARP on the contract
 

HitchHiker71

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Colonies at Williamsburg (PIC Plus)
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National Harbor Resale (689k)
For VIP users booking within the 60 day window, do the points discounts apply to existing deal specials? For instance right now in the deals section there’s up to 70% off points bookings at Williamsburg resorts up through July 31. As a temporary VIP Silver member (until my rescission goes through), would I receive the additional 25% points discount on top of the 70%?


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Richelle

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Thanks so much Richelle! You rock!

I agree it’s all about the perceived value of the VIP benefits. How often have you all actually been able to use the 60 day points savings features for example? As a percentage of overall bookings? 10%? 25%? How often have you all experienced the automatic unit upgrades on reservations as a percentage of bookings?

Just trying to make a determination on how to grade these VIP benefits. We have three young adult children and fully anticipate using the guest confirmations on a fairly regular basis for them.

We have already booked our BG sampler package trip to The Fountains in Orlando and I just booked our free three nights from Wyndham Rewards that we got for attending the sales pitch. We are getting more excited about getting our Wyndham account up and running soon!

Lastly, can someone please explain to me the value proposition for RARP? I fully get ARP 13 months out, but am not understanding RARP yet.

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I only just went gold from silver. I’ve only been Silver for a little over year. Long story short, when I bought in 2008, they screwed up my PIC and didn’t credit me enough points. They fixed it and made me grandfathered VIP (VIP Silver was 300k at the time and I should have had 392k). I have been able to use the discount once and my only vacations with the exception of the last one was during prime and it was too risky to cancel rebook if anything popped up because canceled inventory that popped up disappeared just as quickly. This last one I was able to book a 3 bed Presidential at WBC at a 25% discount. No upgrade though. That one just popped up and I snagged it. I didn’t expect an upgrade. It’s easier to get upgraded from a one bedroom then a three bedroom presidential. Plus I was only Silver. Gold and platinum get upgraded earlier then silver. Silver get what’s left over.

RARP allows you to book any clube Wyndhan resort at 11 months instead of 10 in the standard window. This is good if you need to snag a larger room. Owners and CWA (is participating resort) can book at 13 months, but Gokd and Platinum can book at 11 months (2 or 4 tines a year respectively), while everyone else has to wait until 10 months
 

Silverdollar

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SD,

In addition to my questions above, would you be willing to provide the breakdown of points used for personal vacations vs rentals? I’m trying to gauge how many points I will need to acquire solely for rental purposes to cover all MFs. Also, I’m assuming when you state that “I used my points for rentals to pay more than 100% of my MF's in the first 3 months of this year” you mean you used a subset of your total points to cover ALL of your MFs for your entire contract for the entire year yes? Not just the MFs for the rental points right?

Feel free to PM me if you would rather not post anything publicly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes, I used a subset of my total points to cover ALL of my MFs for my entire contract for the entire year. That includes all my MFs for CWA, as well as all my MFs for my 2 PIC weeks. NOT just the MFs for the rental points.

I'll need to do some figuring to provide you the breakdown of points used for personal vacations versus rentals. I'll have to get back to you. Just so you know, those percentages can swing widely from year to year because sometimes you can randomly land on really good deals. For example, I recently booked a 4-night vacation at Fairfield Plantation for next month. The 4 nights only cost me 15,500 points. I booked a studio at 50% discount and upgraded to a 2 BR with loft. The value of those 15,500 pts x $6 = $93.00 or $23.25 per night!

As has been said on other threads, there are so many different variables such as when and where you want to vacation, and how many BRs you need, etc. You could easily consume most, if not all, your (VIP) points on one or two vacations at some of the "high point" resorts like Wyndham Emerald Grand, where a 3 BR Plus Bay View will cost you 550,000 pts. On the other hand, you could book 10 week-long vacations at other resorts if you are flexible to travel on short notice and/or open to visit some of the "lesser point" resorts. It all comes down to your family's availability and personal preferences.
 

Jan M.

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Wyndham Presidential Reserve at Panama City Beach
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Grandview Las Vegas and Discovery Beach Resort - Both in RCI Points
Woodstone and Summit at Massanutten - Both in RCI weeks used as Wyndham PICs
SD,

In addition to my questions above, would you be willing to provide the breakdown of points used for personal vacations vs rentals? I’m trying to gauge how many points I will need to acquire solely for rental purposes to cover all MFs. Also, I’m assuming when you state that “I used my points for rentals to pay more than 100% of my MF's in the first 3 months of this year” you mean you used a subset of your total points to cover ALL of your MFs for your entire contract for the entire year yes? Not just the MFs for the rental points right?

Feel free to PM me if you would rather not post anything publicly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

At this time with both the changes to the VIP benefits of 4/17 and the new website of 5/17 it is too risky a proposition and irresponsible to encourage someone, especially a new person, to purchase, resale or developer, a large number of points just to be able to do rentals.

The wisest advice many of us give is to buy what you need and where you need if you think you will need to use your ARP. I personally always seem to be recommending that the new people buy a larger number of points than what ever they are looking at. That they will likely want and need more points than they are considering buying and that they at least buy enough points, 231,000, to get past the minimum program fee.

Once they've learned to use the Wyndham booking system and stayed at a couple of resorts, if they find they have friends, acquaintances, co-workers that are willing to pay them for stays then they could consider buying more points. But nothing they couldn't handle the maintenance fees on if they couldn't rent.

Here is my personal story. When my husband got downsized/involuntarily retired from his job up North at the age of almost 61, he easily found another job and we moved to Florida which is what we wanted. It has has been wonderful; our cloud definitely had a silver lining! But instead of the 27 vacation days he had been getting he had to start over with two weeks vacation. We have over a million points and probably close to a million of those were points that we couldn't even begin to use. I had to learn to rent. At this same time our son, our only child, got married and two months later, oops they were expecting. Since then they have had a second child, changed jobs and moved twice so they have rarely been able to use the timeshares. So much for their plan to not start a family until they were turning 30 and well established in careers and finances. Our family is the perfect example of man plans and God laughs!

I put a lot of time and effort into learning to rent, finding reservations, marketing my rentals and dealing with renters. The one thing every person who thinks they might like to rent should know is that there is a learning curve with renting and you will make mistakes, sometimes big ones, as you learn even when you put a lot of time and effort into learning. Here we are now 7 years later, my husband finally retired in February so we can now use all our points for ourselves again and I'm happily retiring from renting. What if during the past 7 years, I or my husband had or in the upcoming years would have a health issue that would make it very difficult or even impossible for me to handle the renting or us to use our points again? I made up a list with contact information for several point managers, told my husband and son about the list and to immediately turn everything over to one of them if something happened to me. Not sure if any of those point managers survived or if any new ones have taken their place. Maybe someone else reading this knows and will post that information. I don't see my husband having the inclination or patience to do renting but our son would and would also need to if something happened to both of us that we were unable to use the timeshares. As long as health permitted my husband would definitely use our timeshares if I was no longer around and so would I if he was no longer around. Our son is only 31 and has a lot of years to go before he can use that many points. I have coached our son about how I do things and what he will need to know to manage the timeshares. We've owned for 17 years and hope to be using our timeshares for another 17 years if not more. But once you get over a certain age you become increasingly aware of how quickly things can change.

What I came to realize from the freeze of 8/16 is how much money an owner can bleed in maintenance fees. An owner wouldn't have to be frozen just have a an unexpected life event of their own or a family member that would make it very difficult to impossible to handle rentals. Plus more things could change with Wyndham making it even harder to make a profit with rentals. But those maintenance fees still have to be paid. Even while you are trying to find a way out.
 
Last edited:

Jan M.

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Wyndham Presidential Reserve at Panama City Beach
Club Wyndham Access
Grandview Las Vegas and Discovery Beach Resort - Both in RCI Points
Woodstone and Summit at Massanutten - Both in RCI weeks used as Wyndham PICs
For VIP users booking within the 60 day window, do the points discounts apply to existing deal specials? For instance right now in the deals section there’s up to 70% off points bookings at Williamsburg resorts up through July 31. As a temporary VIP Silver member (until my rescission goes through), would I receive the additional 25% points discount on top of the 70%?


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No, there are no further discounts.
 

wjappraise

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Given the changes to the VIP perks, it has become a "no brainer" (shout out to BrainDead), that VIP ownership is not worth the investment. Years ago, there were many discussions on this website about the inherent value in developer purchased VIP benefits. Even at that point, most savvy owners agreed that the cost paid for a VIP ownership, even using PIC, was not a sound investment, when the same amount of points could be purchased for a few hundred dollars via resale. I believe Ron suggested that investing the money saved in even a modest returning money market account would yield interest payments that would cover the fee savings and discounts that VIP ownership allowed. Since that time, the prospect of getting a desired reservation at a discount, or an upgrade, or a combination of the two, is quite remote. Anyone who has tried it knows that it involves a much higher risk of loss than prior 5/20/2017. I will only try it if I have a back up plan, and most of the time it fails.

That said, a non-VIP account will require careful planning as reservation transactions, HK fees, and guest fees can add up quickly. I think the worst type of ownership is what a friend of mine recently purchased from Wyndham. He purchased a low-point contract (126,000 EOY) with no temporary VIP status. So, he pays for every reservation transaction, has no real buying power, and can book a few days every other year. The $10,000 price he paid is a complete waste. I tried to tell him so, but he simply would not listen. Now, after not being able to book anything (and his salesman does not return phone calls) he understands what I tried telling him. So, he is now hoping to add some resale contracts so at least he can get some use out of his contract (he is paying a monthly loan payment on top of the MFs). If he purchased this via resale, he would have exactly the same perks he now has (none) but would have likely paid $100, if that, for the contract.
 

Richelle

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I do not have experience with that. The RARP benefit predates CWA. RARP may be close to a redundant notion in CWA, but CWA "home resort" access is for resorts that have inventory in CWA. There may be a few that do not have any inventory in CWA. If so, those might be available for an RARP res at 11 months. The oldest resorts were sold as fixed weeks, then came the switch to points based sales deeded to a home resort but with access to the others through the club - Club Wyndham Plus. Several years later, they started selling Club Wyndham Access, points based, no home resort. If resorts sold out as fixed weeks and/or as CWP, there was no CWA Access available at that resort until or unless Wyndham was able to reacquire some inventory through owner default, ovation, or a tradeup purchase.
There are more then a few that do not participate in CWA, so CWA owners would be able to use RARP for those resorts. They would also be able to use RARP on deeded inventory at CWA participating resorts. No really redundant.
 

HitchHiker71

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Yes, I used a subset of my total points to cover ALL of my MFs for my entire contract for the entire year. That includes all my MFs for CWA, as well as all my MFs for my 2 PIC weeks. NOT just the MFs for the rental points.

I'll need to do some figuring to provide you the breakdown of points used for personal vacations versus rentals. I'll have to get back to you. Just so you know, those percentages can swing widely from year to year because sometimes you can randomly land on really good deals. For example, I recently booked a 4-night vacation at Fairfield Plantation for next month. The 4 nights only cost me 15,500 points. I booked a studio at 50% discount and upgraded to a 2 BR with loft. The value of those 15,500 pts x $6 = $93.00 or $23.25 per night!

As has been said on other threads, there are so many different variables such as when and where you want to vacation, and how many BRs you need, etc. You could easily consume most, if not all, your (VIP) points on one or two vacations at some of the "high point" resorts like Wyndham Emerald Grand, where a 3 BR Plus Bay View will cost you 550,000 pts. On the other hand, you could book 10 week-long vacations at other resorts if you are flexible to travel on short notice and/or open to visit some of the "lesser point" resorts. It all comes down to your family's availability and personal preferences.

SD thanks for taking the time to reply. This is REALLY good information for me to digest. It is VERY interesting to me the variance of opinion on the worth of VIP level. WJ just posted that it has really been whittled down to a nub in many respects at least compared to days past. Yet you are giving me real life examples at the same time, this year, of how you used your VIP Platinum benefits to book within the 60 day window at a 50% points discount and then rent out those points and make enough to MORE than cover BOTH your developer points MFs AND your non-developer PIC weeks MFs. If VIP buys this kind of added flexibility/advantage, and gives me the opportunity to cover my MFs in entirety most years if I really learn how to use the system to my advantage, then compared to resale points, I could generate enough savings to cover the expense over a 20 year period. I will modify the spreadsheet in this thread to account for these use cases and see what the numbers show. More to come soon on the analytics.
 

HitchHiker71

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Colonies at Williamsburg (PIC Plus)
CWA VIP Gold (718k EY)
National Harbor Resale (689k)
At this time with both the changes to the VIP benefits of 4/17 and the new website of 5/17 it is too risky a proposition and irresponsible to encourage someone, especially a new person, to purchase, resale or developer, a large number of points just to be able to do rentals.

The wisest advice many of us give is to buy what you need and where you need if you think you will need to use your ARP. I personally always seem to be recommending that the new people buy a larger number of points than what ever they are looking at. That they will likely want and need more points than they are considering buying and that they at least buy enough points, 231,000, to get past the minimum program fee.

Once they've learned to use the Wyndham booking system and stayed at a couple of resorts, if they find they have friends, acquaintances, co-workers that are willing to pay them for stays then they could consider buying more points. But nothing they couldn't handle the maintenance fees on if they couldn't rent.

Here is my personal story. When my husband got downsized/involuntarily retired from his job up North at the age of almost 61, he easily found another job and we moved to Florida which is what we wanted. It has has been wonderful; our cloud definitely had a silver lining! But instead of the 27 vacation days he had been getting he had to start over with two weeks vacation. We have over a million points and probably close to a million of those were points that we couldn't even begin to use. I had to learn to rent. At this same time our son, our only child, got married and two months later, oops they were expecting. Since then they have had a second child, changed jobs and moved twice so they have rarely been able to use the timeshares. So much for their plan to not start a family until they were turning 30 and well established in careers and finances. Our family is the perfect example of man plans and God laughs!

I put a lot of time and effort into learning to rent, finding reservations, marketing my rentals and dealing with renters. The one thing every person who thinks they might like to rent should know is that there is a learning curve with renting and you will make mistakes, sometimes big ones, as you learn even when you put a lot of time and effort into learning. Here we are now 7 years later, my husband finally retired in February so we can now use all our points for ourselves again and I'm happily retiring from renting. What if during the past 7 years, I or my husband had or in the upcoming years would have a health issue that would make it very difficult or even impossible for me to handle the renting or us to use our points again? I made up a list with contact information for several point managers, told my husband and son about the list and to immediately turn everything over to one of them if something happened to me. Not sure if any of those point managers survived or if any new ones have taken their place. Maybe someone else reading this knows and will post that information. I don't see my husband having the inclination or patience to do renting but our son would and would also need to if something happened to both of us that we were unable to use the timeshares. As long as health permitted my husband would definitely use our timeshares if I was no longer around and so would I if he was no longer around. Our son is only 31 and has a lot of years to go before he can use that many points. I have coached our son about how I do things and what he will need to know to manage the timeshares. We've owned for 17 years and hope to be using our timeshares for another 17 years if not more. But once you get over a certain age you become increasingly aware of how quickly things can change.

What I came to realize from the freeze of 8/16 is how much money an owner can bleed in maintenance fees. An owner wouldn't have to be frozen just have a an unexpected life event of their own or a family member that would make it very difficult to impossible to handle rentals. Plus more things could change with Wyndham making it even harder to make a profit with rentals. But those maintenance fees still have to be paid. Even while you are trying to find a way out.

Thanks Jan M. I agree with your overall assessment. Perhaps I should provide some additional context. I already own a few rental properties as part of a LLC business that DW and I run on the side. I work f/t in technology, but am very familiar with real estate rental management in general, been doing it for ten years now. I'm certain TS rentals are different, but I'm also fairly certain there are shared lessons learned between the two areas. That said, we will probably pursue VIP Gold initially and stop there, get familiar with the system, grab a resale contract or two if we decide to start renting - those points will still have VIP Gold benefits applied to them right? Then if we find a working model and feel that VIP platinum would somehow be more advantageous, we would then consider another developer points transaction.
 

HitchHiker71

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Outer Banks Beach Club I (PIC Plus)
Colonies at Williamsburg (PIC Plus)
CWA VIP Gold (718k EY)
National Harbor Resale (689k)
Given the changes to the VIP perks, it has become a "no brainer" (shout out to BrainDead), that VIP ownership is not worth the investment. Years ago, there were many discussions on this website about the inherent value in developer purchased VIP benefits. Even at that point, most savvy owners agreed that the cost paid for a VIP ownership, even using PIC, was not a sound investment, when the same amount of points could be purchased for a few hundred dollars via resale. I believe Ron suggested that investing the money saved in even a modest returning money market account would yield interest payments that would cover the fee savings and discounts that VIP ownership allowed. Since that time, the prospect of getting a desired reservation at a discount, or an upgrade, or a combination of the two, is quite remote. Anyone who has tried it knows that it involves a much higher risk of loss than prior 5/20/2017. I will only try it if I have a back up plan, and most of the time it fails.

That said, a non-VIP account will require careful planning as reservation transactions, HK fees, and guest fees can add up quickly. I think the worst type of ownership is what a friend of mine recently purchased from Wyndham. He purchased a low-point contract (126,000 EOY) with no temporary VIP status. So, he pays for every reservation transaction, has no real buying power, and can book a few days every other year. The $10,000 price he paid is a complete waste. I tried to tell him so, but he simply would not listen. Now, after not being able to book anything (and his salesman does not return phone calls) he understands what I tried telling him. So, he is now hoping to add some resale contracts so at least he can get some use out of his contract (he is paying a monthly loan payment on top of the MFs). If he purchased this via resale, he would have exactly the same perks he now has (none) but would have likely paid $100, if that, for the contract.

WJ thanks for chiming in. I agree VIP is really hit or miss depending on who you ask, particularly "miss" in comparison to resale points. I am in the process of rescinding a 126k annual points contract that DW really wanted us to go with last week, for the exact reasons you are outlining here - not enough points to meet our needs realistically after doing additional due diligence. On the other hand I have folks like SD who are saying they DO get often get discounts, upgrades or a combination of the two, often enough to effectively use their points for rentals and cover MFs. So it seems some have more success in this area than others.
 

HitchHiker71

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There are more then a few that do not participate in CWA, so CWA owners would be able to use RARP for those resorts. They would also be able to use RARP on deeded inventory at CWA participating resorts. No really redundant.

Richelle, thanks for this info. So, I think what RARP is for, if I'm understanding you here, is to give me, a CWA owner, the ability to perform 11 month advance reservations, outside of the CWA 65+ resorts that are considered "home" resorts. Now I understand RARP! :)
 

skotrla

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SD thanks for taking the time to reply. This is REALLY good information for me to digest. It is VERY interesting to me the variance of opinion on the worth of VIP level. WJ just posted that it has really been whittled down to a nub in many respects at least compared to days past. Yet you are giving me real life examples at the same time, this year, of how you used your VIP Platinum benefits to book within the 60 day window at a 50% points discount and then rent out those points and make enough to MORE than cover BOTH your developer points MFs AND your non-developer PIC weeks MFs. If VIP buys this kind of added flexibility/advantage, and gives me the opportunity to cover my MFs in entirety most years if I really learn how to use the system to my advantage, then compared to resale points, I could generate enough savings to cover the expense over a 20 year period. I will modify the spreadsheet in this thread to account for these use cases and see what the numbers show. More to come soon on the analytics.

My general approach with a new club is to start out resale with the lowest possible maintenance and try to make rentals work with points beyond personal use. Once you have a baseline on rental opportunities without VIP, you can more easily determine what kind of a return you might get on VIP. As long as you don't overpay for resale points, you can get out with limited losses. Once you pull the trigger on VIP, you are locked-in, since anything you paid the developed will require large losses to exit.

-Scott
 

wjappraise

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On the other hand I have folks like SD who are saying they DO get often get discounts, upgrades or a combination of the two, often enough to effectively use their points for rentals and cover MFs. So it seems some have more success in this area than others.

HH - Thanks for the appreciation. I saw SD's post as well. I am wondering if his use of the past tense is an indication that he did this type of reserving and renting prior to the changes ushered in 05/20/2017. If so, those days are long gone. If he was referencing current conditions, then the window for renting units to cover MFs of those reservation costs as well as a sizable "for owner use" is very slim indeed. That is what I am trying to do, and I have Platinum VIP with PR contracts to help maximize my margins. I am finding that the only sustainable method is to solely focus on short lead time reservations (60 days or less). That allows for finding an already discounted reservation and hoping you have someone who can purchase it. And there seems to be a relatively robust competition for those types of listings.

My model is more finding reservations for my extended family and other friends. That does not allow the 60 day reservation to be in play very often. And that impacts the viability of what I can provide, and the prices I can provide. So, it has impacted me quite stridently.

Basically, it falls under the "go big, or go home" mantra. Either buy in up to Platinum VIP level, which have a heavy buy-in cost even when sweetened with PIC contracts, or buy cheaper resale and use the savings to generate interest income to pay for the fees you will now cover as a non-VIP owner. Even if you do buy in as Platinum VIP, do not expect to find plentiful upgrades and discounts; they simply do not exist at popular resorts during peak times. If you want to go to Branson during the winter, you are in luck!! But forget about getting a discount in Florida during the winter, or summer when school is out.
 

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That said, we will probably pursue VIP Gold initially and stop there, get familiar with the system, grab a resale contract or two if we decide to start renting - those points will still have VIP Gold benefits applied to them right? Then if we find a working model and feel that VIP platinum would somehow be more advantageous, we would then consider another developer points transaction.
This is a very good plan. At some point, I theorize that Wyndham will implement a calculator that limits VIP discounts, upgrades, etc. to only developer purchased points (and PIC's). I believe resale points will continue to lose benefits as time passes, it's a matter of just programming the take away into the system. There is nothing wrong with being Gold, assuming you use PIC's to get there.
 

wjappraise

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We will probably pursue VIP Gold initially and stop there, get familiar with the system, grab a resale contract or two if we decide to start renting - those points will still have VIP Gold benefits applied to them right? Then if we find a working model and feel that VIP platinum would somehow be more advantageous, we would then consider another developer points transaction.

I would recommend starting the opposite way, get some resale points and see how the program works and the availability and resorts, etc. Buy enough that you can make reservations you want and buy in increments of 77,000 (1 reservation transaction per 77,000 points per year). Buy at resorts with either lower MFs, or at popular resorts you want to use, and might need ARP. Once you've grown familiar with the product, then see if you want to buy Developer points. You can add them to your account.

Plus, that way if Wyndham continues to downgrade the VIP perks, you can choose to bypass that expensive avenue. The way it is now, the VIP product has simply been devalued too much. If I were starting afresh, I would not buy VIP at this point. Prior to this, even though I have seen the light of buying resale, I also was intrigued and liked the VIP perks. They just are not worth the incredible costs now.

I just saw a recorded deed for a Platinum VIP ownership. Owner paid $135,000+ three years ago. He's hoping to get $10,000 now. Probably will get $5,000. True, that contract won't have VIP perks. But it does speak to the incredible loss potential once Wyndham started unilaterally removing de facto rights of ownership from our accounts.
 

skotrla

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Your last comment on DVC. I thought the same thing the first time you started this spreadsheet analysis stuff trying to compare HIVC to Wyndham.

I think it’s pretty simple and boils down to just a few things to decide such as:
Resale,developer or developer with PICs. Under 400k points is automatic resale.

When your buying from Wyndham a low MF resort cost $190 per 1k points- CWA cost $145 per 1k points. $2 difference in MF. I don’t need a spreadsheet to tell me that takes 22 1/2 years at 0 interest.
I chose CWA - Richelle chose low MF. Who’s right and who’s wrong? I say both are right we both did what we felt was best for us personally.

For 700k resale points with low MFs at $10 per 1k points is $7,000 - 700k points using PICs is $30,000 and end up with about the same MF as the resale points. That’s $23,000 more than resale to become VIP Gold. Your spreadsheet can never show if one comes out ahead or behind because there’s absolutely no way to predict what the owner is going to receive in benefits over 10 or 20 years. Economy turns south benefits will be easier to get we know that from post 2008. The only decision is a personal one if you feel like you want to be VIP Gold for $23,000 more and I don’t think a spreadsheet can answer that.

All points purchased from Wyndham will never come out ahead on a spreadsheet and I don’t need a spreadsheet to show me that. The only decision then becomes low MF or CWA. Again I’ll take CWA with it’s ARP and lower up front cost. Some go this way even though any spreadsheet will show it doesn’t make $ sense and yet they’re glad they did and are happy campers. I’m glad they’re happy! Maybe they wanted to be Gold or Platinum and didn’t want to mess with buying PICs and worry about they’re PICs staying.

My point is the following example using 2 families with the same income level going to Disney on vacation:
Family A budgets $10,000
Family B the money wise or penny pinchers budgets $5,500
Family B spouse ask their investment person what if we invested $5,000 with you over 20 years. Answer- I can turn that $5k into $20,000
I will guarantee you one spouse in family B will say we shouldn’t go to Disney. We’ll stay home and go to the local amusement park. We’ll spend $500 and invest the $5,000 that will be $20,000 in 20 years.

Family B spouses pass away with a good chunk of money the kids are going to inherit. We’ve all seen it those kids are going to Disney now.
Did the parents see the joy and glee in their kids faces at Disney. No

If you want to use a spreadsheet to make dollar sense spent on vacations. Your not going!! That’s my point

A spreadsheet can't answer whether Gold is worth $23K, but it can help you quantify the financial benefits that the $23K will get you (guest certificates, discounts 60 days out), helping you to make a determination on whether the non-financial benefits are worth the balance. You assumptions on how many guest certificates you'll use (likely all of them if you do rentals) and how often you'll get discounted reservations will have a large impact here. If your usage doesn't match these assumptions, your value from Gold won't match what was calculated - that doesn't mean the spreadsheet was wrong, it just means that you were modeling someone else's usage pattern.

As I've said before, I'm not comparing vacationing vs. not vacationing - I'm comparing taking the same vacations using different paths to get there. Spending more money for the same vacations means spending less money on something else (maybe more vacations).

My Wyndham vs. HICV comparison wasn't about choosing one over the other - it was about thinking about an unknown system in the terms of a known system. For example, if I historically spend 500K points/year on HICV vacations, how many points do I need to be able to do the same amount of Wyndham vacations in comparable units? (704K based on both RCI analysis and DRI exchange values). DVC? (2K based on DRI exchange values).

-Scott
 

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Once you send in the recession letter to the address specified in the contract, where do you send the tablet? I was more concerned with getting the letter in on time than worrying about a $50 tablet. I just spoke to someone at Wyndham and he stated that I didn't have to return the tablet but I find that hard to believe. If there is no specific address, Can I just return the tablet next week when I visit another resort?
 

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Once you send in the recession letter to the address specified in the contract, where do you send the tablet? I was more concerned with getting the letter in on time than worrying about a $50 tablet. I just spoke to someone at Wyndham and he stated that I didn't have to return the tablet but I find that hard to believe. If there is no specific address, Can I just return the tablet next week when I visit another resort?

I'm not really concerned at all about the tablet. Since there is literally zero legal verbiage in the contract about the tablet, unless they ask for it back during the rescission process, I'm not going to address it at all.
 

Braindead

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Once you send in the recession letter to the address specified in the contract, where do you send the tablet? I was more concerned with getting the letter in on time than worrying about a $50 tablet. I just spoke to someone at Wyndham and he stated that I didn't have to return the tablet but I find that hard to believe. If there is no specific address, Can I just return the tablet next week when I visit another resort?
You can keep it. I was told ounce your contract and other info is loaded Wyndham can’t reuse it anyway. Wyndham can’t take a chance someone else could get into your personal data such as email, phone number, address etc.
 
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