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Marriott/Vistana overlay

jjking42

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I never enrolled in my MVC week in points and got out of the Marriott system because of the skim. I am a points guy and owned both Wyndham and HGVC at the time. The skim felt dishonest to me. I would consider enrolling a Vistana week in the MVC points program if it was cheap but I would never give up star options to due it. I would only use it if I thought it would be better value than exchanging with II.
 

CalGalTraveler

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If you have leftover enrollment points can you rent more points? Conversely can you rent out your extra enrollment points?
 

JIMinNC

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If you have leftover enrollment points can you rent more points? Conversely can you rent out your extra enrollment points?

Yes. MVC Legacy week (enrolled) points can be rented just like MVC Trust points. Right now the going rate appears to be in the $0.60 to $0.65 per point range.
 

GregT

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If you have leftover enrollment points can you rent more points? Conversely can you rent out your extra enrollment points?
Hello CalGal,

I believe you are referring to your Elected points (the points you get when you deposit your week with Marriott for that usage year), and yes those can be rented out, and you can also rent other owner's Elected points.

I only say this because the original post mentioned enrollment points, and sometimes Marriott has offered bonus points when people enroll their weeks. Those bonus points received at enrollment can not be transferred to another party. I got 800 bonus points when I enrolled my week and I don't remember doing anything with them.

The ability to transfer points is very powerful and is perhaps my favorite thing about the Marriott system.

Best,

Greg
 

4Sunsets

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After almost 10 years of promotion, MVC has only been able to get a little more than half (60%) of weeks owners to enroll. This is without a mandatory benefit because they had none.

I bet a high proportion of the weeks in the points trust are low season junk, so I question whether high season, premium properties will be easily available as the inventory may be quite limited. Unlike MVC, with SOs every property is automatically enrolled so you have a chance at the inventory.

For Marriott owners, the only option for trading was to trade week for week via II which is clunky and doesn't allow for stays other than a week long. They had no points system. Vistana already allows shorter stays via SOs.

Vistana will present a higher barrier to adoption for MVC to overcome because SOs will be "good enough" for many people vs. paying more money.

Here's a summary to compare:

MVC enrollment to MVC owners:
  • no mandatory to maintain because there is none
  • only option to trade was by week in II
  • Trust has limited property enrollment - lots of low season. But keep all weeks rights.
  • no short stay option
and yet despite these benefits after 10 years they only got 60% enrollment!

MVC enrollment to Vistana owners:
  • mandatory important to resale value (deal breaker); n/a for voluntary owners
  • Vistana owners already can trade via SOs
  • Every Vistana property enrolled in SO system for free
  • Owners already have short stay options via SOs
  • Owners already have access to some MVC weeks via II and getaways.
Other than access to *some* MVC properties on a short stay basis what do you get?

Given this, MVC may need to offer premium Vistana owners very sweet deals to give up what we've got in order to get premium Vistana properties into the MVC trust. (We are currently in the "good enough" camp for the years we may trade. Mea Culpa they will limit us to Westins and Sheratons via SOs! Incremental cost? Free + maintain mandatory designation :))


Honestly, IMHO there are very few Vistana properties that are Marriott caliber. Not a big fan of Marriott right now because of MF. However, Vistana? Not much there outside of the Hawaii locations.

Vistana owners are getting a great deal if they can get into Marriott's system. Marriott owners are NOT getting a good deal by the integration of Vistana properties. Marriott should have sold the weeds off.
 

DannyTS

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I sincerely hope most Marriott owners feel this way. We'll keep the weeds such as St. John, Bahamas, Lagunamar, and the ski week reservations all to ourselves. :)
You were a bit faster than me in responding :)
I have browsed the MVC owners FB forums, and i have bad news:) :most Marriott owners, especially those that live on the East coast can't wait to book the Vistana resorts in the locations you mentioned and not only.
Let's be honest, some owners on both sides will complain regardless of how the new program (speculation alert!) will be rolled out, it is human nature. Let's just hope it will make most owners happy.
 
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jjking42

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Somebody start a poll. I vote keep them completely separate.
That just means more exchange fees for II. I would be in favor of a shared internal II preference.
 

DannyTS

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i would really like a fully integrated system where existing programs keep the current benefits. I would not mind the Vistana home priority to be changed from 12-8 months to 13-9 or even 12-9 to match the MVC bookings, 9-7 months exclusive Staroptions reservations and cross reservations MVC-Vistana starting right after that (say 7 months)

If nothing happens though (or if the MVC proposal is not attractive to us) I am happy to continue to use what we own.
 

mjm1

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I sincerely hope most Marriott owners feel this way. We'll keep the weeds such as St. John, Bahamas, Lagunamar, and the ski week reservations all to ourselves. :)

We own both Marriott and Vistana and agree that St John, Harborside at Atlantis and Lagunamar are all outstanding resorts and locations. We have enjoyed each one and look forward to return visits. I know there are other great Vistana resorts including Kierland Villas where we own.

Everyone has their preferences and favorites in each system. I think some sort of combination (overlay) would be a huge win for anyone who takes advantage of it.

Best regards.

Mike
 

4Sunsets

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I sincerely hope most Marriott owners feel this way. We'll keep the weeds such as St. John, Bahamas, Lagunamar, and the ski week reservations all to ourselves. :)

St John and Bahamas we've been to. Fairly nice, but people are trying like crazy to sell out of there for pocket change. Some have been listed for a few $$$, and not sold. Marriott already has plenty of ski destinations in all price / cost ranges and doesn't really need any more.

Point is none of these non-Hawaii Vistanas are doing Marriott owners any favors, except extreme dilution of value.
 

DannyTS

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St John and Bahamas we've been to. Fairly nice, but people are trying like crazy to sell out of there for pocket change. Some have been listed for a few $$$, and not sold. Marriott already has plenty of ski destinations in all price / cost ranges and doesn't really need any more.

Point is none of these non-Hawaii Vistanas are doing Marriott owners any favors, except extreme dilution of value.

Poor MVC CEO, it looks like he did not do his homework before buying ILG! Too late now to fix that but at least he can reach out to you for advise on how to improve the Westin "weeds"
 

GregT

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We own both Marriott and Vistana and agree that St John, Harborside at Atlantis and Lagunamar are all outstanding resorts and locations. We have enjoyed each one and look forward to return visits. I know there are other great Vistana resorts including Kierland Villas where we own.

Everyone has their preferences and favorites in each system. I think some sort of combination (overlay) would be a huge win for anyone who takes advantage of it.

Best regards.

Mike

I agree with Mike here. We own both Vistana and Marriott and I've had very enjoyable visits to Harborside, Lagunamar, Westin Kaanapali and Westin Princeville. I've visited (but not stayed) at Westin St. John and I look forward to return visits to all of these properties. I'm going to SDO next year for Spring Training.

I don't follow the weeds comment -- no CEO worth her/his salt is going to sell off (newly-acquired) properties but will instead find a way to leverage all assets across a now broader ownership base. There is a role for every one of these properties in the new enterprise. There's renovations to be done (to be paid for by us), upgrade programs to be rolled out (to be sold to us), new locations for each legacy ownership, and formidable competitors (Wyndham and HGVC) that are continuing to expand.

Wall Street doesn't want to hear that Marriott is contracting. They want growth, expansion, creativity and that's what Marriott is giving them. I think this was a smart move by Marriott and I'm very curious to see what kind of overlay they introduce -- both initially, and as it evolves over time.

Interesting stuff.

Best,

Greg
 

4Sunsets

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Poor MVC CEO, it looks like he did not do his homework before buying ILG! Too late now to fix that but at least he can reach out to you for advise on how to improve the Westin "weeds"

It's a tad presumptuous.... Dan. Considering the way the posts were going about how Marriott must pay a premium to woe Vistana owners, and such. Just added my thoughts about how badly the whole thing diluted the value of Marriott ownership and a definitive "no" on the idea that Marriott needed to pay some sort of premium.

I'm not particularly enamored with any of the Vistana properties. Westin/Sheraton VC kind of got lost for a few years in the Vistana buy then sell to Marriott and there's a lot of money going to be tied up with work that needs to be caught up. But what would I know I've only stayed in all of them multiple times (Hawaii/Carib).
 

JIMinNC

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I think there is some validity to both perspectives being offered here. I do agree that if they do come up with some sort of overlay/exchange system between legacy Vistana and legacy Marriott, that the Vistana owners stand to gain/benefit more than do Marriott owners. For all practical purposes, the only new destinations for Marriott owners are the Mexico resorts, the Bahamas, and St John, whereas Vistana owners add many more new potential destinations. Yes, we MVC owners would pick up new options in Hawaii and several other markets, but not really new destinations.

But I don't really see the perspective that the acquisition diluted Marriott ownership, or that it was a bad decision by Steve Weiss and the MVW team. The Vistana network's sales results have lagged those of MVC and I think the team at Marriott can implement some of their processes to improve sales performance at the legacy Vistana sales locations and turn that ship around. At least Wall Street will be expecting them to do that.

But I think at least part of the reason for the acquisition was defensive on the part of Marriott Vacations Worldwide - to ensure that the Westin/Sheraton timeshare brands stayed under the Marriott umbrella. ILG shareholder Front Four Capital had made no secret of their desire to have someone buy ILG. Since Marriott International had acquired the former Starwood hotel brands and was in the process of combining them into a consolidated reservation/branding/loyalty program, it just made sense that the timeshare brands of legacy Marriott and legacy Starwood should find themselves under common ownership as well.
 
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4Sunsets

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I don't follow the weeds comment -- no CEO worth her/his salt is going to sell off (newly-acquired) properties but will instead find a way to leverage all assets across a now broader ownership base. There is a role for every one of these properties in the new enterprise. There's renovations to be done (to be paid for by us), upgrade programs to be rolled out (to be sold to us), new locations for each legacy ownership, and formidable competitors (Wyndham and HGVC) that are continuing to expand.

Wall Street doesn't want to hear that Marriott is contracting. They want growth, expansion, creativity and that's what Marriott is giving them. I think this was a smart move by Marriott and I'm very curious to see what kind of overlay they introduce -- both initially, and as it evolves over time.

Interesting stuff.

Best,

Greg

CEOs are perfectly fallible. They steer their companies into the ground all the time. On the hotel side, I agree, the merger was about growth and market dominance. However, the timeshare properties were more or less orphaned for Vistana to pick up on the cheap.
 

CalGalTraveler

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Every TS system has great properties and properties that lag and need renovation. I just read about an MVC in Colorado in the Marriott forum that someone declared "is stuck in the 1980's!"

Don't confuse resale value with the quality of the property. Harborside and St. John have high MF and St. John is recovering from a hurricane so some owners want out as they may be attempting to avoid assessments. This is driving down prices. With an overlay, MVC owners should be delighted that they can pay a lower MVC maint fee and trade into these properties without hurricane assessments.

Although MVC has more locations, IMO many MVC properties are in locations that we would never want to visit (e.g. New Jersey, Fl coast, Myrtle Beach), or have HGVC or Vistana alternatives in the same location.
 
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GregT

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CEOs are perfectly fallible. They steer their companies into the ground all the time. On the hotel side, I agree, the merger was about growth and market dominance. However, the timeshare properties were more or less orphaned for Vistana to pick up on the cheap.

I'm very sorry, but your comments are very general (and negative) and I don't believe reflect the complexity of this transaction and the benefit that it will bring to Marriott -- and to Marriott owners.

Companies need to grow, to have more stable revenues, to broaden their product offerings to their customers and to beat formidable competitors. Marriott accomplished many of these with this transaction. I'm not saying it's a good stock purchase (I don't know that it is) but this created a healthier organization with a formidable position in the market. You are welcome to pick on certain properties that you think aren't up to snuff from a guest perspective, but I would encourage you to view it from the CEOs perspective (or from the investor's perspective). If you want to sell undeveloped land because it's no longer strategic, fine. If you want to close an unprofitable housekeeping vertical, go for it. But the executive team is focused on maximizing all the assets that have acquired (including that undeveloped land and that housekeeping division) and making the entire organization more profitable and effective.

And I think all timeshare companies have done a good job of converting their business model to be "asset-light" and to transfer the development risk to third parties that want that risk. The hotel businesses were caught by owning capital-intensive timeshare business at a time when the world collapsed and spinning off their timeshare arms was necessary. Now those timeshare companies have been more nimble and find third parties to fund that development, with the timeshare company simply managing properties. Marriott isn't going to divest of its developed properties easily or on a whim, and on the contrary, is likely scouring the planet for suitable new projects and getting a third party to finance the development or conversion. It's interesting to follow.

Best,

Greg
 
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lorenmd

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CEOs are perfectly fallible. They steer their companies into the ground all the time. On the hotel side, I agree, the merger was about growth and market dominance. However, the timeshare properties were more or less orphaned for Vistana to pick up on the cheap.
why are you only a guest and not a member?
 

DannyTS

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CEOs are perfectly fallible. They steer their companies into the ground all the time. On the hotel side, I agree, the merger was about growth and market dominance. However, the timeshare properties were more or less orphaned for Vistana to pick up on the cheap.
For the developer, the more the merrier. Through repossessions and ROFRs they are able to acquire a healthy amount of deeds virtually for free, turn around and sell them at a very hefty profit. I think i read somewhere repossessions alone are around 2% of the inventory per year! Think about it, 2% of 150 resorts is the equivalent of 3 resorts virtually for free every year! If you were in this business, would you want less or more resorts?
 

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I'm very sorry, but your comments are very general (and negative) and I don't believe reflect the complexity of this transaction and the benefit that it will bring to Marriott -- and to Marriott owners.

Don't believe the transaction has much, if any, benefit to MVC owners, though lots of benefit to Vistana owners who were stuck in limbo with a company that bought the timeshares so they would be an attractive purchase (that made them a lot of money that they subsequently walked away with).
 

sparty

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While June 2020 is a long way off, they may hold this off till then to coincide with the 10 year anniversary and open up enrollment to everyone again (even post 6/2010 resale weeks). Though that may upset many who have paid a lot of money through the promotion and purchase of DC points to enroll their otherwise ineligible weeks.

Dioxide - funny this is exactly what I was thinking too.. Coincide VSE with the 10 year Marriott ex-enrollment date . I'm sure Marriott is considering it too.
 

dioxide45

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why are you only a guest and not a member?
I am not really sure how this is relevant to this discussion or any discussion. People who are not TUG members are just as welcome to post here as anyone else?

It should also be noted that many people here with the "TUG Member" moniker may not currently be members. You only need to have neen a member at one time in order to have that little plaque below your user id. Even if your membership lapses, that plaque stays.
 
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