Minimum purchase to enroll a PIC

[Lisa P]

I finally understand. Have wondered... so thanks Ron. Very interesting. (Made me chuckle too.)

 

[paxsarah]

Thats what pissed them off. Not the rentals, not stripping contracts, not even that I sold off the stripped contracts....What pissed them off was that they were the ones that bought the stripped contracts.

LOL! We're sometimes critical here of people who buy Wyndham points without really knowing what they're buying, but it's kind of the ultimate irony that Wyndham itself was buying those contracts without really understanding their own system or why those contracts were being offered back to the mother ship.

 

[Marathoner]

I didnt have a business, I had a hustle, that worked for a while and then it didnt... not for me, or anyone else..

You shouldn't be too critical of yourself - you specialized in New Orleans event week rentals (Mardi Gras, Jazz fest, etc).

This would have been profitable whether you were credit pooling or not, right?

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk

 

[skotrla]

Yes I was Platinum, but I did it for $6000 down and $150 a month and even that was too much except for three things that cant be done anymore


Platinum is much more valuable than Silver. 30 guest confirms and unlimited transactions made a big difference, but the big deal was that I learned from tuggers was that you could become Platinum with just a 63000 point direct purchase, ($12000)But even $12000 was too much, Ultimately I figured out how to get VIP with all resale contracts. You only needed 1 million VIP eligible points. You could then add up to a total of 40 contracts per account and all the points got the discount But even that didnt help much because the reservations I got within 60 days of check in were not good rentals.. What made my accounts profitable was learning the cancel/rebook/upgrade trick... Everything could be discounted and you cant do that any more But that aint all........

Excellent post - you should write a book!

-Scott

 

[Richelle]

You shouldn't be too critical of yourself - you specialized in New Orleans event week rentals (Mardi Gras, Jazz fest, etc).

This would have been profitable whether you were credit pooling or not, right?

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk

Probably less profitable because he would have booked less rooms, but you are correct that it would have been profitable still.

 

[ronparise]

Excellent post - you should write a book!

-Scott

I’ve thought about that but I have to be careful but to violate the NDA I signed

 

[ronparise]

You shouldn't be too critical of yourself - you specialized in New Orleans event week rentals (Mardi Gras, Jazz fest, etc).

This would have been profitable whether you were credit pooling or not, right?

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk

Exactly right if I had not done the cancel and rebook and I had not borrowed future years points with the credit pool I still could have made reservations and rented them. And yes I would have said I had a small rental business. But it would have been very small and not very profitable. Consider this; a one bedroom at la Belle Maison is 121000 points for 4 day weekend (I think I remember that correctly) at $5/1000 points plus a guest confirm that’s $700. I was renting these weekends for $1200; so a $500 profit

In my best year I was able to get 17 Mardi Gras reservations at La Belle Maison so that year I got a $8500 profit There are other good weekends in New Orleans and you can get the reservations at 10 months but they are not nearly as profitable . Essence Music Fest for example I rented the 4 day weekend for $600 so I would lose $100 on each reservation

 

[bobbyoc23]

LOL! We're sometimes critical here of people who buy Wyndham points without really knowing what they're buying, but it's kind of the ultimate irony that Wyndham itself was buying those contracts without really understanding their own system or why those contracts were being offered back to the mother ship.

But they must have been able to find out pretty easily before accepting them, right? Or did they not check the estoppel? And once they got the stripped contracts in their possession they wouldn’t have been able to sell them to new prospects for the next couple years, right? They can’t just reload them, that would put more points into the system than are supposed to be. I’m glad it worked out for you Ron. Maybe Wyndham should have offered to hire you as their in-house subject matter expert... clearly they don’t understand their own product

 

[Jimag]

I saw some people post that they were told that you have to purchase a minimum of 105,000 points to enroll a PIC. That might be the case if you buy at a resort. I was told by a person at Wyndham corporate sales (also called telesales), that the minimum is 49,000 points (around $10k). You can enroll up to two fixed weeks with that 49,000 points package. I enrolled a four bedroom at Williamsburg Plantation that I got on eBay for $28 total. I mention this, because I don’t want someone overpaying to enroll a PIC or to have to deal with a resort sales person. At least the people at corporate sales have their calls recorded. The resort sales guys won’t let you record the conversation. Hope this helps some of you.

Update:

Some of you reading this may not know much about PIC. PIC stands for Personal Interval Choice. Page 359 of the 2014-2015 directory explains more, but this is the nutshell version. If you have a qualifying fixed non-Wyndham week timeshare, you can enroll up to two of them in PIC. There are two flavors of PIC. PIC Express which is good for five years. Then there is PIC Plus which is permanent for as long as you own both the fixed week and points contract. Neither PIC contracts are transferable on the resale market. You can only enroll a fixed week at the time of a retail purchase. Each fixed week has a fixed point value:


one bedroom 105,000 points


two bedroom 154,000 points


three (or more) bedrooms 254,000 points.


With PIC plus, you can use those points towards VIP status and to make reservations ($89 fee per week IF you use the points for bookings). With PIC Express, it only counts towards VIP status. You cannot use those points to make bookings. To enroll a fixed week into either PIC program, you need to make a point purchase. The minimum purchase is 49,000 points if you buy through corporate ($10,000). If you buy through the resorts, they will likely make you buy 105,000 points ($20k-$25k). When you buy those 49,000 points, you can enroll up to two fixed weeks for a maximum if 508,000 points (two 3 bedrooms). Keep in mind, you still have to pay the maintenance fees for the fixed week, as well as the Wyndham program fee if .56/1000 w/o Plus partners or .58/1000 w/Plus Partners. My fixed week has a maintenance fee of $849 a year. Add in the program fee and my total fees for that fixed week is $996.32 per year for a three bedroom. That works out to $3.92/1000 points. Cheaper then the majority of points contracts.

Reading through this thread (as of 11:30 p.m., 6/19) has been interesting and informative. I hate to admit, however, that I am still a bit confused about the PIC Plus Program. Actually I am also confused by the PIC Express Program, primarily because I can't see why anyone would choose PIC Express over PIC Plus, but I will leave that question for another time. With regard to the PIC Plus Program, I compared the Plus program requirements set forth in the Club Wyndham Plus Member's Directory 2014-15 with the program requirements set forth in the 2018-19 version of the Directory. The following passage is an excerpt from pages 292-293 of 2018-2019 Directory (the underlined and bracketed language in the passage appeared in the Club Wyndham Plus Member’s Directory 2014-2015 and has been struck from the latest version of the requirements).

PIC Program

Personal Interval Choice (PIC) Plus Program

Eligibility Requirements: Membership in the PIC Plus Program is available with a new vacation ownership purchase from Wyndham Vacation Resorts or to CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Members who pay the PIC Plus Membership Enrollment Fee. [Membership is limited to five consecutive years for those who pay the PIC Plus Membership Enrollment Fee.] In order to be eligible, non-Wyndham week(s) must be: (1) affiliated with RCI and (2) not currently participating in a points-based program, including RCI Points. Members will be responsible for maintenance fees on their non-Wyndham week(s). [Exchanges must be made at least 9 months prior to the check-in date of the non-Wyndham week(s). A maximum of two non-Wyndham weeks may be enrolled in the PIC Plus program at the time of enrollment in the PIC Plus program. Please refer to the Club Wyndham Plus Member's Directory for additional terms and conditions.]
​

The revised version appears to have made only one substantive change, but it is an important one. Previously, membership in the PIC Plus program was limited to five consecutive years for those folks who elected to pay a PIC Plus membership enrollment fee instead of making a new purchase of Wyndham direct points. It appears the five year membership limitation for those electing to pay the PIC Plus program enrollment fee as opposed to making a new purchase has been removed in the new rules. This could be significant. The other language deleted from the previous version of the requirements does not appear to make substantive changes to the program.

Does anyone know the amount of the PIC Plus enrollment fee? I'm fairly certain the enrollment fee is distinct from the annual $89 exchange fee for each PICed week. The exchange fee is an annual fee, correct?

Both versions of the Member's Directory advise: "More information is available by visiting a Member Services representative at your nearest Club Wyndham resort." Can anyone suggest what corporate office to contact on PIC matters? Dealing with a resort sales representative may not be the best approach.

 

[BibbityBoppity]

It used to be about 50000 per week. Maximum of two weeks.

As I see it you could do 254000 + 254000 + 105000= 613000 points and silver. Cost about $20000

If you already own a small contract or buy another small number of points ( at least 87000 points) you would get to gold. So your total purchase would be about $40000

And if you wanted to be Platinum your total “investment” (for the Wyndham points (500000) would be about $80000.


As I see it the only two benefits are the guest confirms, and discounts within 60 days of check it.i don’t think you can count on upgrades) If you got 50% discounts on half your reservations you would have the effective use of another 500000 points

Rather then spending $80000 I think I would rather buy 150000 million points on the secondary market the extra 500000 will cost you an additional $3000 or so per year in maintenance fees... so about $25 years to break even and that assume you pay cash. I f you financed it I don’t think you would ever break even

Of course if you wanted a lot more points (I had 30 million) and were able to rent a bunch at a profit, I could justify an investment of $80000 or so

It’s 49,000 new points to enroll up to 2 PIC Plus/Express properties.

 

[Richelle]

Reading through this thread (as of 11:30 p.m., 6/19) has been interesting and informative. I hate to admit, however, that I am still a bit confused about the PIC Plus Program. Actually I am also confused by the PIC Express Program, primarily because I can't see why anyone would choose PIC Express over PIC Plus, but I will leave that question for another time. With regard to the PIC Plus Program, I compared the Plus program requirements set forth in the Club Wyndham Plus Member's Directory 2014-15 with the program requirements set forth in the 2018-19 version of the Directory. The following passage is an excerpt from pages 292-293 of 2018-2019 Directory (the underlined and bracketed language in the passage appeared in the Club Wyndham Plus Member’s Directory 2014-2015 and has been struck from the latest version of the requirements).

PIC Program

Personal Interval Choice (PIC) Plus Program

Eligibility Requirements: Membership in the PIC Plus Program is available with a new vacation ownership purchase from Wyndham Vacation Resorts or to CLUB WYNDHAM Plus Members who pay the PIC Plus Membership Enrollment Fee. [Membership is limited to five consecutive years for those who pay the PIC Plus Membership Enrollment Fee.] In order to be eligible, non-Wyndham week(s) must be: (1) affiliated with RCI and (2) not currently participating in a points-based program, including RCI Points. Members will be responsible for maintenance fees on their non-Wyndham week(s). [Exchanges must be made at least 9 months prior to the check-in date of the non-Wyndham week(s). A maximum of two non-Wyndham weeks may be enrolled in the PIC Plus program at the time of enrollment in the PIC Plus program. Please refer to the Club Wyndham Plus Member's Directory for additional terms and conditions.]
​

The revised version appears to have made only one substantive change, but it is an important one. Previously, membership in the PIC Plus program was limited to five consecutive years for those folks who elected to pay a PIC Plus membership enrollment fee instead of making a new purchase of Wyndham direct points. It appears the five year membership limitation for those electing to pay the PIC Plus program enrollment fee as opposed to making a new purchase has been removed in the new rules. This could be significant. The other language deleted from the previous version of the requirements does not appear to make substantive changes to the program.

Does anyone know the amount of the PIC Plus enrollment fee? I'm fairly certain the enrollment fee is distinct from the annual $89 exchange fee for each PICed week. The exchange fee is an annual fee, correct?

Both versions of the Member's Directory advise: "More information is available by visiting a Member Services representative at your nearest Club Wyndham resort." Can anyone suggest what corporate office to contact on PIC matters? Dealing with a resort sales representative may not be the best approach.

PIC Plus enrollment fee is $2,395. Based on the language in both, it sounds like you can choose to pay the enrollment fee instead of making a new purchase, but everyone is saying you have to make a new purchase. No one can tell me why it says “Or”. My telesales rep checked with her PIC guy and owner care. Both said you have to make a new purchase.

The only reason I can see someone using PIC Express is if they have a points based membership with RCI. Points based is not eligible for PIC Plus but you can use it for PIC Express. If they have a fixed week they enroll into PIC Express it might be because for some reason they cannot exchange it like they do for the ones in PIC Plus. Or the sales guy doesn’t know what he is doing.

The number for corporate sales is‭ (800) 786-6764‬. I have a rep I use and I can provide a direct email if you would prefer.

 

[Jimag]

PIC Plus enrollment fee is $2,395. Based on the language in both, it sounds like you can choose to pay the enrollment fee instead of making a new purchase, but everyone is saying you have to make a new purchase. No one can tell me why it says “Or”. My telesales rep checked with her PIC guy and owner care. Both said you have to make a new purchase.

The only reason I can see someone using PIC Express is if they have a points based membership with RCI. Points based is not eligible for PIC Plus but you can use it for PIC Express. If they have a fixed week they enroll into PIC Express it might be because for some reason they cannot exchange it like they do for the ones in PIC Plus. Or the sales guy doesn’t know what he is doing.

The number for corporate sales is‭ (800) 786-6764‬. I have a rep I use and I can provide a direct email if you would prefer.

Wow. The deleted language in the previous version of the Directory -- "Membership is limited to five consecutive years for those who pay the PIC Plus Membership Enrollment Fee." -- wouldn't have made sense unless paying the enrollment fee was an alternative to a new purchase of points.

What was up with that five-year period limitation on membership? If everyone paid the membership fee and made a new purchase of points, what did that language mean?

If the "or" is a typo in both versions of the Directory, does that mean everyone needs to make a new purchase and pay the enrollment fee of $2,395?

Maybe the answer is that the Directory is not an authoritative document and the Wyndham documents required to enroll a PIC clarify these points. Do you know of any other authoritative source setting forth PIC requirements or is the program what Wyndham says it is when you seek to make an enrollment?

 

[Richelle]

Wow. The deleted language in the previous version of the Directory -- "Membership is limited to five consecutive years for those who pay the PIC Plus Membership Enrollment Fee." -- wouldn't have made sense unless paying the enrollment fee was an alternative to a new purchase of points.

What was up with that five-year period limitation on membership? If everyone paid the membership fee and made a new purchase of points, what did that language mean?

If the "or" is a typo in both versions of the Directory, does that mean everyone needs to make a new purchase and pay the enrollment fee of $2,395?

Maybe the answer is that the Directory is not an authoritative document and the Wyndham documents required to enroll a PIC clarify these points. Do you know of any other authoritative source setting forth PIC requirements or is the program what Wyndham says it is when you seek to make an enrollment?

Other then the PIC enrollment form, I have not seen anything. Even the PIC enrollment form makes it sound like you can choose to pay the fee instead of buying new points.

 

[Jimag]

PIC Plus enrollment fee is $2,395. Based on the language in both, it sounds like you can choose to pay the enrollment fee instead of making a new purchase, but everyone is saying you have to make a new purchase. No one can tell me why it says “Or”. My telesales rep checked with her PIC guy and owner care. Both said you have to make a new purchase.

The only reason I can see someone using PIC Express is if they have a points based membership with RCI. Points based is not eligible for PIC Plus but you can use it for PIC Express. If they have a fixed week they enroll into PIC Express it might be because for some reason they cannot exchange it like they do for the ones in PIC Plus. Or the sales guy doesn’t know what he is doing.

The number for corporate sales is‭ (800) 786-6764‬. I have a rep I use and I can provide a direct email if you would prefer.

Thanks for the corporate sales number. I would like the name and e-mail of a reliable rep, if you don't mind providing it. Thanks again.

 

[Richelle]

Thanks for the corporate sales number. I would like the name and e-mail of a reliable rep, if you don't mind providing it. Thanks again.

Sent you a PM. I don’t like making her name public without her permission. I should probably ask if it’s ok to make it public.

 

[Jimag]

Other then the PIC enrollment form, I have not seen anything. Even the PIC enrollment form makes it sound like you can choose to pay the fee instead of buying new points.

Does everyone making a PIC enrollment need to pay the PIC membership fee? If so, that would really make the language in both the Directory and the PIC Application incongruous.

 

[Richelle]

Does everyone making a PIC enrollment need to pay the PIC membership fee? If so, that would really make the language in both the Directory and the PIC Application incongruous.

No, the fee is waived if you buy more points.

 

[Jimag]

Sent you a PM. I don’t like making her name public without her permission. I should probably ask if it’s ok to make it publ

No, the fee is waived if you buy more points.

This just keeps getting to be more and more of a puzzle. Who pays the fee and why, if it's not an alternative to a new purchase? This is just a rhetorical question, as I know you already said you don't have an answer.

 

[Avislo]

This is a interesting discussion. Has anyone actually picked one or two resorts without a purchase of developer points and if so, what was the fee, and would they post a copy of the contract redacting personal information.

 

[bendadin]

From what we were told, it is $2395, though it is waived with purchase

PIC Express wanted the fee and the new developer purchase after 5 years. But there is this word MAY that is in the regulations

 

[skotrla]

$2395 x 2 for 2 weeks of PIC and Silver would be way better than a $10,000 developer purchase. Has anyone tried this? For low maintenance units, that might be cheaper than buying Wyndham points units via resale?

-Scott

 

[Braindead]

The 25% discount is not near as important to me as is the later date for doing a Points Deposit. I can't put a price on having that later date as an option.

Agree the number one reason to get to Gold or especially Platinum is the point deposit feature.
With the credit pool it didn’t matter if you had all resale or Platinum for planning your point usage.

 

[Braindead]

Who pays the fee and why, if it's not an alternative to a new purchase? This is just a rhetorical question, as I know you already said you don't have an answer.

Waiving the $2,395 I think it’s just another sales gimmick on PIC Plus anyway.
Look at the money we are saving you with your new purchase
Wyndham trying to show you how great of a deal you are getting.

 

[CCdad]

I recall that owners of fixed weeks at legacy Wyndham resorts were charged the $2,395 fee to convert their fixed week contract into points (VIP qualfying points). With a new developer purchase you could negotiate to have the $2,395 fee waived just like for the PIC Plus fee.

 

[Jimag]

$2395 x 2 for 2 weeks of PIC and Silver would be way better than a $10,000 developer purchase. Has anyone tried this? For low maintenance units, that might be cheaper than buying Wyndham points units via resale?

-Scott

I didn't interpret the requirements related to the PIC Plus Membership Enrollment Fee as stating the fee was applied to each PICed week like the $89 transfer fee. I thought the Membership Fee was just that a fee for membership in the program without regard to whether you PICed one or two weeks. Of course, this matter is moot, if Wyndham doesn't apply the requirements according to their plain meaning, as reported earlier in this thread. And you couldn't argue the plain meaning of the words, because the PIC program is discretionary, although I would consider it to be bad faith if Wyndham, faced with the argument that the PIC membership fee is an alternative to a new purchase of direct points, said something like "oh yeah, not any longer."