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Marriott making it impossible to buy/sell resales

Discussion in 'Marriott Vacation Club' started by NotNew, Apr 20, 2019.

  1. Quadmaniac

    Quadmaniac TUG Member

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    I don't think it is as simple as you have put it but in some respects yes, once you buy it, you're locked in. Not any different from buying a house and once you do, its yours. If the maintenance costs go up, it is an added cost. If it becomes un-affordable in your eyes, then really all you can do is try to sell.

    The fees have been going up about 3-4% for most resorts and I would expect that to be normal. Timesharing is not for everyone and if this doesn't suit you, then its time to sell. I think it is important to keep in mind that these companies, like every other business, is in it to make money and you seemed surprised that they are making money off of you. They're certainly not going to do it for free. You don't work for free, so you expect them to ? If they don't make money, they go out of business and then your timeshares are in limbo if no one is operating it.
     
  2. Fredflintstone

    Fredflintstone TUG Member

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    I agree with you. If you don’t like the increased fees, reduction of benefits or any other changes or adjustments, you need to get out.

    You signed a contract stating they can change terms at anytime so live with it or get out.

    My main point is if they get greedy, people will get out at some point and this could harm the timeshare industry as a whole.

    Making money is good and I’m all for that. My problem with timeshares is getting out is harder unlike selling your house or just going somewhere else to do business because timeshares are harder to get out of. In other words, If you don’t agree, pulling the plug is challenging. In the house example, you are not needing to lose 90 percent plus of what you paid to get out.

    Yes, I rent only because I hate being locked in and enjoy choice. I do respect those who own and love it. Different strokes, different folks.


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  3. Quadmaniac

    Quadmaniac TUG Member

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    If the fees were going up 15-20% I would agree, but I think my household costs go up by 3-4% every year as well.

    In terms of the house, I would beg to differ as in some markets, the bottom has fallen out of the housing market and it is not uncommon to hear that someone's mortgage is upside down, losing all of their equity. It has happened and will happen again.

    For some, renting works out better for them and there is nothing wrong with that if that gets you what you want.
     
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  4. Dean

    Dean TUG Member

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    Fees are based on real costs plus a % for management, not greed. Back when housing prices were going down as much as 50% we still saw fee increases in the range we're seeing them now. There were some savings on the management side as contractors were more desperate but not as much as you'd think.
     
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  5. Fredflintstone

    Fredflintstone TUG Member

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    The term value is subjective. Where one says its value, the other will say “its too much” or greedy.

    Those that believe the costs are too high should simply sell and move on.

    If the majority of owners are satisfied with the fees and benefits, the delinquency rates will be very low. If not, they go up. If the market determines fees are too high, buyers will dry up.

    In the end, its the owners overall that make that decision and act accordingly.

    Its a balancing act.




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  6. Dean

    Dean TUG Member

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    To a degree but in reality timeshares are generally sold not bought. Market forces don't fit very well into Timeshares for several reasons including that they are a fringe item much like a collectible.
     
  7. Fredflintstone

    Fredflintstone TUG Member

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    I think they do. As one board member of a resort said

    If the Owners aren’t happy, the bills don’t get paid

    If the bills don’t get paid, the resort dies.


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  8. Dean

    Dean TUG Member

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    It's not that they don't apply but that they do not function very efficiently with timeshares.
     
  9. csodjd

    csodjd TUG Member

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    Don't you think that your observations and complaints have been the case for years, even decades. 25 years ago, when MF were a fraction of what they are today, I'm guessing the owners bitched about the MF just as they do today. And they'll be doing it 25 years from now. Human nature. Nonetheless, there is an active market for some of the most expensive timeshares. I wish they were less. But they are FAR less than what it would cost me for a week with a comparable room at a comparable location (I'm in Maui, oceanfront, 2-BR). Heck, I paid $1300/nt for an OF room at the St. Regis in Princeville. And I paid about $350 the other night for an Embassy Suites 1-bed studio in Sacramento. The rental for my Maui room is about 2-2.5x my MF.
     
  10. dioxide45

    dioxide45 TUG Review Crew: Veteran TUG Member

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    Of course in an economic downturn, hotel rates will almost always drop. However, MF increases don't skip a beat and usually increase faster because of the increasing number of defaults.
     
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  11. Fredflintstone

    Fredflintstone TUG Member

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    Yes. People always complain on things. The way to know when MFs are over the top is when owners act by not paying in droves forcing the resort to either recalibrate or die.

    Talk will always be there. Its when it turns to people refusing to pay in good numbers is when it becomes a problem.


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  12. Fredflintstone

    Fredflintstone TUG Member

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    ...which results in the resort possibly dying.


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  13. csodjd

    csodjd TUG Member

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    Exactly. Fair market value operating as it should.
     
  14. Fredflintstone

    Fredflintstone TUG Member

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    precisely


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  15. JIMinNC

    JIMinNC TUG Member

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    Yep, because hotel rates have a demand/market driven component (in addition to costs), whereas maintenance fees are basically cost pass through, and many costs still go up, even in a downturn, and as you noted with defaults, some costs go up dramatically.
     
  16. vacationtime1

    vacationtime1 Tug Review Crew: Rookie TUG Member

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    True, but in a strong economy, hotels and resorts can increase rents by as much as the traffic will bear.

    The most accurate way of comparing the two (% changes in MF's to % changes in hotel rates) is to measure the relative change over a full economic cycle.
     
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  17. Fredflintstone

    Fredflintstone TUG Member

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    To me, you pay a higher rate of rent in good times but you can stop renting at anytime. Even though the cost is higher, the price you pay is in lieu of being locked in year after year.

    Although it could be argued that one benefits from owning a timeshare when times are good because their MFs gradually rise versus spike rent, they get smoked when the economy sours. Why? The guy who rented and has less resources in a downturn can simply stop vacationing and thus stop the costs. An MF owner keeps getting the bills that are rising regardless of whether they still have a job or not. They are also left with 2 options if the MFs are killing them. They can either attempt to sell which is harder in an economic downturn or stop paying the MF. Unlike the renter, they could face credit destruction from the pending foreclosure. We saw a huge spike of defaults in 2008 coupled with some MFs going to the moon as a result to support the rising defaults.


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  18. csodjd

    csodjd TUG Member

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    Sometimes I wonder if any of you actually use your timeshare for, like, a vacation. I purchased mine to almost force me to go to Hawaii for a few weeks every year. I'm not even sure how to value that. But I know it's not via MF costs.
     
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  19. Dean

    Dean TUG Member

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    Let me see. Since you've been a member of TUG (around 2 years), I've had the following trips using timeshares that I recall off the top of my head.

    HH trip with 51 people
    1. 3 week HI trip 15 people
    2. Aruba 4 couples
    3. 9 days St. Augustine/Daytona 2 couples
    4. A number of long weekends St. Augustine, Destin, Panama City Beach.
    5. Disney on property X2 with immediate family
    6. Gatlinburg 4 couples
    7. Longboat Key, Naples, Marco Island & back to St. Pete beach 2 weeks

    Upcoming already booked or exchange matched
    1. HH - 50-56 people
    2. LV - 2 couples
    3. HH 2020 also large group
    But IMO one must pay attention to the $$$ cost and risk as well as the other benefits, risk and aggravations. Timeshares have allowed me to do things I could not have done otherwise. For those trips I have previously or will cover all of the accommodations including 3 HHI trips to Grande Ocean with 9-10 villas. When you say "forced" I assume it's something you want to do and the timeshares reminds you to do so routinely.
     
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  20. jme

    jme TUG Member

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    Marriotts:
    Grande Ocean x 6
    Barony x 2
    OceanWatch x 1
    Manor Club x 1
    .
    Waterside by Spin x 2
    Sheraton Bdwy Plnt x 2
    ChurchStInnCharleston2
    I think sometimes that many individuals here have no clue as to the HOW or WHY we timeshare owners do things.
    While touting "renting" they might be missing the point that we all rented for many years before we delved
    into the timeshare world........Do they for one second think we didn't? Or that as empty-nesters we still don't at all?
    But most of us abandoned renting because we wanted more, and we got more and will continue to get more.
    A 2 or 3BR condo will always be superior to a hotel room.

    (I am not ignorant of the various options out there---we use Airbnbs, too, for select trips like Italy this past October,
    but they can be more uncertain and ill-defined, and the potential
    for huge disappointments are always present. Thankfully, due to my homework, we had a fantastic experience.
    With timeshares, though, to a high degree we know exactly what we're walking in to.
    We also use hotel stays during the year, but the costs limit the time tremendously....say for instance
    our upcoming October trips to the Omni Mount Washington Resort in New Hampshire and our stay at the
    Woodstock Inn in Woodstock Vermont, and accompanied by some time in Boston using Rewards Points.
    The cost for those are close to prohibitive, but something we wanted to do.
    The point is, timeshares more than meet our needs for most adventures, but not always.
    We still have a limited but parallel life in the "renters' world", but it continues to show its frequently oppressive financial side.)

    Dean, my new hero, just presented a long list of impressive plans, quite a notch above most, but not so far removed from
    what many timeshare owners are experiencing (and can arrange) month after month and year after year.
    The naysayers don't often hear or know about what all we have at our disposal, i.e., deals that a renter
    cannot pull off. The further we timeshare owners go over time, the lower the costs
    (we basically travel now on maintenance fees only), but the renters' graphs continually trend upward.

    Our MF graphs also follow a similar path but at a lower cost, and yes, they must go up, understood,
    but have you seen the hotel rates lately, even the mid-level and lower-level brands?
    We had wonderful vacations in hotels before timeshares, but they cannot compare with what we've had
    over the past 20 years for our families, not to mention the amazing destinations we've visited more easily
    "in the system" since we used our timeshares.
    I honestly think the haters shout much louder than those who are enjoying life quietly via
    quality timeshare-related vacations.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
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  21. Dean

    Dean TUG Member

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    The the best part is we're at HHI no less, obviously one of your favorites. What I often tell people is timeshares don't save me money but they allow me to do things I could not do otherwise for a controlled cost.

    Marty, one thing you referenced (if I read it correctly), but didn't expand on, is this. If you are well educated and proactive (both up front and ongoing) you can often do very well with timeshares. The reverse, not so much. So if you are educated before buying, make good choices, learn the system and plan ahead; one can do very well. If you buy retail, don't learn the system, are passive, don't plan ahead and miss deadlines, timeshares will not be a blessing. It's very much a me against them system and Marriott is no different. For example, I have 10 units at MGO this summer and next for a high demand week. That's 7 units from weeks inventory and 3 from points inventory not available to others and next year 9 from weeks (already reserved) and hopefully 1 or 2 from points but the reservation window hasn't yet opened for the week in question. That's what makes TUG so great is the willingness to share even though sharing might have some negatives for those that are well educated otherwise though much of that education will come from TUG or similar.
     
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  22. Quadmaniac

    Quadmaniac TUG Member

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    I would probably say is the amount I have saved way way outweighs the potential risk of being locked into my timeshares. There is no way I could travel for $700-900 a week in Hawaii at the Marriott or Westin in a 2 br unit. Multiply that by the number of weeks I have gone and I am in positive vs renting for many years. This does not include the money I make from renting the weeks I own out as they're specific holiday weeks that are in high demand. I travel for free every year now and make money from them. Taking into consideration the flights and costs while I am there, I would bet I break even if I take those costs into account. Timeshares have been the best thing for me thus far owning. It's all about understanding the system and working with it. Those who fail to take the time to truly look into the ins and outs miss out, will result in complaints that the system doesn't work.

    The maintenance fees are what they are. I don't see them as being unreasonable.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2019
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  23. Fredflintstone

    Fredflintstone TUG Member

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    Although I respect those who choose the timeshare lifestyle, I too have learned over the years not to get locked in. I agree TUG is a great platform to learn. No, I’m not a hater of timeshares. Many of the resorts are beautiful places. I just simply enjoy the freedom to base my trips on price. Just for comparison, here is where I have stayed this past winter with costs.

    1. September 14 to 21. Maui Ocean Club. A last minute rental on TUG. 2 bedroom, ocean front. Cost 800.00

    2. Puerto Vallarta November 12 to 21. Stayed at friendly Vallarta. Cost 1100.00 all in. This included flights, all meals, drinks, airport transfer and ocean front room.

    3. Las Vegas January 10 to 15. Airbnb. 2 bedroom condo. 3 blocks from strip. 200.00

    4. Hono Kona Lahaina Hawaii. February 18-25. Rented the week for 600.00 on redweek. 2 bedroom ocean front.

    I have read many different threads of owners here loving their weeks in awesome resorts and sharing their experiences. Those are the threads I enjoy the most. It’s wonderful to see others enjoying life.

    So, I don’t think it’s educated versus uneducated. I personally don’t hate timeshares. I just prefer to rent as I believe with careful planning I can do better than owning.

    When I do rent a timeshare, I enjoy talking to the community of owners as well. They are wonderful people. That is another reason I joined TUG.






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  24. Ralph Sir Edward

    Ralph Sir Edward TUG Member

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    It all depends on why you are travelling.

    If what you want is vacations always at some place new, and have absolutely no time constraints, then grabbing bargains is the way to go.

    If, on the other hand, you are like me, and want a surrogate second home for a month at a block at a particular location, with no moving from week to week, then owning is the only way to be able to do that consistently.
     
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  25. Fredflintstone

    Fredflintstone TUG Member

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    Yes, some folks like consistency and predictability and in that case, owning makes total sense.


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