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Marriott making it impossible to buy/sell resales

NotNew

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I shared with you that I bought my weeks directly from Marriott!

Sorry Carlito... I misread because you said you bought in 2003, then you mentioned kids and grandkids and then later a 5-year old between you and your wife that you shared the studio/lockoff with.
 

Quadmaniac

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LIMITED KNOWLEDGE? LOL. I've been a timeshare owner for 25 years.
Owning for 25 years or even 50 years does not equate to knowledge. My dad is 37 years older than me, it does not mean he is more knowledgeable by default. But it is obvious from your statements and assertions, your experience has been very narrow by some of your assertions.
 
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Quadmaniac

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Well, if they have your ID and wont return it to you after you've asked. Not much else you can do, as one example. As other examples, after sitting there for an hour or more, and you do go to the front but no one will help you. That's on them.


In all the timeshare presentations I’ve gone to, sometimes multiple times in certain locations, I’ve never given them my ID to hold onto. Whether it be Marriott, Westin, Sheraton, Hyatt, never once have they taken my ID. Most times they don’t even ask to see it. That’s how I know you lack a broad based experience of timeshares as you are probably basing it on one experience possible in Mexico or something. We can certainly take a survey to see how many users here have ever had the company take and hold onto your ID.

I’ve never had an issue getting anyone at the front desk. So again I call limited experience.
 

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In all the timeshare presentations I’ve gone to, sometimes multiple times in certain locations, I’ve never given them my ID to hold onto. Whether it be Marriott, Westin, Sheraton, Hyatt, never once have they taken my ID. Most times they don’t even ask to see it. That’s how I know you lack a broad based experience of timeshares as you are probably basing it on one experience possible in Mexico or something. We can certainly take a survey to see how many users here have ever had the company take and hold onto your ID.

oh really? so you never actually bought anything from a developer then. You have no base of experience there from which to speak then. So what exactly happens do you think when you get to contracts? They take a picture of your face and randomly assign you a driver's license ID?
 

Quadmaniac

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oh really? yes, everyone who has a different opinion must be a troll, lack knowledge or experience or have an agenda. Geez... Head shake.

Nothing wrong with different opinion but it is your statements that reveal how limited your knowledge is. As I said, take time to go through the forum and for example see how many times it has been mentioned marriott buying back units. There is even a thread where everyone has posted what they sold and for how much. Seeing that you have talked to THOUSANDS, you must have missed something if this has happened without you knowing it in your 25 years of owning.

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...cks-and-takebacks-2012-ongoing.178337/page-15
 
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Quadmaniac

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oh really? so you never actually bought anything from a developer then. You have no base of experience there from which to speak then. So what exactly happens do you think when you get to contracts? They take a picture of your face and randomly assign you a driver's license ID?

To attend a presentation you do not need to give them anything. If you are going through contracts, then you’re progressing down the line or leading them on. If you’re not interested in buying, why would you be having contracts where you need ID ? Doesn’t make sense.

You want to leave but they have your ID as they’re filling in a contract with you ? Ok makes no sense
 
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GregT

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To the OP,

I am also puzzled by this thread. Are you trying to say that Marriott is charging an excessively high price for their product? I don't disagree with that. You suggest that Marriott isn't paying the MFs on unsold weeks in the Trust and that you got that from their Annual Report. Did I understand that correctly and if so, can you point me to where you determined that, as that was not my understanding.

I think you're suggesting also that timeshares are a waste of money. If I misunderstood, please let me know. From my perspective, I would much rather own my timeshares than own an expensive car or watch -- any of these luxury items could be considered a waste of money. I'm flying back now from a trip to Ritz St. Thomas in the timeshare and it was an amazing trip that I would not have done if it wasn't a timeshare. So I don't measure my return on timeshares monetarily.

We've had the debate many times here on TUG about if timeshares pencil out. I'm not sure if they do or not but I would not hesitate to exactly repeat my purchases -- one direct purchase, the rest resale. And I am fortunate to have bought before June 2010 so I am grandfathered in. It's much harder to support buying post June 2010 but TUGgers like Fasttr have found a path -- they bought points direct, used those points and found a property they love, and bought that property resale, and use their points to extend their stay -- or rent points to supplement.

There is alot we can do with this system -- and yes, it's expensive to use and I ration when I use those valuable points -- like for Ritz Carlton St. Thomas, which is an amazing property.

So I think I've done it all -- rented points in/out, rented weeks in/out, utilized pure week reservations, utilized pure point reservations, and utilized a combination of week/point reservations. I've also combined II trades with point reservations, and combined two II trades to make a larger unit. I've traded my WM (which you know is a powerful trader as you've spent time on WMOwners and booked Studio's which I bolt onto a 1BR reservation that I made with points. I've constructed family reunions, booking 8 reservations with all of the above. There is alot that I can do with this system and it suits me well.

I don't worry about the financial return -- I have true investments for that. This is a lifestyle decision and for the rest of my life, I will remember taking my 18 year daughter to St Thomas before she goes off to college, because I'd booked a 2BR unit six months ago and there was space for her to make a spontaneous decision to come. It was an amazing trip with some conversations that I will cherish for the rest of my life -- how do I place a value on that?

I think some of the responses that you are feeling from TUGgers is because many of us simply don't think about this solely from an economic perspective. I don't want to have to try to rent these things to avoid the up-front cost, I want to own it, understand how the system works, and use it to my advantage.

If you tell us what you are trying to do with the Marriott system, I bet we could come up with some creative ideas for you that would merit consideration. Or we may confirm that Marriott isn't for you -- and maybe HGVC or Starwood are -- I like them too.

Best,

Greg
 
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GregT

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A background in accounting helps to see where the shells are being pushed around. You also need to look at NASDAQ: MAR, in the financials.

Okay, I have another hour to kill on my flight, so I did as you suggest and looked at the Annual Report. Here is what I found (and I do have a background in accounting).

First disclosure:

Rental

We generate revenue from rentals of inventory that we hold for sale as interests in our vacation ownership programs or as residences, or inventory that we control because our owners have elected alternative usage options permitted under our vacation ownership programs

Second disclosure:

Rental

In our Vacation Ownership segment, we operate a rental business to provide owner flexibility and to help mitigate carrying costs associated with our inventory.

Third disclosure:

Rental expenses include:
• Maintenance fees on unsold inventory;


I'm not sure what you found that suggests something different, but this makes me believe the cost of the unsold product is being paid by Marriott. I may have misunderstood what you were trying to say.

Best,

Greg
 

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To the OP,

I am also puzzled by this thread. Are you trying to say that Marriott is charging an excessively high price for their product? I don't disagree with that. You suggest that Marriott isn't paying the MFs on unsold weeks in the Trust and that you got that from their Annual Report. Did I understand that correctly and if so, can you point me to where you determined that, as that was not my understanding.

I think you're suggesting also that timeshares are a waste of money. If I misunderstood, please let me know. From my perspective, I would much rather own my timeshares than own an expensive car or watch -- all of these items there are people who consider them to be a waste of money. I'm flying back now from a trip to Ritz St. Thomas in the timeshare and it was an amazing trip that I would not have done if it wasn't a timeshare. So I don't measure my return on timeshares monetarily.

We've had the debate many times here on TUG about if timeshares pencil out. I'm not sure if they do or not but I would not hesitate to exactly repeat my purchases -- one direct purchase, the rest resale. And I am fortunate to have bought before June 2010 so I am grandfathered in. It's much harder to support buying post June 2010 but TUGgers like Fasttr have found a path -- they bought points direct, used those points and found a property they love, and bought that property resale, and use their points to extend their stay -- or rent points to supplement.

There is alot we can do with this system -- and yes, it's expensive to use and I ration when I use those valuable points -- like for Ritz Carlton St. Thomas, which is an amazing property.

So I think I've done it all -- rented points in/out, rented weeks in/out, utilized pure week reservations, utilized pure point reservations, and utilized a combination of week/point reservations. I've also combined II trades with point reservations, and combined two II trades to make a larger unit. I've traded my WM (which you know is a powerful trader as you've spent time on WMOwners and booked Studio's which I bolt onto a 1BR reservation that I made with points. I've constructed family reunions, booking 8 reservations with all of the above. There is alot that I can do with this system and it suits me well.

I don't worry about the financial return -- I have true investments for that. This is a lifestyle decision and for the rest of my life, I will remember taking my 18 year daughter to St Thomas spontaneously before she goes off to college, because I'd booked a 2BR unit and there was space. It was an amazing trip with some conversations that I will cherish for the rest of my life -- how do I place a value on that?

I think some of the responses that you are feeling from TUGgers is because many of us simply don't think about this solely from an economic perspective. I don't want to have to exclusively rent these things to try and save some money, I want to own it, understand how the system works, and use it to my advantage.

If you tell us what you are trying to do with the Marriott system, I bet we could come up with some creative ideas for you that would merit consideration. Or we may confirm that Marriott isn't for you -- and maybe HGVC or Starwood are -- I like them too.

Best,

Greg

Except for your puzzlement, we agree on quite a lot :D

The issue is not specifically with MF, but with costs, fees, etc and how the monies get back to the timeshare side of the business, how much in excess of cost Marriott charges for the management, etc. All the flows are there, follow or not, as you will. Marriott does do a lot of good things, but the company is far from perfect. If we all just simply accept the status quo, they will keep pushing at the edges.

I don't think timeshares are a waste of money. I think there's lots to like with timeshares, but again if we keep accepting the status quo w/o asking questions and looking in the corners, the companies running them will keep pushing at the edges to see what they can get away with. My family owns multiple in multiple systems. Me specifically, for 25 years.

I'm not looking for financial return. I am looking to ensure that my family (extended and me) can continue to enjoy our vacations. The key issues here is the steady rise of MF and other costs/fees, when in all honesty over the past 10-12 years through the recession and such should not have continued at a steady rise of 3-5% / year IMHO. In it's steady march of 3-5%, we will be priced out of vacations at some point.

I suspect also that the integration of all the new purchases will result in a lot of the benefits of the system being diluted. For example, those at the top (Presidents/Chairmans) may find they are suddenly not at the top of the system--they may be closer to the executive, meanwhile, the executive may be under a rug somewhere. In the hotel points system, silver/golds became like platinums and platinums became like everyone else for about a year.

Some of the new purchases really havent been managed effectively for a few years, and they will likely be costly to update/integrate back to the norm.

Just thoughts... so how do we hedge our bets against the coming tide of change and increasing MF?
 

GregT

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NotNew,

I don't think you can hedge your bets against the coming tide of change and increasing MFs. MFs will continue to go up because all costs are going up -- I am a CFO of a company and cost containment is one of the most difficult things to do. People want raises, electricity goes up, the suppliers want to pass through their higher costs to you, new employees often cost more than existing employees, and sometimes things break. All Marriott is doing is managing our vacation home for us and passing through the actual cost to us. If we don't want to pay it, then we really should sell and let Marriott buy it, stick in the Trust, and find new owners for Points. They may need to change their target customer -- both the geographic location as well as the age, but I am confident they will find buyers for those points.

I did find the section on the management fees, they have $359M of management fees and ancillary revenues and a related cost of $190M so Marriott makes $169M in profit from the management all of our properties, the restaurants, the golf clubs, and our club fees. Almost half of the $169M in margin is our Club Fees, that $260 per year that I pay. One of Marriott's goals in introducing DClub was to develop a more stable/recurring revenue source and they have been successful.

I could probably challenge some of Marriott's decisions in upgrading Maui Ocean Club (because those costs get passed through to us in our maintenance fees, and they charge a percentage of those cost) but the property looks fantastic and I am always ecstatic when I am there. I remember times when the property looked a little shabby and I know they were trying to hold MFs flat (they did that after the 2008 crash). So I don't mind -- and if the people object enough to the GM and the HOA, maybe that will influence their renovations budgets and hiring decisions. But we hire Marriott to manage the properties and I think they do a pretty good job of it. I think I'm at 20 Marriott's visited and I think they are terrific.

We will see -- and I hope that we are all enjoying these timeshares for many years. Flight is landing...!! You all need to visit the Ritz STT!

Best,

Greg
 

bazzap

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MVC pays MFs like any other owner for the unsold inventory they “own”.
Therefore they pay their fair share for resources needed to maintain the resort, which covers what is needed for that unsold inventory.
Really, truly depends on how you are interpreting the passed on costs, fees and expenses, and like I said only the financials reveal this and of course, each properties reports.

As an example, resources are needed to maintain unsold inventory properties. How otherwise are these resources being paid for? Other costs fees expenses are in the MF as well

-obviously not intended to be a source of advice or financial information
 

csalter2

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Sorry Carlito... I misread because you said you bought in 2003, then you mentioned kids and grandkids and then later a 5-year old between you and your wife that you shared the studio/lockoff with.

Yes, I bought pre-construction in 2003 from Marriott. I do have a 5 year old and grandkids. Yes, my five year old shares a studio sometimes with us. All true, but I bought my three weeks directly from Marriott and I did it all from my house. I cut good deals with Marriott. The last two weeks were part of the hybrid but instead of a week and points, I was able to get a two week hybrid package in which one week was an Aruba Surf Club week straight discounted buy and the other was a resale week that Marriott had bought back from a previous owner. (You see, Marriott does buy back deeds.) Marriott enrolled both weeks so I have access to the points for those weeks.
 

dagger1

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To the OP,

I am also puzzled by this thread. Are you trying to say that Marriott is charging an excessively high price for their product? I don't disagree with that. You suggest that Marriott isn't paying the MFs on unsold weeks in the Trust and that you got that from their Annual Report. Did I understand that correctly and if so, can you point me to where you determined that, as that was not my understanding.

I think you're suggesting also that timeshares are a waste of money. If I misunderstood, please let me know. From my perspective, I would much rather own my timeshares than own an expensive car or watch -- any of these luxury items could be considered a waste of money. I'm flying back now from a trip to Ritz St. Thomas in the timeshare and it was an amazing trip that I would not have done if it wasn't a timeshare. So I don't measure my return on timeshares monetarily.

We've had the debate many times here on TUG about if timeshares pencil out. I'm not sure if they do or not but I would not hesitate to exactly repeat my purchases -- one direct purchase, the rest resale. And I am fortunate to have bought before June 2010 so I am grandfathered in. It's much harder to support buying post June 2010 but TUGgers like Fasttr have found a path -- they bought points direct, used those points and found a property they love, and bought that property resale, and use their points to extend their stay -- or rent points to supplement.

There is alot we can do with this system -- and yes, it's expensive to use and I ration when I use those valuable points -- like for Ritz Carlton St. Thomas, which is an amazing property.

So I think I've done it all -- rented points in/out, rented weeks in/out, utilized pure week reservations, utilized pure point reservations, and utilized a combination of week/point reservations. I've also combined II trades with point reservations, and combined two II trades to make a larger unit. I've traded my WM (which you know is a powerful trader as you've spent time on WMOwners and booked Studio's which I bolt onto a 1BR reservation that I made with points. I've constructed family reunions, booking 8 reservations with all of the above. There is alot that I can do with this system and it suits me well.

I don't worry about the financial return -- I have true investments for that. This is a lifestyle decision and for the rest of my life, I will remember taking my 18 year daughter to St Thomas before she goes off to college, because I'd booked a 2BR unit six months ago and there was space for her to make a spontaneous decision to come. It was an amazing trip with some conversations that I will cherish for the rest of my life -- how do I place a value on that?

I think some of the responses that you are feeling from TUGgers is because many of us simply don't think about this solely from an economic perspective. I don't want to have to try to rent these things to avoid the up-front cost, I want to own it, understand how the system works, and use it to my advantage.

If you tell us what you are trying to do with the Marriott system, I bet we could come up with some creative ideas for you that would merit consideration. Or we may confirm that Marriott isn't for you -- and maybe HGVC or Starwood are -- I like them too.

Best,

Greg
Thank you Greg. So dang well said. Your post is one of the things I love about TUG!
 

dagger1

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Except for your puzzlement, we agree on quite a lot :D

The issue is not specifically with MF, but with costs, fees, etc and how the monies get back to the timeshare side of the business, how much in excess of cost Marriott charges for the management, etc. All the flows are there, follow or not, as you will. Marriott does do a lot of good things, but the company is far from perfect. If we all just simply accept the status quo, they will keep pushing at the edges.

I don't think timeshares are a waste of money. I think there's lots to like with timeshares, but again if we keep accepting the status quo w/o asking questions and looking in the corners, the companies running them will keep pushing at the edges to see what they can get away with. My family owns multiple in multiple systems. Me specifically, for 25 years.

I'm not looking for financial return. I am looking to ensure that my family (extended and me) can continue to enjoy our vacations. The key issues here is the steady rise of MF and other costs/fees, when in all honesty over the past 10-12 years through the recession and such should not have continued at a steady rise of 3-5% / year IMHO. In it's steady march of 3-5%, we will be priced out of vacations at some point.

I suspect also that the integration of all the new purchases will result in a lot of the benefits of the system being diluted. For example, those at the top (Presidents/Chairmans) may find they are suddenly not at the top of the system--they may be closer to the executive, meanwhile, the executive may be under a rug somewhere. In the hotel points system, silver/golds became like platinums and platinums became like everyone else for about a year.

Some of the new purchases really havent been managed effectively for a few years, and they will likely be costly to update/integrate back to the norm.

Just thoughts... so how do we hedge our bets against the coming tide of change and increasing MF?
I have tried to hedge my bets by buying weeks that I want to use. But I am sure everyone has a concern about the cumulative effect in rising MF’s. It’s hard for me to believe the rising cost of maintaining and living in our house here in Houston. I also remember thinking (years ago) that if I ever made $100K/year, we would have made it. I can also remember my father (God rest his soul) telling me that he once thought the same if he ever made $10K/year. But right now what we are getting for our Hyatt and Marriott MF’s just amazes me. It makes me happy just thinking about what/where we own and our future vacations with our kids and grandkids. Everyone is making very good points, this is an interesting thread.
 

NotNew

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Yes, I bought pre-construction in 2003 from Marriott. I do have a 5 year old and grandkids. Yes, my five year old shares a studio sometimes with us. All true, but I bought my three weeks directly from Marriott and I did it all from my house. I cut good deals with Marriott. The last two weeks were part of the hybrid but instead of a week and points, I was able to get a two week hybrid package in which one week was an Aruba Surf Club week straight discounted buy and the other was a resale week that Marriott had bought back from a previous owner. (You see, Marriott does buy back deeds.) Marriott enrolled both weeks so I have access to the points for those weeks.

Fantastic for you, really good timing!
 

NotNew

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I have tried to hedge my bets by buying weeks that I want to use. But I am sure everyone has a concern about the cumulative effect in rising MF’s. It’s hard for me to believe the rising cost of maintaining and living in our house here in Houston. I also remember thinking (years ago) that if I ever made $100K/year, we would have made it. I can also remember my father (God rest his soul) telling me that he once thought the same if he ever made $10K/year. But right now what we are getting for our Hyatt and Marriott MF’s just amazes me. It makes me happy just thinking about what/where we own and our future vacations with our kids and grandkids. Everyone is making very good points, this is an interesting thread.

Definitely, I hear what you are saying about prices... Main issue for us right now is fixed income. MF may double, but our fixed income will likely not change much.
 

JIMinNC

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Definitely, I hear what you are saying about prices... Main issue for us right now is fixed income. MF may double, but our fixed income will likely not change much.

MF will go up, yes, but so does the cost of everything else. Some of the numbers you mentioned earlier in this thread calculated the cost of maintenance fees in 20 years, and looked at in isolation, those numbers do seem outlandishly high. But then, I look at what our family income and assets were 20 years ago and compare it to today, and it is a similar kind of relationship. Back then, today's numbers would have seemed like so much money. Today, not quite so much. We have been doing a lot of financial modeling for our upcoming retirement, and just looking at a nominal 2-3% inflation rate of our living expenses, the income our investments will need to generate in 20 years to cover those expenses looks equally daunting. But that's why we plan, and that's why we must keep some of our retirement funds in growth investments to protect us from the inflation monster. I don't care whether you are talking about timeshares or your basic living expenses, if your income is truly "fixed," inflation will eventually get you.
 
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MF will go up, yes, but so does the cost of everything else. Some of the numbers you mentioned earlier in this thread calculated the cost of maintenance fees in 20 years, and looked at in isolation, those numbers do seem outlandishly high. But then, I look at what our family income and assets were 20 years ago and compare it to today, and it is a similar kind of relationship. Back then, today's numbers would have seemed like so much money. Today, not quite so much. We have been doing a lot of financial modeling for our upcoming retirement, and just looking at a nominal 2-3% inflation rate of our living expenses, the income our investments will need to generate in 20 years to cover those expenses looks equally daunting. But that's why we plan, and that's why we must keep some of our retirement funds in growth investments to protect us from the inflation monster. I don't care whether you are talking about timeshares or your basic living expenses, if you income is truly "fixed," inflation will eventually get you.

I agree that everything goes up. Why wouldn't MVC want to increase MFs as much as possible?

The federal reserve tries to maintain small rate of inflation. How effective are the checks and balances to make sure the MF increases are reasonable ? Is the HOA or BOD on MVC's payroll so they are doing what is in MVC's best interest but not necessarily in the interest of owners? There is an exit program. Can you surrender your week when you want?
 

SMB1

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Would like to buy Marriott resales, really would, but every year, Marriott gets more greedy and devalues their own product while simultaneously artificially raising prices. From ~$10 a point a few years ago (at developer cost) to an artificially inflated ~$15 a point today (with absolutely NO market driving the increases except for corporate greed).

If timeshares are deeded real estate and the original purchaser already paid the developer costs. Why does Marriott make it impossible to resell and get back any of your investment? Hyatt, as an example, never did this, it was simply a few hundred $$$ for the transfer fees and the buyer retained all the value. Marriott takes all privileges away from those who buy resales, except the right to stay at home resort.

Deeded timeshares MF go up 3-5% every year like clockwork, often without any precipitating expenses or event driving them -- other than Marriott charging more management fees. Further when Marriott rents deeded timeshares, only 10-15% of these monies are returned to the timeshare system to offset actual costs, while Marriott pockets 85-90% for fees. If 85-90% was instead returned to the timeshare system, MF would actual remain fairly constant.

Points are also supposed to be real estate, but Marriott makes it even harder to resell points and get back any value. Marriott now charges an artificial rate of $3 per point to register resale points (up from an already exorbitant $2 previously). With points, owners are left paying MF on unsold property in the trust, when Marriott would have otherwise have had to pay these expenses. Point MF which were at inception more than deeded timeshares (because points owners are paying MF on property no one yet owns) and have only increased over time. A whopping .58 per point, on the way to .60 for 2020.

With points, two things would dramatically reduce the per point MF. #1 Getting Marriott to foot the bill (as it should have all along) for unused/unsold property in the land trust), #2 Reducing the exorbitant management fees Marriott charges owners. These are examples, there are more of course, but these are some of the reasons Marriott (and other timeshare companies) went to a points-based system. Another: No HOAs for oversight of Marriott mismanagement and overcharges.

Left unsaid another reason for the move to points: Marriott literally has a license to sell AIR (points backed by no tangible property). Marriott can do this because owner use their points for non-property stays: tours, cruises, etc which are the worst use of points as all you are getting back in value terms are your maintenance fees (and completely omitting all the up front monies paid in).

Speaking of upfront costs: Having sat in on quite a few sales pitches, every salesman always tells my family members to forget about the monies they paid upfront and only calculate the cost based on their maintenance fees. As in "your 7-night Hawaii stay is only costing you $300 a night, your saving 60%)" "but what about the money paid upfront" i say. "you've already paid that and got back the value in previous stays" "point of fact: no we havent, in fact, when I calculate all up front costs, MF, and other fees, were paying $800 a night and we will continue paying $800 a night because the MF never go away and only increase over time" "no no that's not how it works, you dont understand the system." REAL CONVERSATION, REAL ACTUAL COSTS.

Points, even at, 50% of developer costs are way overvalued. Primarily because Marriott artificially sets and raises the pricing, but also because Marriott not only rolled out points in the middle of the largest economic downturn in modern history but had the gall to actually inflate point pricing 150% relative to current deeded pricing. AND people lined up to pay it. Head shake.

So my long rant on all this... Looking forward to hearing yours as well as opposing views.

Except for your puzzlement, we agree on quite a lot :D

The issue is not specifically with MF, but with costs, fees, etc and how the monies get back to the timeshare side of the business, how much in excess of cost Marriott charges for the management, etc. All the flows are there, follow or not, as you will. Marriott does do a lot of good things, but the company is far from perfect. If we all just simply accept the status quo, they will keep pushing at the edges.

I don't think timeshares are a waste of money. I think there's lots to like with timeshares, but again if we keep accepting the status quo w/o asking questions and looking in the corners, the companies running them will keep pushing at the edges to see what they can get away with. My family owns multiple in multiple systems. Me specifically, for 25 years.

I'm not looking for financial return. I am looking to ensure that my family (extended and me) can continue to enjoy our vacations. The key issues here is the steady rise of MF and other costs/fees, when in all honesty over the past 10-12 years through the recession and such should not have continued at a steady rise of 3-5% / year IMHO. In it's steady march of 3-5%, we will be priced out of vacations at some point.

I suspect also that the integration of all the new purchases will result in a lot of the benefits of the system being diluted. For example, those at the top (Presidents/Chairmans) may find they are suddenly not at the top of the system--they may be closer to the executive, meanwhile, the executive may be under a rug somewhere. In the hotel points system, silver/golds became like platinums and platinums became like everyone else for about a year.
Some of the new purchases really havent been managed effectively for a few years, and they will likely be costly to update/integrate back to the norm.
Just thoughts... so how do we hedge our bets against the coming tide of change and increasing MF?

Definitely, I hear what you are saying about prices... Main issue for us right now is fixed income. MF may double, but our fixed income will likely not change much.

It seems that you are not really looking for a solution to anything here. You have concerns/opinions about the ever rising MF and wanted to state your concerns, which is something many of us do. It somehow helps if we're not alone in our frustrations. Some disagree with your opinions and have said so. Nobody has disagreed with the fact that MFs continue to go up more than we would like. Some, I think out of frustration that the dialogue was circular, expressed frustration. Always classy and articulate, GregT focused the conversation asking what your end goal is. He offered, and I think many others feel the same way, to help if he could understand what you are trying to accomplish. Your responses have given us a clearer understanding of your concerns and challenges, but it still seems you are not looking for a solution. I mean this in the most objective, nonconfrontational way... Timesharing isn't for everyone. Marriott isn't for everyone. I usually tell my friends that it probably isn't for them, because I know them. I know how they vacation, how they spend/do not want to spend money. Only those that see how much our family has received from our ownership and really want to know more do I try to list all of the positives and negatives so they can make an informed decision. You have an ownership(s) that you seem to be happy with and find value in. Perhaps Marriott just isn't for you.

"Just thoughts... so how do we hedge our bets against the coming tide of change and increasing MF?"
This is just an unavoidable fact of timesharing. We will continue to work the system to our benefit as long as it is financially plausible for us. We will be reaching retirement age in the next 10 years and we hope to be able to continue to enjoy many more years of our ownership at that time...especially at that time. It would really hurt to have to give up our weeks, but on a fixed income who knows?
 
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Quadmaniac

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Just thoughts... so how do we hedge our bets against the coming tide of change and increasing MF?

Sell and rent when you want to go. No risk, no hedging, no commitments. When the rent becomes unacceptable, stop renting. Rents are not going up as fast as MF and soon it might be more advantageous to rent than own. That is already the case with points. If you can rent points for pretty much the same as the MF for them, why even invest the money to own them ? Does not make economic sense. You can rent as much or little as you want, whenever you want with no commitment to do it again next year. Problem solved.

If it worries you that much that it is keeping you up, spending all your time analyzing and scrutinizing the company, worrying about how you’re going to afford it, you can’t afford it. Be done with it as the MF will be too unstable with your fixed income if you know it is going up way too fast for your liking.
 

Dean

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First, I'm unclear why the heated and passionate (and multiple) responses. Former employee? Former Marriott Timeshare sales? Competitor sales? While there is an element of truth to much of what you post, it reminds me of a sales presentation where many half truths are thrown around. Marriott is a business and their responsibility in sales is to the business. I know many here disagree but the reality is that EVERY resale is a POTENTIAL retail sale lost. It is not their responsibility to support your or my resale options. I've been in timeshares 25 years also owning a number of Marriott weeks as well as Bluegreen and DVC points. I've participated in BBS about timeshares from before AG invented the internet including TUG for 20 years or more. Fortunately most of my purchase were resale and in fact, the 4 retail purchases (2 MVC, 1 DVC, 1 BG) were all strategic and came from a full understanding of the product and resale. I could sell all of my holdings and come out ahead overall if I wanted. Timeshares have been among some of my best choices in life, I'll keep all this in mind when we have 50 people in Hilton Head this summer on the beach at a Marriott Timeshare when I'm covering the accommodations, something I could not have done without the timeshare options.

The enrollment purchase dates have been documented. They continue to offer enrollment options for those that qualify, often for free. In addition, for the last 4 years (a portion of the year) they've offered enrollment options with a purchase of points or some weeks like the Caribbean.

NYSE: VAC, go into the financials. When current owners are in arrears Marriott, passes these costs on to the owners as well as part of the MF. There are other examples.... drill down
Maint fees fall to the owners for owned weeks and those that pay will cover the fees for those that don't, this is how timeshares work including Hyatt. MVC is not responsible for those fees. But they do pay the fees on the weeks/resorts they actually own, which is different that what's owned by the HOA.

Lots of hidden expenses, costs and fees are being passed on to owners in the MF. At the same time, lots of monies collected from rental, etc dont make it back as credits to offset MF because Marriott milks them with exorbitant fees.

The points system has made it even easier to pass on these hidden costs and fees to owners rather Marriott itself having to pay these.
Points and costs are what they are. They will increase and it's not a perfect system. The biggest issue is they allow sales to sell every point like it's a prime week without guarantee of availability. Thus it's you vs me for the best reservations. We could all vote with our feet, some here have.

Again, talked to thousands of Marriott owners on other sites for YEARS, never heard of this until just now.
You haven't talked to the right groups, not sure what sites you were own but apparently they were not very educated when it comes to timeshares, esp Marriott.

LIMITED KNOWLEDGE? LOL. I've been a timeshare owner for 25 years.
Me to and your knowledge as posted is full of half truths and is very narrow in view. Again, I'm unsure of your purpose or history.

BTW, you didn't deny it when someone questioned whether you were previously posting similar information under a different registration.
 

frank808

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In all the timeshare presentations I’ve gone to, sometimes multiple times in certain locations, I’ve never given them my ID to hold onto. Whether it be Marriott, Westin, Sheraton, Hyatt, never once have they taken my ID. Most times they don’t even ask to see it. That’s how I know you lack a broad based experience of timeshares as you are probably basing it on one experience possible in Mexico or something. We can certainly take a survey to see how many users here have ever had the company take and hold onto your ID.

I’ve never had an issue getting anyone at the front desk. So again I call limited experience.
Never had my wifes or I id taken at marriott, Hilton or dvc sales office. Although I am not invited to attend any at HHV anymore. Also will not spend 1 sec at Marriott koolina for 5000 Marriott reward points. Now if I can get a 25k mrp offer in Orlando I will sit through it. Then when the salesperson sees my weeks of ownership, I always get asked why I am here. Usually makes the presentations short at Marriott and Hilton when they finally look at printout with my ownerships.

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