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Marriott making it impossible to buy/sell resales

NotNew

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What I said about shareholders vs timeshare owners :D

I bought all my timeshares resale and they're making me money renting them out. Marriott owes me nothing other than providing the service I paid for. Beyond that they are not there to earn money for me, that isn't what they were promising me. If I want that, then I should be shareholder and then they have a responsibility to me to make me money

Obviously not everyone can make money from renting... You can go to just about any rental site and see thousands that went unrented. I would definitely buy for rentals, if I could at least break even at worst and sometimes make a small profit.
 

SeaDoc

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1 Marriott Timber Lodge - Summer-PLAT;
3 StarElite Vistana: 2 Westin Lagunamar-PLAT
Our corporate entity is VAC, not MAR...


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NotNew

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r corporate entity is VAC, not MAR...

Exactly what I said... :D I said you also have to see MAR. Where do you think the management fees, etc end up for certain transactions, etc.
 
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What I'm very interested in watching are MF on points... at current rate it looks like .60 (current MF cost) becomes $1 in 9 years. Then 7000 points for a Hawaii week are about par for just renting in the first place, especially interesting to me as family members were told some years ago rental prices would go way up by now... instead in 10-15 years since purchase of these properties the rental prices really havent changed all that much, meanwhile MF more than DOUBLED
 

VacationForever

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What I'm very interested in watching are MF on points... at current rate it looks like .60 (current MF cost) becomes $1 in 9 years. Then 7000 points for a Hawaii week are about par for just renting in the first place.
You definitely have a bone to pick with Marriott. If you would share why and what.
 

NotNew

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You definitely have a bone to pick with Marriott. If you would share why and wh

Point of matter, I am neither pro nor anti. Statement of facts doesnt mean bone to pick. Some may not like the facts. Also, thought TUG was a site where enlightenment n truth were sort of the point, rather than towing the party/developer line.
 

VacationForever

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Point of matter, I am neither pro nor anti. Statement of facts doesnt mean bone to pick. Some may not like the facts. Also, thought TUG was a site where enlightenment n truth were sort of the point, rather than towing the party/developer line.
Your post is only partially fact driven as we have established.
 

NotNew

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Oh gosh, partially fact driven again.... please go back to the OP
 

Quadmaniac

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What I said about shareholders vs timeshare owners :D

Obviously not everyone can make money from renting... You can go to just about any rental site and see thousands that went unrented. I would definitely buy for rentals, if I could at least break even at worst and sometimes make a small profit.

You are right not everyone can, its about picking the right resorts and knowing the market. Its not any different from normal real estate. Some will make money from it and some won't. It all depends upon your research, planning, evaluation of the market and sometimes luck as well. Most timeshare owners are not knowledgeable about what they own, how to use it and what the real market is for what they own and that onus is on them. It is definitely possible to make money renting timeshares out, you just need to research which ones will make you money.
 

VacationForever

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Would like to buy Marriott resales, really would, but every year, Marriott gets more greedy and devalues their own product while simultaneously artificially raising prices. From ~$10 a point a few years ago (at developer cost) to an artificially inflated ~$15 a point today (with absolutely NO market driving the increases except for corporate greed).

It is something like $14.10, not $15 and with discount it ends up as about $11.

If timeshares are deeded real estate and the original purchaser already paid the developer costs. Why does Marriott make it impossible to resell and get back any of your investment? Hyatt, as an example, never did this, it was simply a few hundred $$$ for the transfer fees and the buyer retained all the value. Marriott takes all privileges away from those who buy resales, except the right to stay at home resort.

In general, no system other than DVC, keeps its value when resold. Prior to Destination Club launch, Marriott weeks could only be used at their home resort, traded in RCI (old resorts) and II, plus the ability to convert to MRPs. Resale weeks only lose the ability to convert to MRPs. This is the same perk that is lost on a resale Hyatt week. With introduction of Destination Points program, week owners have not lost what they do not have in the first place.

Deeded timeshares MF go up 3-5% every year like clockwork, often without any precipitating expenses or event driving them -- other than Marriott charging more management fees. Further when Marriott rents deeded timeshares, only 10-15% of these monies are returned to the timeshare system to offset actual costs, while Marriott pockets 85-90% for fees. If 85-90% was instead returned to the timeshare system, MF would actual remain fairly constant.

Management fees is a fixed percentage of MF fees. Marriott owns their weeks and can make money on them, similar to us owners. They pay the same MF as the rest of us. Nothing nefarious.

Points are also supposed to be real estate, but Marriott makes it even harder to resell points and get back any value. Marriott now charges an artificial rate of $3 per point to register resale points (up from an already exorbitant $2 previously). With points, owners are left paying MF on unsold property in the trust, when Marriott would have otherwise have had to pay these expenses. Point MF which were at inception more than deeded timeshares (because points owners are paying MF on property no one yet owns) and have only increased over time. A whopping .58 per point, on the way to .60 for 2020.

Owners do not pay MF on unsold trust inventory. Marriott pays MF on them.


With points, two things would dramatically reduce the per point MF. #1 Getting Marriott to foot the bill (as it should have all along) for unused/unsold property in the land trust), #2 Reducing the exorbitant management fees Marriott charges owners. These are examples, there are more of course, but these are some of the reasons Marriott (and other timeshare companies) went to a points-based system. Another: No HOAs for oversight of Marriott mismanagement and overcharges.

Marriott does foot their own bill. Management fee is a fixed percentage of MF. Every timeshare system is the same, whether it is Hyatt, Hilton or Wyndham.

Left unsaid another reason for the move to points: Marriott literally has a license to sell AIR (points backed by no tangible property). Marriott can do this because owner use their points for non-property stays: tours, cruises, etc which are the worst use of points as all you are getting back in value terms are your maintenance fees (and completely omitting all the up front monies paid in).

Every trust point is backed by deeded weeks. Dioxide has links that point to where to find this information. Again, you are making up stuff.

Speaking of upfront costs: Having sat in on quite a few sales pitches, every salesman always tells my family members to forget about the monies they paid upfront and only calculate the cost based on their maintenance fees. As in "your 7-night Hawaii stay is only costing you $300 a night, your saving 60%)" "but what about the money paid upfront" i say. "you've already paid that and got back the value in previous stays" "point of fact: no we havent, in fact, when I calculate all up front costs, MF, and other fees, were paying $800 a night and we will continue paying $800 a night because the MF never go away and only increase over time" "no no that's not how it works, you dont understand the system." REAL CONVERSATION, REAL ACTUAL COSTS.

Points, even at, 50% of developer costs are way overvalued. Primarily because Marriott artificially sets and raises the pricing, but also because Marriott not only rolled out points in the middle of the largest economic downturn in modern history but had the gall to actually inflate point pricing 150% relative to current deeded pricing. AND people lined up to pay it. Head shake.

So my long rant on all this... Looking forward to hearing yours as well as opposing views.
 

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It is something like $14.10, not $15 and with discount it ends up as about $11.

Please check pricing for the Q2 2019. Please check actual discounting being offered (and what's required to get any actual discount at all.


In general, no system other than DVC, keeps its value when resold. Prior to Destination Club launch, Marriott weeks could only be used at their home resort, traded in RCI (old resorts) and II, plus the ability to convert to MRPs. Resale weeks only lose the ability to convert to MRPs. This is the same perk that is lost on a resale Hyatt week. With introduction of Destination Points program, week owners have not lost what they do not have in the first place.

Um, weeks owners didnt have to buy points. They could be converted into the system for a fee then got access to points and trades anywhere....

Check your facts please. Points and vacation anywhere was advertised by Marriott sales as a benefit for several years before DVC was introduced so many thousands bought based on the promise AND no one anywhere ever said there would be strings attached, so your point is incorrect and invalid.

Management fees is a fixed percentage of MF fees.
Marriott owns their weeks and can make money on them, similar to us owners. They pay the same MF as the rest of us. Nothing nefarious.

Spend a little more time in the financials please... You aren't seeing all the costs, fees, expenses and how they are paid out unless you do.

Take a little time to see how rentals work and how much fees are taken back by Marriott as well. Thanks
 

Quadmaniac

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Please check pricing for the Q2 2019. Please check actual discounting being offered (and what's required to get any actual discount at all.




Um, weeks owners didnt have to buy points. They could be converted into the system for a fee then got access to points and trades anywhere....

Check your facts please. Points and vacation anywhere was advertised by Marriott sales as a benefit for several years before DVC was introduced so many thousands bought based on the promise AND no one anywhere ever said there would be strings attached, so your point is incorrect and invalid.



Spend a little more time in the financials please... You aren't seeing all the costs, fees, expenses and how they are paid out unless you do.

Take a little time to see how rentals work and how much fees are taken back by Marriott as well. Thanks
I would have to honestly say, most people don't really care nor do we have any say in how Marriott runs things. Marriott is in the business of making money and I don't see them being any different from any other business trying to profit by bundling their services together to create an enjoyable product.

I think you might want to spend LESS time on financials and trying to enjoy your vacations. Life is short and if you want to waste it picking over things of how a business runs, have at it, but I would rather be in Hawaii enjoying the beach and Marriott facilities. That's just my 2 cents on it.
 

Quadmaniac

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What I'm very interested in watching are MF on points... at current rate it looks like .60 (current MF cost) becomes $1 in 9 years. Then 7000 points for a Hawaii week are about par for just renting in the first place, especially interesting to me as family members were told some years ago rental prices would go way up by now... instead in 10-15 years since purchase of these properties the rental prices really havent changed all that much, meanwhile MF more than DOUBLED

There's a new concept...it's called saying whatever you can to make a sale. If you really believe what a timeshare salesperson says as fact, you're in for a rude awaking. Of course they're going to exaggerate to make a sale and make it seem obvious that this is the best deal ever and you will save money buying into their program.
 

VacationForever

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I would have to honestly say, most people don't really care nor do we have any say in how Marriott runs things. Marriott is in the business of making money and I don't see them being any different from any other business trying to profit by bundling their services together to create an enjoyable product.

I think you might want to spend LESS time on financials and trying to enjoy your vacations. Life is short and if you want to waste it picking over things of how a business runs, have at it, but I would rather be in Hawaii enjoying the beach and Marriott facilities. That's just my 2 cents on it.
Well said! We have nothing but great vacations, memories and looking forward for more to come, all made possible by timesharing and mostly with MVC! :) :thumbup:
 

Quadmaniac

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Please check pricing for the Q2 2019. Please check actual discounting being offered (and what's required to get any actual discount at all.

I think this is irrelevant as most are not going to buy directly from Marriott anyways if they are on this site and have done research into the system. If someone was truly getting into it and wanted to buy from Marriott specifically, they would buy a hybrid package that has been discussed a number of times on a regular basis here. Whether it is $11, 10, or $9.52, it doesn't matter.


Um, weeks owners didnt have to buy points. They could be converted into the system for a fee then got access to points and trades anywhere....

Check your facts please. Points and vacation anywhere was advertised by Marriott sales as a benefit for several years before DVC was introduced so many thousands bought based on the promise AND no one anywhere ever said there would be strings attached, so your point is incorrect and invalid.

That isn't quite correct. Weeks owners were given the OPTION to enroll in the DP system if they purchased prior to its release in 2010. This was not a promise to weeks owners at the time that owners originally purchased their weeks. The points they were promised was the MRP and that is still applicable if you were the original owner. There is nothing in the documents that says that a new owner would be entitled to the same benefits as the original purchaser. Please remember it is their ball park and their rules. If you go to the ball park, you follow their rules or you don't go in.



Spend a little more time in the financials please... You aren't seeing all the costs, fees, expenses and how they are paid out unless you do.

Take a little time to see how rentals work and how much fees are taken back by Marriott as well. Thanks

What difference would it make if someone was to do this ? Would it change things in some way for most users ? Most are just thinking about a vacation at a nice facility with a certain standard that is pleasing to them. Am I going to stress about Marriott making money off of me ? Probably not. If they aren't making money off of me, they won't be around very long and I won't be taking any vacations to their properties. I'm not suggesting highway robbery, but there is an expectation that they can't charge me their cost, that's just idiotic. Everyone has to make money, that's why they're in business.
 

csalter2

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Would like to buy Marriott resales, really would, but every year, Marriott gets more greedy and devalues their own product while simultaneously artificially raising prices. From ~$10 a point a few years ago (at developer cost) to an artificially inflated ~$15 a point today (with absolutely NO market driving the increases except for corporate greed).

If timeshares are deeded real estate and the original purchaser already paid the developer costs. Why does Marriott make it impossible to resell and get back any of your investment? Hyatt, as an example, never did this, it was simply a few hundred $$$ for the transfer fees and the buyer retained all the value. Marriott takes all privileges away from those who buy resales, except the right to stay at home resort.

Deeded timeshares MF go up 3-5% every year like clockwork, often without any precipitating expenses or event driving them -- other than Marriott charging more management fees. Further when Marriott rents deeded timeshares, only 10-15% of these monies are returned to the timeshare system to offset actual costs, while Marriott pockets 85-90% for fees. If 85-90% was instead returned to the timeshare system, MF would actual remain fairly constant.

Points are also supposed to be real estate, but Marriott makes it even harder to resell points and get back any value. Marriott now charges an artificial rate of $3 per point to register resale points (up from an already exorbitant $2 previously). With points, owners are left paying MF on unsold property in the trust, when Marriott would have otherwise have had to pay these expenses. Point MF which were at inception more than deeded timeshares (because points owners are paying MF on property no one yet owns) and have only increased over time. A whopping .58 per point, on the way to .60 for 2020.

With points, two things would dramatically reduce the per point MF. #1 Getting Marriott to foot the bill (as it should have all along) for unused/unsold property in the land trust), #2 Reducing the exorbitant management fees Marriott charges owners. These are examples, there are more of course, but these are some of the reasons Marriott (and other timeshare companies) went to a points-based system. Another: No HOAs for oversight of Marriott mismanagement and overcharges.

Left unsaid another reason for the move to points: Marriott literally has a license to sell AIR (points backed by no tangible property). Marriott can do this because owner use their points for non-property stays: tours, cruises, etc which are the worst use of points as all you are getting back in value terms are your maintenance fees (and completely omitting all the up front monies paid in).

Speaking of upfront costs: Having sat in on quite a few sales pitches, every salesman always tells my family members to forget about the monies they paid upfront and only calculate the cost based on their maintenance fees. As in "your 7-night Hawaii stay is only costing you $300 a night, your saving 60%)" "but what about the money paid upfront" i say. "you've already paid that and got back the value in previous stays" "point of fact: no we havent, in fact, when I calculate all up front costs, MF, and other fees, were paying $800 a night and we will continue paying $800 a night because the MF never go away and only increase over time" "no no that's not how it works, you dont understand the system." REAL CONVERSATION, REAL ACTUAL COSTS.

Points, even at, 50% of developer costs are way overvalued. Primarily because Marriott artificially sets and raises the pricing, but also because Marriott not only rolled out points in the middle of the largest economic downturn in modern history but had the gall to actually inflate point pricing 150% relative to current deeded pricing. AND people lined up to pay it. Head shake.

So my long rant on all this... Looking forward to hearing yours as well as opposing views.


I am going to share some information that I believe could be useful for this conversation. Now if you are saying that points are too expensive, that is for sure certain and I think Tuggers here would agree. However, those who bought weeks, particularly those who bought them resale and there are some who have paid almost nothing, they can most certainly tell you that they have had the deal of a lifetime BEFORE points.

You state that you have talked with “thousands of owners”, well we all know thousands of owners who don’t have a clue on how to maximize their ownership. There are many here who more than profit from there timeshares and/or go on vacations for free due to their timeshare purchases. However, I am just going to look at my timeshare which I purchased directly from Marriott back in 2003. It is a one week purchase for $25,000. It is now enrolled in the Destinations Program which I did back when the program started in 2003. Using this year’s maintenance fees, I pay 2315.00. That’s not what I have always paid, but that’s the current amount. I am going to round it to $2300 for this exercise. Over 20 years, which I will exceed health willing, If I add my current maintenance fee to my purchase price (divided over 20 years) that would be $2300 + $1250 = $3550. That total of $3550 would be my total cost of initial outlay and current maintenance fees.. If I divide that amount by 7 days for the use of the full two bedrooms that comes out to $507 per night and if I lock it off and get accommodations for 14 nights that comes out to $250 per night.(3550/7 =$507 & 3550/14 = 250. Now understand that my accommodations are quite nice at this resort. I get to look at the ocean/marina and if is very nice. So after reading your rant, I went to Kayak.com and I looked at what the cheapest rate I could find for a week in July which is when I go and I did not even select July 4th week which I have stayed several times. The cheapest I saw was Kuhio Banyan for $61/per night with a total cost of about $540 for the week. However, it’s just not a place that my wife would approve and the level of accommodations and amenities are just not up to the standards she and my kids are accustomed. There are many other places that are cheaper, but there is no view of an ocean unless you move up to an ocean view level room and then you started paying more. I searched for a place that was in the range of my studio side to see what I could get for $250/night. I saw a place for $253 called The Royal Hawaiian, A Luxury Collection Resort in Waikiki. Well, the total cost for 7 nights is $2486.62 but again no view of the ocean and a single two bedded room. Remember I get 14 nights for that rate and that includes my original cost.

I also often travel with kids and grandkids so I need space and beds. I can rent points for an additional $1200 or so dollars hundred dollars and get a 3 bedroom if I so desired. Again, HUGE SAVINGS with superior accommodations.

I am just touching the tip of the iceberg. Last year, I bought two more properties from Marriott. I did because I wanted more time and family accommodations. I bought the weeks in Aruba and Ocean Pointe for more than the resale but not by too much. I rented the studio sides of those two properties and am still going on vacation at those the locations. It’s all profit because Marriott paid for the maintenance fees. In addition, Marriott gave me a bonus week, I rented that to someone.

In conclusion, I hear what you say about rising interest rates. I have interest rates that have been rising too and they should ably handle my maintenance fees as I travel around the world. There are others on this site that do a lot of different creative ways to maximize what they have. So in a limited view, you may be right. However, that is not the case for everyone. Some people do very well.
 

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I've talked with thousands of current/former owners on other sites. If you say they did, you'd be the first I've ever heard of in 25 years.

Please, do tell, what sites and thousands of owners were blessed with so much misinformation?


Thanks also for getting the conversation started. Really do want all viewpoints!!

Don't buy this at all

Put your current MF cost into a savings calculator at 5% with $0 deposits for 20 years to see where you'll be in terms of costs and what expense you wll be passing on to your family.

What on earth expense will I be passing on to my family? This has been debunked over and over again.

It's important to know what MF are going to be in the future to see if you can afford them.

Gee, just like my house. Need to know what the taxes and refurbishment costs will be for the next 30 years.

This thread reminds me of dog chasing its tail. Good luck folks.

Dead on
 

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There's a new concept...it's called saying whatever you can to make a sale. If you really believe what a timeshare salesperson says as fact, you're in for a rude awaking. Of course they're going to exaggerate to make a sale and make it seem obvious that this is the best deal ever and you will save money buying into their program.

For sure... well said. Best deal ever was only ever to be found in a resale.
 

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This was not a promise to weeks owners at the time that owners originally purchased their weeks. The points they were promised was the MRP and that is still applicable if you were the original owner. There is nothing in the documents that says that a new owner would be entitled to the same benefits as the original purchaser. Please remember it is their ball park and their rules. If you go to the ball park, you follow their rules or you don't go in

Having been present during sales pitches for it... it was ABSOLUTELY a promise made and one made multiple times by multiple people at multiple locations.
 

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Having been present during sales pitches for it... it was ABSOLUTELY a promise made and one made multiple times by multiple people at multiple locations.

We’re talking about prior to 2010 when they were selling weeks. How can they promise something that did not exist ?
 

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full two bedrooms that comes out to $507 per night a

$507 per night.... is on the money... locking it off with wife and kids into a studio / 1 bedroom? I'm not seeing it happen actually so I sincerely doubt you are doing the $250 option.

Now if you do, there have been years off an on where you can get Marriott/Ocean/Hawaii studio's from Marriott at $199 a night --- many in fact.

AND at $507 a night... you aren't far off the actual nightly cost for Marriott/Ocean/Hawaii up until about 2010 or so.

I bought the weeks in Aruba and Ocean Pointe for more than the resale but not by too much. I rented the studio sides of those two properties and am still going on vacation at those the locations. It’s all profit because Marriott paid for the maintenance fees. In addition, Marriott gave me a bonus week, I rented that to someone.

I like the idea of buying resales and being able to rent out part to recoup MF.

But I see so many units that never ever rent, even at hot locations like HAWAII and the CARIBBEAN.
 

TXTortoise

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I think Pathways has more support than you give him credit for as this is starting to feel like trolling from someone that's only been on TUG for two days and hasn't taken the time to learn a bit from a whole bunch of other useful threads...assuming learning is the objective. Starting to lose track of what the whole point was...

If you really want to buy resale, then search on hybrids, e.g., CSalter specifically, or Dean for trades....and project your future cost and decide if it's worth it to you. You have to match 'your' requirements to the solution..just too many ways to leverage Marriott ownership/usage to fixate on the usual points at retail and 5% growth of MFs argument, as significant as that is in your decision.
 
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