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New Wyndham timeshare owner within cancellation period - need some quick advice!

HitchHiker71

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Correction: Telesales does not sell it. I agree Discovery is a great way to sample it and the money you spend on it, can go towards a retail purchase if you go that route. The no commitment part I think is the best part about it, because if someone finds out timesharing is not right for them, they can walk away without having to find a buyer and pay MF while waiting for the transfer to happen. There are only two drawbacks to it, that I can think of. One, you are limited to the resorts you can go to. Not all resorts are participating resorts, however, you do have a lot of options. Second, you don’t get to make your reservations online. You have to call. You can log into the website and see reservations you have made, but you cannot make them online. You also do not to experience the frustrations of not getting what you want, or the website crashing on you. Neither have happened often for me, because I plan far out and know a bit about computers. If it’s web maintenance, they usually tell you ahead of time. Usually.

I think I heard that you are required to sit through a meeting with a sales rep, but I’m not sure.

The package cost around $4k.

We are required to sit through an owner update sales pitch when we use the BG sampler package that we bought. I would imagine pretty much every timeshare company would require this for a sampler package in order to try and get you to make an actual developer points purchase.


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HitchHiker71

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I sat through a presentation back when I signed up for Discovery, that was a few years back. Telesales seems to be the easy way to go. No BS and it's all recorded. More options for HitchHiker71 to consider.

Yes Telesales will most likely be what I choose to do. DW and I spent a few hours this morning walking through everything I have learned over the past week as we work towards decisions on how to push forward.
DW is currently leaning toward going for VIP Gold after reviewing the directory content together in detail and talking through the various pros and cons as well as he breakeven points embedded in this thread.

I still have to develop the spreadsheet analytics to prove out our assumptions, but the short and long term pricing examples provided in this thread helped a LOT so thanks to everyone here who chipped in with your advice to date! It has all been extremely helpful! Happy Independence Day all!


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HitchHiker71

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Did you reach out to that seller on here who has one of your PICs that you need? She told me that she still has it

Ugh, I’m on so many threads now I have lost track of this specific item. Which one are you referring to?


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HitchHiker71

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I wasn't sure about the spreadsheet, so i went ahead and rewrote what i had. In this case, Resale wins...I just thought of something else. Resales prices for CWA and some other contracts will likely start to creep up, because Ovations is taking CWA back, and people are using it as a quick out. Why pay six months of maintenance fees while waiting for the transfer, when you can give it back and be done with it in less then two months? In some cases you get three years worth of points as well. This will likely lower the amount of CWA contracts available in the resale market. The demand for CWA will out weigh supply, and prices will increase. How much, no one knows. The same can be said for retail prices going up. If people are having a hard time getting them on the secondary market, Wyndham can start increasing their prices as well. So these prices could change and completely change the outcome, or it could remain the same.

Rewrote for 700,000 CWA. 10 year price difference is $15,032 in Resale's favor

Based on 700,000 (two PICS and 192,000 points)

A 511,000 CWA contract went for $2,495 on ebay yesterday, so based on that, the retail rate is $4.88 per $1k resale.

Short term (upfront) costs: $3,416 (assuming you pay no closing or transfer costs)
Long term costs: $4039 per year in maintenance fees based on $5.77 per 1k (not including future years increases)

10 year cost (not including MF increases): $43,806


Second option:


192,000 point CWA contract that retails at $145 per 1k points. That would cost you $27,840 retail. Maintenance fees $1,107.84 per year or 92.32 per month based on a rate of $5.77 per 1,000 points.

Then lets say you do, what i did, but twice. Buy (2) three bedrooms for $28 each. Total $56. Maintenance fees for both, plus the Wyndham program fee $1,992 a year or $166 a month for 508,000 points. If you want to compare apples to apples on maintenance fees, the maintenance fee rate for those 508,000 pic points is $3.92 per 1k points.

Short term (upfront costs): $27,840
Long term costs: $3,099.84 (not including maintenance increases)

10 year cost: $58,838

Not a huge price difference in the long term. We are not accounting for the VIP benefits of Silver. Some say Silver is worthless, others say VIP in general is worthless. Only you can put a dollar amount on the VIP benefits. Will you actually use them, and will it be worth the extra $1,800? At the 20 year mark, the cost of resale becomes more then retail so:

Resale 20 year cost: $84,196
Retail 20 year cost: $89,836

If you have your time share for 20 years, the $5,640 difference in resale's favor IF you do PIC. In this scenario resale is cheaper, but again does not account for the added benefits of 35% discount, upgrades (before silver), unlimited reservation transactions, unlimited housekeeping credits (all VIP), extra guest confirmations, as well as the benefits that only hold perceived value:

ability to reserve specific rooms
extended time to deposit points to future years
RARP advantage
Maragritaville
Complimentry Perks by Wyndham
Ability to ARP more times a year
RCI Instant Search and Book Feature
Worldwide External Exchange Deposit Unit Size Upgrades
Early checkin
mid-week clean and tidy
dedicated phone line
dedicated check-in line
Annual cruise

Thanks so much Richelle! You rock!

I agree it’s all about the perceived value of the VIP benefits. How often have you all actually been able to use the 60 day points savings features for example? As a percentage of overall bookings? 10%? 25%? How often have you all experienced the automatic unit upgrades on reservations as a percentage of bookings?

Just trying to make a determination on how to grade these VIP benefits. We have three young adult children and fully anticipate using the guest confirmations on a fairly regular basis for them.

We have already booked our BG sampler package trip to The Fountains in Orlando and I just booked our free three nights from Wyndham Rewards that we got for attending the sales pitch. We are getting more excited about getting our Wyndham account up and running soon!

Lastly, can someone please explain to me the value proposition for RARP? I fully get ARP 13 months out, but am not understanding RARP yet.

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HitchHiker71

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Couple Questions:

1. What resort are you using for MF comparison? Those don't look like the MF for CWA points which is 5.77 per 1k.
2. Why does the resale side have 637k points and the other only 557k? I'm sure there is a good reason, i just don't know what it is.
3. Why is there no guest fees on the retail side? Non-VIP gets two per year. Silver gets 5. What assumptions are made here? If you are accounting for the extra three GC fees Silver has, then that would be $295-$387 depending on where you get them. If you are doing an average of the two (129+99)/2= 114. The extra three would be $336. I am not sure sure where you are getting you $396 number.

Specific to number 2 above, I’m assuming he was looking at a 637k resale contract - or whomever the original spreadsheet author was at least. 557k I think is 508k for the two PICs plus 49k minimum developer points purchase is my best guess.

We now know it’s 49k per PIC week though, or at least that’s the current assumption, so it should be 606k total.




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paxsarah

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Another intangible that’s tougher to quantify is that in a 20 year scenario, it only works if your financial situation or vacation preferences don’t change unexpectedly. Obviously we’re all comfortable enough that we’re here discussing discretionary vacation spending, but unexpected events can happen at any time. Alternatively, maybe I decide that instead of timesharing my jam is now RVing, or camping, or cruising, or following Phish, or whatever. With low sunk costs, I’m not losing much if I decide to divest partially or fully from my timeshare ownership at any time. If I’ve sunk more up front expecting to break even over 10-15-20 years, a change in plans can be even more costly.
 

HitchHiker71

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Another intangible that’s tougher to quantify is that in a 20 year scenario, it only works if your financial situation or vacation preferences don’t change unexpectedly. Obviously we’re all comfortable enough that we’re here discussing discretionary vacation spending, but unexpected events can happen at any time. Alternatively, maybe I decide that instead of timesharing my jam is now RVing, or camping, or cruising, or following Phish, or whatever. With low sunk costs, I’m not losing much if I decide to divest partially or fully from my timeshare ownership at any time. If I’ve sunk more up front expecting to break even over 10-15-20 years, a change in plans can be even more costly.

Agreed. We are tend to suffer from a normalcy bias when looking into the future to various extents, assuming that tomorrow more or less will be somewhat similar to today. History teaches us that these are not valid assumptions especially over the average lifespan of a human being (the saeculum). Man plans, God laughs type thing.


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learnalot

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Thanks so much Richelle! You rock!

I agree it’s all about the perceived value of the VIP benefits. How often have you all actually been able to use the 60 day points savings features for example? As a percentage of overall bookings? 10%? 25%? How often have you all experienced the automatic unit upgrades on reservations as a percentage of bookings?

Just trying to make a determination on how to grade these VIP benefits. We have three young adult children and fully anticipate using the guest confirmations on a fairly regular basis for them.

We have already booked our BG sampler package trip to The Fountains in Orlando and I just booked our free three nights from Wyndham Rewards that we got for attending the sales pitch. We are getting more excited about getting our Wyndham account up and running soon!

Lastly, can someone please explain to me the value proposition for RARP? I fully get ARP 13 months out, but am not understanding RARP yet.

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RARP is a benefit at certain VIP levels. I think Gold gets 2 per year and Platinum gets 3. It allows you to book a reservation at 11 months out - somewhere other than your home resort. Home resort owners still have a priority window becasue they can book at 13 months. Booking windows are wide open at 10 months (except Presidential Reserve Inventory and Club Margaritaville, which retains access to 75% of the inventory for longer windows as outlined in club rules). I think there are some blackouts on this benefit - Thanksgiving week, Christmas-New Years, 4th of July, and Myrtle Beach summer, as I recall. We have used this benefit a couple of times, but there aren't too many reservations that can't be gotten at first bell at the 10 month mark, although 4 BR Presidential units might be an exception to that, especially for prime season.
 
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HitchHiker71

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RARP is a benefit at certain VIP levels. I think Gold gets one per year and Platinum gets 2. It allows you to book a reservation at 11 months out - somewhere other than your home resort. Home resort owners still have a priority window becasue they can book at 13 months. Booking windows are wide open at 10 months (except Presidential Reserve Inventory and Club Margaritaville, which retains access to 75% of the inventory for longer windows as outlined in club rules). You have to go through the call center to book an RARP reservation. I think there are some blackouts on this benefit - Thanksgiving week, Christmas-New Years, 4th of July, and Myrtle Beach summer, as I recall. We have used this benefit a couple of times, but there aren't too many reservations that can't be gotten at first bell at the 10 month mark, although 4 BR Presidential units might be an exception to that, especially for prime season.

Ok, but let’s assume CWA - doesn’t that mean ARP applies to 65+ resorts and that the HOA applies to all of the resorts? In other words with CWA there is no one “home” resort? What does the reciprocal ARP mean in this context?


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learnalot

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Ok, but let’s assume CWA - doesn’t that mean ARP applies to 65+ resorts and that the HOA applies to all of the resorts? In other words with CWA there is no one “home” resort? What does the reciprocal ARP mean in this context?


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I do not have experience with that. The RARP benefit predates CWA. RARP may be close to a redundant notion in CWA, but CWA "home resort" access is for resorts that have inventory in CWA. There may be a few that do not have any inventory in CWA. If so, those might be available for an RARP res at 11 months. The oldest resorts were sold as fixed weeks, then came the switch to points based sales deeded to a home resort but with access to the others through the club - Club Wyndham Plus. Several years later, they started selling Club Wyndham Access, points based, no home resort. If resorts sold out as fixed weeks and/or as CWP, there was no CWA Access available at that resort until or unless Wyndham was able to reacquire some inventory through owner default, ovation, or a tradeup purchase.
 

north

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VIP Gold gets 2 RARPs per year. Platinum gets 3. You can use the website to book RARP.

From the directory:
"The following holidays/special events are blacked out for this benefit: Easter/Spring Break, Fourth of July, Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Year’s Eve and June
through August at Myrtle Beach locations."
 

skotrla

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Couple Questions:

1. What resort are you using for MF comparison? Those don't look like the MF for CWA points which is 5.77 per 1k.
2. Why does the resale side have 637k points and the other only 557k? I'm sure there is a good reason, i just don't know what it is.
3. Why is there no guest fees on the retail side? Non-VIP gets two per year. Silver gets 5. What assumptions are made here? If you are accounting for the extra three GC fees Silver has, then that would be $295-$387 depending on where you get them. If you are doing an average of the two (129+99)/2= 114. The extra three would be $336. I am not sure sure where you are getting you $396 number.

You can download the Spreadsheet to Google Sheets and edit it for the numbers you want to use. It is set to AutoCalculate. Downloading will save a lot of time.

1. As Cyrus said, the spreadsheet is a tool for comparisons, so you could plug in different numbers. This was put together with some initial assumptions from ronparise from another thread.

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...se-to-enroll-a-pic.275341/page-2#post-2153020

Here were some of the variations I ran:

Default: Y6, $41K
Investment Return = 10%: Y6, $40K
Annual Points Needed = 1000K: Y5, $51K
60-day Bookings = 25%: Y7, $33K
Annual Maintenance Increase = 3%: Y6, $33K
Annual Guest Fees Used = 1: Y7, $33K
Resale Initial Cost $8/1K, Resale Annual Cost $5/1K: Y6, $24K
Resale Initial Cost $12/1K, Resale Annual Cost $4/1K: Y9, $6K

2. That's based on the % of reservations you get at 25% off by booking with 60 days from cell B3. The resale purchase requires more points to make up for the PIC purchase Silver discounts.

3. It's based on the number of guest reservations in cell B5 - I put it together before the new program guide came out that increased free guest reservations for Non-VIP from 1-2. $99 x 4 = $396. I had changed my local copy but not the one I uploaded.

Here's a link to my latest updates in a converted Google Sheets version so I can edit directly in the future.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1q6xmlv7KUw_1gyWP20rjd48We7ZdzaTIr8isz7xF-kI

Thanks,

Scott
 
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skotrla

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I bumped up retail purchase to $15K for 98K points with maintenance+program fee of $6.35 - if anyone has a better number to use, let me know.

I added a table to the spreadsheet comparing different scenarios - if you have a specific set of assumptions below you'd like to see in the table, let me know.

-Scott

Picture1.png
 

Braindead

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I’m going to use the CPA analogy here. You can twist these spreadsheets and break evens to which ever side you want.
We are talking vacations using disposable income.
There are way to many variables to assume anything with these spreadsheets that don’t even have a dollar value attached to them.
What value do you put on being able to pick a room number:
I’m not going to look at the garbage dumpster or parking ramp.
What’s it worth to be able to sit on your balcony with a view?
That’s just one example as some will say there’s no guarantee on room numbers but I’ve had good luck reserving room numbers.
One owner may get discounts and or upgrades on most of thier reservations while the next owners gets very little.
Do what you think is best for you and your family and that you are comfortable doing financially. There are NO wrong or right answers on ownership every owner will have their own priorities and preferences.
If you want to look at the return on money invested in vacations stay home and invest the money if thats the deciding factor.
Using these spreadsheets no one would ever own DVC. Try going on the DVC thread with spreadsheet on how they should own Wyndham instead of DVC and see what kind of response you get
 
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Braindead

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Why do some owners:
Stay in Presidential or PR suites instead of deluxe units
As a couple stay in a 1bdr instead of a studio
As a couple stayed in a 4bdr PR suite at Bonnet Creek as reported here in this forum[not me]
As a family stay in 3bdr instead of 2bdr and use the sofa pullout
Stay Oceanfront view instead a street view
Answer : because they wanted to. It was their personal choice.
 

HitchHiker71

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Certified mail Rescission letter was delivered successfully to the destination address at 12:56 PM today, waiting on the return receipt portion now, along with a written response per the letter terms for rescission and a full refund. If there are any other recommended methods to validate Wyndham’s response, please let me know.


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HitchHiker71

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For those who are platinum owners and/or have over 1MM points, do you use ALL of your points year to year for vacationing? Or do you somehow use a subset of points for rentals to recover some dollars toward MFs?

Beyond the 700k VIP Gold plan attainment we are currently targeting, i am wondering if it would be worth picking up a few resale contracts solely for the purpose of allocating those points for rental purposes to help cover MFs.


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Silverdollar

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For those who are platinum owners and/or have over 1MM points, do you use ALL of your points year to year for vacationing? Or do you somehow use a subset of points for rentals to recover some dollars toward MFs?

Beyond the 700k VIP Gold plan attainment we are currently targeting, i am wondering if it would be worth picking up a few resale contracts solely for the purpose of allocating those points for rental purposes to help cover MFs.


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As VIP Platinum, I used my points for rentals to pay more than 100% of my MF's in the first 3 months of this year, and still had plenty of points left for vacations. More than half of my points were used at 50% discount and included upgrades. I had unlimited housekeeping credits, unlimited transactions, and plenty of free guest certificates.
 

HitchHiker71

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As VIP Platinum, I used my points for rentals to pay more than 100% of my MF's in the first 3 months of this year, and still had plenty of points left for vacations. More than half of my points were used at 50% discount and included upgrades. I had unlimited housekeeping credits, unlimited transactions, and plenty of free guest certificates.

Got it thanks! So when you say you used more than half your points at a 50% discount I’m assuming you mean within the 60 day booking window that comes with VIP? And these were all for your own vacations as opposed to points used for rentals? How do VIP Platinum folks typically transact rentals? Do you advertise somewhere? Do you advertise the points to others or actual weeks of booked vacations that you book beforehand? Just trying to better understand the specific process used to use points for rentals to cover MFs here.


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skotrla

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I’m going to use the CPA analogy here. You can twist these spreadsheets and break evens to which ever side you want.
We are talking vacations using disposable income.
There are way to many variables to assume anything with these spreadsheets that don’t even have a dollar value attached to them.
What value do you put on being able to pick a room number:
I’m not going to look at the garbage dumpster or parking ramp.
What’s it worth to be able to sit on your balcony with a view?
That’s just one example as some will say there’s no guarantee on room numbers but I’ve had good luck reserving room numbers.
One owner may get discounts and or upgrades on most of thier reservations while the next owners gets very little.
Do what you think is best for you and your family and that you are comfortable doing financially. There are NO wrong or right answers on ownership every owner will have their own priorities and preferences.
If you want to look at the return on money invested in vacations stay home and invest the money if thats the deciding factor.
Using these spreadsheets no one would ever own DVC. Try going on the DVC thread with spreadsheet on how they should own Wyndham instead of DVC and see what kind of response you get

Just because a spreadsheet spits out a number doesn't mean it spits out an answer - I agree with you that the decision is personal and that there are intangible things you can't easily put a price on.

However, this kind of analysis can at least get you pointed in the right direction. If the results say that it will cost you $x more over some time period but you'll get benefit y, then you can decide if benefit y over the time period has value to you. If the result said it was going to cost you $50K over some number of years to make room requests that may not be honored, and that's a good value to you, then at least you are paying the $50K with your eyes wide open. Just because something is comfortable financially doesn't mean it's the right thing to do - there's always an opportunity cost.

This spreadsheet is comparing two vacation options of spending x Wyndham points per year. The point is not the amount you will spend doing Option 1 or Option 2 - the point is the difference between the two options.

Not sure what this has to do with DVC.

-Scott
 

skotrla

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As VIP Platinum, I used my points for rentals to pay more than 100% of my MF's in the first 3 months of this year, and still had plenty of points left for vacations. More than half of my points were used at 50% discount and included upgrades. I had unlimited housekeeping credits, unlimited transactions, and plenty of free guest certificates.

What's your maintenance cost $/1K? It sounds like you the Wyndham program is working well for you. I'm an HICV Elite owner and the HICV program is working well for me - I'd like to expand into another program and am trying to figure out if Wyndham is the right one.

-Scott
 

bendadin

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Got it thanks! So when you say you used more than half your points at a 50% discount I’m assuming you mean within the 60 day booking window that comes with VIP? And these were all for your own vacations as opposed to points used for rentals? How do VIP Platinum folks typically transact rentals? Do you advertise somewhere? Do you advertise the points to others or actual weeks of booked vacations that you book beforehand? Just trying to better understand the specific process used to use points for rentals to cover MFs here.


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So I was a nothing with resale only (well according to My Club Wyndham account, I still am.) So as a nothing with no discounts or upgrades, I used 350,500 points on reservations. So I was left paying $800 for my 500k points that I have remaining. It really wasn't why I bought, though.
 

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Just because a spreadsheet spits out a number doesn't mean it spits out an answer - I agree with you that the decision is personal and that there are intangible things you can't easily put a price on.

However, this kind of analysis can at least get you pointed in the right direction. If the results say that it will cost you $x more over some time period but you'll get benefit y, then you can decide if benefit y over the time period has value to you. If the result said it was going to cost you $50K over some number of years to make room requests that may not be honored, and that's a good value to you, then at least you are paying the $50K with your eyes wide open. Just because something is comfortable financially doesn't mean it's the right thing to do - there's always an opportunity cost.

This spreadsheet is comparing two vacation options of spending x Wyndham points per year. The point is not the amount you will spend doing Option 1 or Option 2 - the point is the difference between the two options.

Not sure what this has to do with DVC.

-Scott
Your last comment on DVC. I thought the same thing the first time you started this spreadsheet analysis stuff trying to compare HIVC to Wyndham.

I think it’s pretty simple and boils down to just a few things to decide such as:
Resale,developer or developer with PICs. Under 400k points is automatic resale.

When your buying from Wyndham a low MF resort cost $190 per 1k points- CWA cost $145 per 1k points. $2 difference in MF. I don’t need a spreadsheet to tell me that takes 22 1/2 years at 0 interest.
I chose CWA - Richelle chose low MF. Who’s right and who’s wrong? I say both are right we both did what we felt was best for us personally.

For 700k resale points with low MFs at $10 per 1k points is $7,000 - 700k points using PICs is $30,000 and end up with about the same MF as the resale points. That’s $23,000 more than resale to become VIP Gold. Your spreadsheet can never show if one comes out ahead or behind because there’s absolutely no way to predict what the owner is going to receive in benefits over 10 or 20 years. Economy turns south benefits will be easier to get we know that from post 2008. The only decision is a personal one if you feel like you want to be VIP Gold for $23,000 more and I don’t think a spreadsheet can answer that.

All points purchased from Wyndham will never come out ahead on a spreadsheet and I don’t need a spreadsheet to show me that. The only decision then becomes low MF or CWA. Again I’ll take CWA with it’s ARP and lower up front cost. Some go this way even though any spreadsheet will show it doesn’t make $ sense and yet they’re glad they did and are happy campers. I’m glad they’re happy! Maybe they wanted to be Gold or Platinum and didn’t want to mess with buying PICs and worry about they’re PICs staying.

My point is the following example using 2 families with the same income level going to Disney on vacation:
Family A budgets $10,000
Family B the money wise or penny pinchers budgets $5,500
Family B spouse ask their investment person what if we invested $5,000 with you over 20 years. Answer- I can turn that $5k into $20,000
I will guarantee you one spouse in family B will say we shouldn’t go to Disney. We’ll stay home and go to the local amusement park. We’ll spend $500 and invest the $5,000 that will be $20,000 in 20 years.

Family B spouses pass away with a good chunk of money the kids are going to inherit. We’ve all seen it those kids are going to Disney now.
Did the parents see the joy and glee in their kids faces at Disney. No

If you want to use a spreadsheet to make dollar sense spent on vacations. Your not going!! That’s my point
 
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