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My Experience with Hilton Grand Vacation Resale Department

Discussion in 'Hilton Grand Vacations Club / HGVC' started by Juxtapose, Jan 27, 2017.

  1. Mosescan

    Mosescan TUG Member

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    This needs to be presented to someone in management who can see the numbers and realize they could increase profits. If it will make them more money then they would do it. BUT there has to be a big enough increase in profits to make it worth their while.
     
  2. CalGalTraveler

    CalGalTraveler TUG Member

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    Agree. In addition to easy profit (this would be akin to adding another fee), this would differentiate the HGVC brand with a unique way to add more comfort to the buyer. Too many people have heard the horror stories of being locked in to a timeshare or having family/health issues and not being able to use; this affects resale value as well as makes it harder to sell developer because of stories on the Internet.

    I also see it as a big cost savings of not having to hire so many lawyers and collection agencies to manage delinquencies. They could offer this service until the owner is able to get back on his/her feet again or is able to sell.

    If they had a program like this, I would be inclined to buy more units because I know I would be covered for excess years when I don't need the points.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
  3. GTLINZ

    GTLINZ TUG Review Crew: Veteran TUG Member

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    I believe that Hilton does rent HGVC units thru hilton.com - but they are not returning any of that to any owner that I know of ... o_O
     
  4. CalGalTraveler

    CalGalTraveler TUG Member

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    They are marketing inventory that they own. I am referring to working with owners to rent their ownership interest via Hilton.com etc.
     
  5. Mosescan

    Mosescan TUG Member

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    They do it in Scotland. 20% commission and 4% VAT. That’s one of the reasons I own there.
     
    bizaro86 and CalGalTraveler like this.
  6. Arimaas

    Arimaas TUG Member

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    I believe Wyndham allows owners to put their points into a pool, and then others can rent them. I just bought into Wyndham and waiting for the sale to close, so don't know the ins and outs yet. They also let you convert your points into maintenance fee charges (obviously at a terrible rate). Lastly, an interesting program they have is Wyndham Ovation, where they will take back the Timeshare from the owner (they don't pay the owner anything, but it gets the unit off the owners hands - also I believe sometimes Wyndham will through some points at the owner - enough for a few years of vacations). I think Wyndham does this to keep the resales down (they don't have ROFR).
     
  7. CalGalTraveler

    CalGalTraveler TUG Member

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    That's interesting. Can you provide more details on the program? e.g. do you have to reserve then deposit it for rent at a certain time? what if they don't find a renter? Are owners realizing a profit? If so how much?
     
  8. DallasLoneStar

    DallasLoneStar Guest

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    (searching for HGVC resale 5.8-8.4k, preferably Valdoro)
    Funny story, the whole way I even found out about HGVC was about 5-6 weeks ago booking the trip I am leaving for tomorrow... 5 nights at Grand Waikikian for my cousin's wedding. The hotel was sold out (or only had super expensive rooms) and I am staying with my sister since neither of our spouses could go, so I thought great, 1BR suite with 2 double beds, ocean view, sounds better than just a normal hotel room, a little more privacy for getting changed etc. Got 5 nights for $2,161 all in (with taxes, resort charge of $175, etc). Then I got the "will you stay on the line for XXX HHonors points to hear about blah blah" and I thought fine I have a few minutes.

    You know how the story goes... I ended up taking 3 nights in DC for something like $200 (I go there for work all the time, and I am self employed so its on my dime) plus after I her their timeshare schpiel (with my wife) I get another $200 towards a stay at a Hilton. Never really took timeshares seriously but I started looking into this HGVC and fast forward about 5 weeks and here I am...

    Spent a ton of time reading about all this and looking at listed units, but it was time well spent since we will definitely not be buying retail when we go to DC in September. For now we are thinking about buying at Valdoro but since those don't go cheap, we may try to rent and visit this summer.

    And I got way off topic but the point was, Hilton did rent out the Grand Waikikian unit to me directly. I sort of didn't realize I was actually renting a timeshare.
     
  9. DallasLoneStar

    DallasLoneStar Guest

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    (searching for HGVC resale 5.8-8.4k, preferably Valdoro)
    Are we really 100% sure they account somehow for what days are "owned" by owners versus ones in "inventory?" Since there are still issues with owners not being able to get certain locations/units/weeks they want, I am just curious. Can Hilton only rent them out within 30-45 days of check in? Otherwise I feel like they would be taking spots owners could use. I do understand that if there are 100 1 BR units and they have sold 2000 weeks of 1BRs at that resort with a 30 week platinum season, then there are 1000 platinum weeks (10 per unit) left that are technically "unsold." Just curious if any of this is in writing, part of your contract, etc.
     
  10. Mosescan

    Mosescan TUG Member

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    At Craigendarroch where I own we have fixed weeks. You just don’t convert your week to points. They will try and rent it out for you. If it’s not rented by 35 days prior you can convert to points or go yourself. Rents vary depending on when you own.
     
    CalGalTraveler likes this.
  11. SmithOp

    SmithOp TUG Member

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    I’m not sure where you are getting your information about owners not being able to get units they want, I have never been denied booking what I own at 12-9 months in advance during home season. There is nothing in any contracts that guarantee anything else, club and open season is first come, first served.

    I couldn’t follow your example, the math made my head spin.

    Its all spelled out in the Club Rules, you should download and read it in full, here is the relevant section on use by HGV:

    Use of Accommodations by HGV.

    Beginning the first day of the Open Season reservation window, Hilton Grand Vacations reserves the right to utilize accommodations for its own purposes including for exchange, inspection visits, promotions, rentals, special programs, or any other purposes in Hilton Grand Vacations’ sole discretion. Additionally, when a Member exchanges their ClubPoints for benefits or services other than Affiliated Resort accommodations, such as ClubPartner Perk reservations or Honors points, Hilton Grand Vacations must pay the third party for the Member’s use thereof. As such, Hilton Grand Vacations, in its sole discretion, may rent or otherwise use the accommodations relinquished by that Member or other unused inventory to cover the cost of such third-party benefits and services.

    In renting accommodations as described herein, HGV may use historical reservation data for the property to forecast the accommodations projected to remain unused by Club Members or to be used by Club Members for other benefits and services requiring monetization by HGVC and rent such accommodations prior to the start of the Open Season reservation window in order to maximize occupancy levels at the property.

    Additionally, inventory owned by a developer or an affiliated resort and not yet sold, may be made available for reservation by Members or used by the developer for any purpose including but not limited to, exchange, rental, Elite privileges and promotional purposes.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
     
  12. CalGalTraveler

    CalGalTraveler TUG Member

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    Your rental was of an unsold HGVC developer inventory unit. It is not taking away from owner's inventory as those must to be set aside for owners by law - there was a lawsuit a few years ago with RCI (or some company like it.)
     
  13. DallasLoneStar

    DallasLoneStar Guest

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    (searching for HGVC resale 5.8-8.4k, preferably Valdoro)
    I guess at the end of the day, what I mean is they have to have some sort of formula or system to determine what is “available” to rent. My hunch is that “open season” is basically competing (but at a discounted rate) with online and phone reservations from Hilton. But here is a more extreme example:

    What if all 2000 weeks of a resort’s platinum season 1BR owners of a resort with 3000 platinums weeks all decided they want Fourth of July week but there are only 100 of those?

    I know that would never happen. But what if only 5% of platinum week owners really wanted to go that week. Wouldn’t there be a lot of competition? Am I getting the math wrong? I hope I am because it doesn’t seem that far fetched that 5% of the current owners of a hot summer season in a popular resort wouldn’t want to go during the same week. If so, it would be fully booked. And in essence, isn’t that mathematically how a week gets fully booked? I guess the question is how quickly can or does that happen?

    At 12:05am ET? By 3pm that same day? Or is it something like a month later?

    It obviously happens at some point during the 3 month window, or at 9 months anyone could book Valdoro for 4th of July week if they did it at 12:01am 9 months out!

    Now, I don’t think they are renting owners weeks on the website. But I am curious when they do start renting them. Could I have made this reservation for Waikiki three months ago and then an owner at another HGVC resort would have then seen no availability?
     
  14. JIMinNC

    JIMinNC TUG Member

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    Your answer is in post #36.

    Basically, anytime an owner converts their week to Hilton Honors points, HGV has to pay Hilton hotels for those Honors points. So HGV gains control of that week and can rent it on hilton.com for cash to recoup the out of pocket cost they paid for this Hilton Honors points. Unsold intervals are also controlled by HGV and they have the option to rent those as well. Finally, they know from historical booking patterns the weeks that will likely have unreserved weeks (probably NOT your July 4 example, of course!). So, as post #36 says, "HGV may use historical reservation data for the property to forecast the accommodations projected to remain unused by Club Members or to be used by Club Members for other benefits and services requiring monetization by HGVC [i.e. Honors Points conversions] and rent such accommodations prior to the start of the Open Season reservation window in order to maximize occupancy levels at the property."
     
    SmithOp likes this.
  15. CalGalTraveler

    CalGalTraveler TUG Member

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    It sounds like you are asking two questions:

    1) Can HGVC take a popular week and rent it out?

    Possible but unlikely, see Post #36. Beyond the sales mess, HGVC strives to be fair to owners and provide a good experience.

    2) Can there be too many owners vying for for a popular week?

    Yes. However this is a bigger problem with systems like Vistana Westin and Marriott Ocean Club where 50 weeks a year are platinum on Maui and all owners want the summer or whale season. Owners frequently complain that they cannot get access to their units during popular weeks.

    HGVC realizes less pressure for this because

    a) HGVC limits Platinum seasons so you don't have all 50 weeks able to secure a popular home week.

    b) Because HGVC offers additional flexibility with points to book exact days and room upgrade or downgrade, many owners don't use their home week, which makes for Club reservation opportunities. YMMV on the ski properties, but popular HGVC Hawaii properties can be reserved at 9 months except for event weeks. I was able to book a Park City studio for February about 4 months out with Club reservations when there were cancellations.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  16. GTLINZ

    GTLINZ TUG Review Crew: Veteran TUG Member

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    I do understand what you are saying. I am suggesting that they may also be renting out unused owner inventory. Do you know for sure they cannot? If they can, then why help the owners if you can profit from it?
     
  17. jestme

    jestme Guest

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    I agree. When I bought, I was told he Lagoon tower and the Kalia tower were virtually sold out. Then they built the Grand Waikikian, and about 5 years ago, they said it was sold out, so they built the Grand Islander. Each time, they pre-sell the buildings, but give out points to the owners, even though the building isn't there yet to provide usable inventory. Then there are the familiarization trips they sell for around $1700 each, a bunch of which are used in Hawaii. Add to that, club season exchanges into the HHV, bonus points and bulk deposits to RCI.
    Every time I go, I hear from convention attendees that they are staying in the Lagoon or Waikikian tower. Lots of them, and they booked them months in advance. Where does all that room inventory come from? We keep hearing it comes from people who exchange for HHonors points, or cruises, etc. That seems like a lot of inventory to be holding, and really be paying MF's for. Maybe I'm wrong, however, I can book the Lagoon on Hilton.com almost a year out, when Club Season hasn't even opened yet.
    I agree, an external audit of their point usage would be greatly accepted by the owners.
     
    hurnik likes this.
  18. tk25

    tk25 TUG Member

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    I think that 2200 point Elara Package with over $800 annual fees is worth at most $1.0 and in fact you may have to pay someone to take it off your hands.
     
  19. Juxtapose

    Juxtapose Guest

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    As a follow-up to this story... I was eventually contacted by a representative from HGV who offered me 2200 bonus points with no apparent stipulations (simply to appease me) which I felt was a bit unusual. I guess they do have a PR department...

    I stayed at one of the Orlando properties last week (using my points for the year and that bonus) and went to a sales pitch. I told the guy my situation and asked him to bypass the show (sales stuff) and simply talk the numbers. I told him about the resale market and my awareness of the differences (or lack there of) in what a person gets buying there vs. from him. I was also surprised that the sales rep I had was perfectly fine engaging in this. I informed him that I felt my timeshare was worthless, and he agreed. He suggested (of course) that I buy more to make it a better investment. I chuckled at the word investment, and we had a short talk about where that money actually goes. He couldn't help by revert back to the sales pitch side over and over but I kept directing him back to the point...

    I do enjoy using HGV properties and could see myself using between 5000-7000 a year for the next 30+ years... but I'm not willing to put $30,000 or more down to get there. I said I view the $14,900 I spent already as a mistake, and I'm not looking to make another mistake to cover over the previous one. The best I could get him to negotiate down to was...

    $15,400 more (plus $1,100 in closing and that $300 app fee) which he stated was 5% off of the rates they had in 2015 when I originally bought - moving up to a Gold 1 Bd room (I believe) in Elara by selling back to them what I own and applying it towards the 5000 point one. He said it was a special thing they were doing for buyers in my situation... he admitted it was an attempt to get up up to a respectable level of ownership and spent a good deal of time bashing and distancing himself (and HGV) from the guy who sold me what I currently own. He talked as though HGV doesn't allow that kind of selling to happen anymore (right...). After I sat there running numbers in my head (value per points over 10 and 20 years) he eventually asked if I was ok... I said "yeah I'm a numbers guy... just doing math right now..." he left me alone for 5 minutes and came back and asked what he could do to make the sale work. He knew I was about to walk. So I said... honestly... dropping that price $5,000 and I would probably go for it. I said, but as I understanding... you guys can't do that? He confirmed. So I said... "that is where you guys offer bonus points huh?" and he nodded. But then he said they almost never do when they already are giving things away at such a reduced rate. So I said... ok I guess we are done here. So he asked what amount of bonus points would get it done. I said... "honestly 20,000 if I could use them over the next 5 years"... because I'd value that at about $5,000. He laughed and said "seriously?" I knew he couldn't do that. So he offered 5,000 and I stood up to leave, then he offered 10,000 bonus points with the prices above.

    So for roughly $17,000 I would move to 5000 points a year and my MF would only go up about $100. This is a better deal than what I started with, but I would imagine $17,000 in the resale market will get me a lot more. I think my best bet at this point is to sell what I had... even if I just give it away... and buy resale. What do you guys think?

    I know I could get 7000 points or more on the resale market for a relatively similar MF as Elara for less then that $17,000 - the only concern I have is ability to unload the 2200 points I currently have - will I have to pay someone to take it? Can I give it away? What is the best way to go about that?

    I have 7 days left to rescind the above offer for 5000 points... which I will do by default this week unless people advise otherwise. Wanted to ask the experts here what you all think. Appreciate the help.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
  20. CalGalTraveler

    CalGalTraveler TUG Member

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    @Juxtapose Thanks for sharing the update. It is informative to hear what they proposed.

    3Rs: Rescind, Research, buy Resale.

    For $17,000 you could buy resale two (that's 2!) 7000 point Vegas units at Blvd., Paradise, Flamingo, or Elara. These go for about $1 a point plus $1,500 closing fees i.e. approx. $8,500 - $9,500 all in for 7K annual points. You can do better for 5k points but will pay the same maintenance fee. Use the extra $8,500 difference to spend on plane tickets, activities and meals for your future vacations. Look on Tug and Redweek for listings.

    Sell/give away your old unit, or simply stay and enjoy, or add the 2,200 points to to your 7K to make 9.2k points a year; the maintenance fees are not bad at Elara and it is a nice resort.

    We feel your pain as many of us made our first purchase via the developer and overpaid. However it is a sunk cost now. Most Tuggers have offset the difference with lower cost resale purchases and cost-efficient platinum MF units with a lower price per point.

    Good luck!
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
  21. JIMinNC

    JIMinNC TUG Member

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    Earlier this year, I bought a resale 7000 point HGVC Sea World for $6500 plus closing fees/transfer fee/activation fee (all-in cost about $8,000). Annual maintenance fee of about $1100 ($0.16/point), so including club dues annual costs are $1270 ($0.18/point).
     
  22. magmue

    magmue TUG Member

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    But you'd still have a gold week instead of a platinum week. Platinum 1 BR Grand Plus at Elara would give you 7800 points per year, for a very similar MF of $883/year. And with platinum, it might retain some value when time comes to sell someday. He sold you someone else's semi-worthless 1 BR gold week while telling you what a "special thing" they were doing for you in taking back your semi-worthless studio gold week.
     
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  23. Juxtapose

    Juxtapose Guest

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    I'm just being a little paranoid about the language in my rescission letter here since the purchase included the transfer of equity from a previous contract. Does the following look right?

    ===

    Gentlemen:

    Regarding contract 35-54xxxx for purchase of a timeshare at Elara Resort signed March 29th 2018. I am exercising my legal right to cancel this contract. I expect a full refund of my deposit of $x,xxx.xx. Also please cancel the transfer of equity from my old contract 35-51xxxx. Do not make any additional charges to my credit card. Please confirm my legal rescission in writing.

    xxxxxxxxxxx
    ===

    I added the part that says "Also please cancel the transfer of equity from my old contract 35-51xxxx." Is it necessary to have that in there?

    I added it because there is an individual set of forms earlier in the packet signed where only that old contract is listed (as a sale) - later in the packet it then refers to the transfer contact as old and the newer number contact as new. Most rescissions seem to not involve the transfer of equity so I didn't want leaving that out to void it (again maybe I'm just being paranoid?) My old contract was 35-51xxxx and the new one (that I'm trying to rescind) is 35-54xxxx. In all liklihood the cancellation of 35-54xxxx (new contract) includes cancelling everything included within, which also covers the transfer of equity from the other (old contract). Right?
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
  24. GTLINZ

    GTLINZ TUG Review Crew: Veteran TUG Member

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    I completely agree. HGVC is great at peddling GOLD and even SILVER units which are not good at MF per point - and usually worth very little on the open market and therefore hard to sell later. A regular plat 1br in Vegas or Orlando is 4800 points and less MF than a 2br and not too expensive. A gold 2br unit for 17k is not a good deal. The ONLY silver lining is that the quoted price should include closing costs, which are getting expensive - but that still is only a small slice of that 17k.

    I will use 2k as a worst case scenario for closing costs - it might cost you 5k after closing to get a Plat 1br 4800 unit in Vegas with comparable MF to your Elara studio (which is the real issue - that MF for 2200 points is very high). Then if you paid closing costs and gave your unit away, you spend 2k. 7k is better than 17k ! Or you could go for 7000 points and maybe spend 10k with closing and 2k to get rid of your unit. Still better and you have more points and a comparable MF to their deal.

    You can , as suggested above, go for an even better deal pm MFs per point but because of that ratio you tend to pay a premium to purchase. You may find one that saves you enough to make it worthwhile - just chart out a 10 year comparision. My scenarios are not as imaginative but plentiful. And Vegas tends to have lower MFs.

    The number of ways to beat that deal is staggering.
     
  25. chriskre

    chriskre TUG Member

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    Enchanted Isle resort.
    If MF's are a big concern you might want to consider an EOY unit instead.
    I own a few EOY units for a few reasons, one is to keep my costs down,
    another reason is so I can own in several systems and widen my vacation
    options and in case things go south with one developer I'm not over
    committed.

    I own an EOY Gold at Tuscany that I paid very little for in the
    recession. I've done well with it mostly because I live in FL and there are
    alot of HGVC resorts here but I also supplement with Open Season and
    RCI exchanges into other HGVC resorts if I need more than one unit.
    I've done this in Vegas and Hawaii without a problem coordinating
    the club ressies with the RCI exchange. You could use the other EOY
    timeshare to get the RCI HGVC unit.

    You can also bank and borrow points from one year to another to
    have more points. The only negative is that you still have to pay a club
    fee on the off years but I have managed to make my EOY function as
    an annual for the years that I've owned it and have taken an HGVC
    vacation every single year.

    Rescind that puppy and do some more research.
    You aren't quite ready to commit to another possible mistake.
    Trust me you will probably be able to get that deal again next year
    with a new guy or just head to Orlando. LOL
     

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