Marriott and ILG

[vikingsholm]

Thanks for some of the clarification from Hyatt owners. I've traded into Hyatts and like them a lot, but don't really understand the details of the current and pre-ILG Hyatt systems. Hyatt Aspen is one of the nicer timeshares we've stayed at, though the Ritz Aspen and Vail are just as good if not better, although the intown location of Hyatt Aspen is a bonus. The other Hyatts we've traded into are Sedona and Carmel. Both quite nice, though I'd put the Marriott Desert Springs, Timber Lodge/GRC, Newport Coast, several Hawaii properties, and the remodeled Summit Watch against either of those - and I haven't been to any east coast Marriotts to compare to those. I wouldn't mind better access to Hyatts again, but with the Ritz's and more wide ranging locations of all Marriotts, I could stick with just those if necessary and if the new system makes it too costly for Marriott owners to access Hyatts.

It sounds like the HPP is similar to Marriott DC points? If so, I'm shocked that it cost $13k to enroll in that, where it was only $695 for enrolling one Marriott legacy week and $1995 for any number of multiple legacy weeks bought prior to the cutoff date in 2010. Maybe there's more to the HPP that I don't understand though. I suspect Marriott will make it affordable and easy for Hyatt owners to access Marriotts and Westins, and maybe even make it free for those who already paid the HPP fee. Who knows though?

While Hyatts are very nice, I think your owners who travel a lot will come to appreciate easier access to Marriotts and Westins. The wider range of locations and good quality do make for a greater range of interesting choices. I also suspect that original owners of Marriott, Hyatt, and Westin will all have some degree of preference and protection for trades within their own systems, even as the possibilities open for more trades into these other systems within certain timeframe windows, etc., based on level of points ownership or similar criteria. I agree with suzannesimon that Marriott is likely to treat Hyatt owners better than you expect, and certainly better than ILG did.

 

[bdh]

What Kal said is important. There is another aspect to this. When the units were initially sold, they were sold as part of a system. Each unit week had an assigned point value in this system. If Marriott makes some kind of system you have to enroll your deeded week into, then it necessarily removes that week from the current HRC system, which will negatively impact everyone in the HRC system. If they keep the unit week inside of the pool of HRC, but charge an enrollment fee, then they are adding a fee for something that was sold as part of the original ownership. Either way, not great for HRC owners who trade their weeks.

A FWIW: When Hyatt sold the original HRC deeded week, it was just that - a guaranteed week and a specific unit that is real property with a recorded deed. The rules noted that the ability to do internal exchanges within the Hyatt system was a benefit/feature that was not guaranteed and could be eliminated at any time. (Insert axiom of "buy a location you'd be ok with visiting on a regular basis")

Marriott or Hyatt's main objective is to make money - typically by selling TS. They will not/can not require an HRC owner to turn over their deed. You can volunteer to do that when buying HPP (not sure why anyone would).

 

[Sapper]

A FWIW: When Hyatt sold the original HRC deeded week, it was just that - a guaranteed week and a specific unit that is real property with a recorded deed. The rules noted that the ability to do internal exchanges within the Hyatt system was a benefit/feature that was not guaranteed and could be eliminated at any time. (Insert axiom of "buy a location you'd be ok with visiting on a regular basis")

Marriott or Hyatt's main objective is to make money - typically by selling TS. They will not/can not require an HRC owner to turn over their deed. You can volunteer to do that when buying HPP (not sure why anyone would).

Ok, fair enough, it was a specific week and unit number. This makes me even less interested in any changes Marriott may offer.

 

[NWTRVLRS]

Thanks for some of the clarification from Hyatt owners. I've traded into Hyatts and like them a lot, but don't really understand the details of the current and pre-ILG Hyatt systems. Hyatt Aspen is one of the nicer timeshares we've stayed at, though the Ritz Aspen and Vail are just as good if not better, although the intown location of Hyatt Aspen is a bonus. The other Hyatts we've traded into are Sedona and Carmel. Both quite nice, though I'd put the Marriott Desert Springs, Timber Lodge/GRC, Newport Coast, several Hawaii properties, and the remodeled Summit Watch against either of those - and I haven't been to any east coast Marriotts to compare to those. I wouldn't mind better access to Hyatts again, but with the Ritz's and more wide ranging locations of all Marriotts, I could stick with just those if necessary and if the new system makes it too costly for Marriott owners to access Hyatts.

It sounds like the HPP is similar to Marriott DC points? If so, I'm shocked that it cost $13k to enroll in that, where it was only $695 for enrolling one Marriott legacy week and $1995 for any number of multiple legacy weeks bought prior to the cutoff date in 2010. Maybe there's more to the HPP that I don't understand though. I suspect Marriott will make it affordable and easy for Hyatt owners to access Marriotts and Westins, and maybe even make it free for those who already paid the HPP fee. Who knows though?

While Hyatts are very nice, I think your owners who travel a lot will come to appreciate easier access to Marriotts and Westins. The wider range of locations and good quality do make for a greater range of interesting choices. I also suspect that original owners of Marriott, Hyatt, and Westin will all have some degree of preference and protection for trades within their own systems, even as the possibilities open for more trades into these other systems within certain timeframe windows, etc., based on level of points ownership or similar criteria. I agree with suzannesimon that Marriott is likely to treat Hyatt owners better than you expect, and certainly better than ILG did.

The reason for the $13k is that you have to buy a specified amount of points to be able to join the points program... and those specific points have a higher maintenance fee then anyone is paying at Pinon Pointe, so I think it is a very hard sell for those of us that own here to consider paying that much.
And then the buy in gives you the option of choosing or not choosing to enroll your deeded week each year... we just sat through the owner update yesterday, and did not choose to join... and it has been interesting chatting with people on property who also attended... and they all said th same thing... “I don’t get this!”

 

[vikingsholm]

The reason for the $13k is that you have to buy a specified amount of points to be able to join the points program... and those specific points have a higher maintenance fee then anyone is paying at Pinon Pointe, so I think it is a very hard sell for those of us that own here to consider paying that much.
And then the buy in gives you the option of choosing or not choosing to enroll your deeded week each year... we just sat through the owner update yesterday, and did not choose to join... and it has been interesting chatting with people on property who also attended... and they all said th same thing... “I don’t get this!”

Does that $13k simply allow you to join the points program (and then have the choice of enrolling your deeded week each year), or is it like buying an entire new set of points too, that are the equivalent of having another week's worth of points to trade in addition to your existing deeded week that you can either use, or convert to points for trading each year? So in essence you've bought an entire additional week (via points) with that $13k, plus the ability to enroll your existing deeded week into the points program each year? Then, you'd now have two full weeks worth of ownership via the combination of your existing deeded week plus a new group of points that give you a second week's worth of ownership by spending that $13k?

It sounds like this is similar to buying trust points, and therefore an additional week of ownership above and beyond your existing deeded week. But it also sounds like you are required to buy these for $13k in order to use your existing week in the points system at all - unlike Marriott, where you can simply enroll your legacy week for $695 to join the points system without buying any new trust points, but you don't get an extra batch of trust points for doing that, only the ability to use your week with its designated number of points each year if you want to.

Sorry if this is redundant for Hyatt owners here - I'm just interested in and trying to understand the Hyatt points system as it looks like it will be merging with Marriott VC.

If the $13k gives you the additional points (like buying trust points separately from Marriott in addition to the week that you already own), then I can understand why it may cost more like that. But if all it does is give you the right to convert your one existing deeded week to points each year for trading, then it seems like it's comparing that $13k to the Marriott $695 one time fee for enrolling an existing legacy week, which is quite a large difference.

 

[Kal]

To participate in the HPP you have to purchase 660 new points at $2/point = $13,200. Then you have the annual option to transfer your owned unit into the HPP. If it is a 2000 point unit, you then will have 2660 HPP points. The comparison to Marriott is $695 vs $13,200 for similar products. For the HPP, you pay a MF which today is about $1,900 per unit per year. IMHO, that number will increase next year.

 

[stover33]

It will be interesting to see how the integration impacts exchanging. Will Marriott/Hyatt owners have internal exchange capability across the 2 systems, or will it still be done through II external exchanges, as always? If the systems are combined I could see pluses and minuses for Hyatt owners, on the plus side it may be easier to get into higher-demand Marriott resorts. On the minus side there are more Marriott owners than Hyatt, and Hyatt has some very desirable and exclusive locations which could potentially be even tougher to trade into if Marriott owners were in the same pool.

The fact sheet from Marriott (posted on the Marriott discussion thread - http://ir.marriottvacationsworldwide.com/static-files/9398e4bc-c058-433a-a9b7-6d7f099394e2) does mention increased revenue from exchanges with Hyatt etc., but it's hard to tell if that is referring to II exchanges, or a new combined internal exchange system.

 

[VacationForever]

It will be interesting to see how the integration impacts exchanging. Will Marriott/Hyatt owners have internal exchange capability across the 2 systems, or will it still be done through II external exchanges, as always? If the systems are combined I could see pluses and minuses for Hyatt owners, on the plus side it may be easier to get into higher-demand Marriott resorts. On the minus side there are more Marriott owners than Hyatt, and Hyatt has some very desirable and exclusive locations which could potentially be even tougher to trade into if Marriott owners were in the same pool.

The fact sheet from Marriott (posted on the Marriott discussion thread - http://ir.marriottvacationsworldwide.com/static-files/9398e4bc-c058-433a-a9b7-6d7f099394e2) does mention increased revenue from exchanges with Hyatt etc., but it's hard to tell if that is referring to II exchanges, or a new combined internal exchange system.

The acquisition is not meant to save money for owners but just as the opposite, i.e. to make more money for its shareholders. No reason for VAC to stop charging exchange fees in II for exchanges between the 3 brands.

I expect points acquired through developer purchase will have the ability to utilize internal exchanges at 9 months out or something and may even charge a $99 exchange fee. Just look at the Wyndham model for cross booking into the other 2 systems using developer purchased points for booking Wyndham/Worldmark/Shell.

 

[heathpack]

Since Marriott bought an exchange company, it seems to me that they would use the exchange company (ie Interval) to make exchanges. I’ll bet they keep the Destination Club but I would be surprised if there were exchange systems for their hotel-branded timeshares and then II for everyone else. They’ll probably want lots of good inventory in II, maybe they’ll even sell some sort of II points, like RCI sells RCI points.

 

[vikingsholm]

To participate in the HPP you have to purchase 660 new points at $2/point = $13,200. Then you have the annual option to transfer your owned unit into the HPP. If it is a 2000 point unit, you then will have 2660 HPP points. The comparison to Marriott is $695 vs $13,200 for similar products. For the HPP, you pay a MF which today is about $1,900 per unit per year. IMHO, that number will increase next year.

Thanks for answering, Kal. That makes it pretty clear to me now. Quite pricey compared to Marriott's point system introduction for legacy owners though.

One last question - is the $1,900 MF you mention covering both the deeded week ownership and the 2660 points? I presume it is, and is not an additional new annual fee on top of the already existing MF for the deeded week.

I would love to be a fly on the wall listening to the management debating and discussing how they are going to integrate all of these systems. It will be an interesting and complex puzzle. My experience with Marriott when they went to points was that they were pretty fair and flexible when it came to designing and adjusting the system as new developments emerged, at least for us legacy owners. I expect this will be similar with Hyatt and Westin incorporation.

There will be some pluses and minuses, but on net I think they'll want to treat the owners of these beautiful new properties fairly, gain their confidence, and keep them happy. I suspect that owning more units/points coming in will be a big advantage in joining/converting more cheaply to a new expanded system, though whether those are treated differently if originally developer vs. resale purchases is an open question.

Bottom line IMO is that Marriott will want to expand availability of all systems' units through points exchanges rapidly, I suspect, so will have some good incentives. I still think they'll offer favoritism and preferences for owners within-original system reservations and trades though, as they do with Marriott now, and base new inter-system exchanges partly on higher ownership levels getting better treatment. They will of course want to sell a lot of new points to existing and brand new customers, and after all, that will be a big part of their bread and butter.

 

[heathpack]

My take on DC is that it’s a good product, a little expensive, but not a bad value.

My guess is that Marriott will come up with something similar for II members. It will probably be better than the current II but more expensive. Those who find the current II system works well for them won’t be happy. Those who use their weeks won’t find much value. People who exchange a lot will find more opportunities at greater cost.

Hopefully there will be a little grandfathering to keep current owners/members happy.

We were at Disneyland yesterday and I saw the DVC booths, people getting signed up for tours. I actually wanted to go over and say to those people: DVC is a great product, if you can afford it and want to go to Disney repeatedly, you should buy.

So obviously Disney has done a great job with me! I can even understand buying from the developer with DVC.

 

[Sapper]

Thanks for answering, Kal. That makes it pretty clear to me now. Quite pricey compared to Marriott's point system introduction for legacy owners though.

One last question - is the $1,900 MF you mention covering both the deeded week ownership and the 2660 points? I presume it is, and is not an additional new annual fee on top of the already existing MF for the deeded week.
.

New fee for HPP points PLUS the maintenance dues on the original owned unit/week.

Now you are starting to see why most think it's a horrid program.

 

[Sapper]

My take on DC is that it’s a good product, a little expensive, but not a bad value.

My guess is that Marriott will come up with something similar for II members. It will probably be better than the current II but more expensive. Those who find the current II system works well for them won’t be happy. Those who use their weeks won’t find much value. People who exchange a lot will find more opportunities at greater cost.

Hopefully there will be a little grandfathering to keep current owners/members happy.

We were at Disneyland yesterday and I saw the DVC booths, people getting signed up for tours. I actually wanted to go over and say to those people: DVC is a great product, if you can afford it and want to go to Disney repeatedly, you should buy.

So obviously Disney has done a great job with me! I can even understand buying from the developer with DVC.

Marriott can't charge too much more, or people will simply stop buying or stop trading, and just use other options for travel (VRBO, AirB&B, etc). One of the driving forces in the timeshare community is long term cost for vacations. Make that cost too high, and they will loose customers / market share (of total vacation housing).

 

[vikingsholm]

New fee for HPP points PLUS the maintenance dues on the original owned unit/week.

Now you are starting to see why most think it's a horrid program.

Yikes Sapper, that is pretty bad. I think Marriott will offer something much better for Hyatt owners.

Regarding your other reply to heathpack, I agree with that too. I'm guessing Marriott will offer some annual trading/points reservation fee for owners of the various systems in this new combined entity, similar to the annual MVC fee. We pay $200-250 per year and in return get unlimited no cost week-week trades within the Marriott system (it used to be $129-$159 for each Marriott-Marriott trade in II separately), plus unlimited use of points reservations for this one fee per year.

Both week-week and points trades and reservations can be cancelled before 60 days of the res. without a penalty fee and re-used on other trades/reservations freely, and can be reused/re-reserved for free even if cancelled within 60 days, but with some re-use limits on those short term upcoming 60 day window reservation cancellations. So if they offer a similar deal to Hyatt and Vistana owners after the merger, trades and points usage costs are pretty reasonably structured. But the more you own, the better deal you get, by making many of these reservations and trades each year, for one annual fee instead of per trade or per reservation.

 

[Kal]

My guess is Marriott will be hands off the HRC/HPP system. Their benefit will be greater sales opportunities and showing they provide a full suite of high-end timeshare systems.

HPP members will have greater access to the Marriott properties and Marriott owners will have access thru HPP to Hyatt properties. For HRC, it will likely be business as always. Exchanges thru II might be expanded, but I doubt it. Any beneficial change would only occur if it results in increasing Marriott's profit margin. The "Hyatt" management structure will likely not change; thus the annual increase in MF will continue and the profit centered business decisions will continue. Whenever there is a business buy out, the first words will be "we're not going to change something that is financially successful, that's why we bought the Hyatt System".

A clarification on HPP maintenance fees. The HRC MF will continue as always even if the owner uses the annual transfer option. The HPP MF will be based on the actual number of HPP points purchased, but will likely increase over time. For 660 HPP points the MF will be about $600 on top of the HRC MF.

 

[dioxide45]

If the $13k gives you the additional points (like buying trust points separately from Marriott in addition to the week that you already own), then I can understand why it may cost more like that. But if all it does is give you the right to convert your one existing deeded week to points each year for trading, then it seems like it's comparing that $13k to the Marriott $695 one time fee for enrolling an existing legacy week, which is quite a large difference.

The $13K is not comparable to the $695 at all based on additional responses that I am reading. It seems that the $13K is comparable to buying 1,000 DC points and getting enrollment in DC for free for other Marriott weeks that are owned. I don't know what 660 HPP points really get you. The MFs on 1,000 DC points is about $550 and 1,000 DC points would give you a 1BR unit in gold season in Orlando.

 

[dioxide45]

A clarification on HPP maintenance fees. The HRC MF will continue as always even if the owner uses the annual transfer option. The HPP MF will be based on the actual number of HPP points purchased, but will likely increase over time. For 660 HPP points the MF will be about $600 on top of the HRC MF.

Thank you for clarifying. This was getting very confusing. $1900 in MFs for 660 points seemed like a lot. Really the $1900 is a moving target because it is really whatever your MFs are for your underlying week plus the MF for the $600 MF for the 660 HPP points. So someone could have however fee or someone could have a higher fee. This is really no different than Marriott's DC trust points. You pay about $0.55 per point in MFs and then MFs for any weeks you own. Some people pay $2200 for a week in Hawaii while someone in Orlando only pays $1300.

 

[ocjohn]

To participate in the HPP you have to purchase 660 new points at $2/point = $13,200. Then you have the annual option to transfer your owned unit into the HPP. If it is a 2000 point unit, you then will have 2660 HPP points. The comparison to Marriott is $695 vs $13,200 for similar products. For the HPP, you pay a MF which today is about $1,900 per unit per year. IMHO, that number will increase next year.

you mean 660 new points at $20/point = $13,200, and ADD $600 in MF associated with the 660 points, or $1/point for maintenance. Right?

 

[Kal]

you mean 660 new points at $20/point = $13,200, and ADD $600 in MF associated with the 660 points...

Yes, that's it, just to play the HPP game.

 

[ocjohn]

Yes, that's it, just to play the HPP game.

so comparing to what we've already bought (all resale)

Property Acquisition Price/Point MF/Point

HKB $21 $1.16
HSL 6 0.71
HYI 5 0.86

HPP $20 $1

I can't see it. And, we got some LCUP points on our last acquisition, and were able to use them for a portfolio stay. I know LCUP's are 60 days out limited- but- if they continue this we'd have a shot at portfolio properties anyway?

 

[NWTRVLRS]

And remember that this 660 just buys you into the points program for the opportunity to decide at the beginning of each year if you want to place your deeded week(s) into the points program... there is a $133 fee, per contract, to do that.

 

[heathpack]

The $13K is not comparable to the $695 at all based on additional responses that I am reading. It seems that the $13K is comparable to buying 1,000 DC points and getting enrollment in DC for free for other Marriott weeks that are owned. I don't know what 660 HPP points really get you. The MFs on 1,000 DC points is about $550 and 1,000 DC points would give you a 1BR unit in gold season in Orlando.

As an easy example, inHRC, 660 points would get you a 3 night weekend in silver season in a 1BR. Silver season is the 4th level down (it goes Diamond, Plat, Gold, Silver, Bronze, Copper, Mountain).

But its a little more complicated than that. Not all resorts have all seasons, some don’t have silver or below. Some resorts have 1BR units that “cost” the 2BR price. You can book midweek 2 night or 4 night stays that cost less points. Some resorts have studios which are less points. Some resorts only have 2BR units.

For example 660 points might get you a silver 1BR unit but at Hyatt Highlands Inn, the 1BR units trade as 2BRs and there is no season lower than gold. So 660 points only gets you 2 midweek nights in a 1BR. At Hyatt Kaanapali, there is no season below Diamond, and the smallest unit is 1BR, your best use of 660 points there is a 4 night midweek stay. The only full weeks you could get with 660 points is a gold or lesser season studio.

But that’s all in HRC. To my knowledge, there is not a published HPP points chart. You just have to search the website and see what’s available and how many points that would cost you. I could be wrong on this (although I would not be wrong if Hyatt had chosen to give current owners info on how HPP works, I’d know the system if I’d ever have been given the info to understand it), maybe there is a chart and I haven’t seen it.

Bottom line, 660 points doesn’t get you much. Say you use 660 pts for 20 years, your cost is $650/yr purchase price (not including lost opportunity cost for that money) plus $600/yr MF (excluding MF increases which are of course going to happen), you are looking at $1250/yr cost for 660 pts. Pretty expensive.

 

[Kal]

Also in the HPP, there may be housekeeping fees for short week or daily stays. This would be additive to all the other costs associated with the $13,200 upfront price of the 660 points.

I sat through the HPP presentation and none of that was included in the pitch. Matter of fact they just stated $20 per point and never did the arithmetic to state the $13,200 figure.

 

[NWTRVLRS]

Yes in HPP there are housekeeping fees... and depending on how many points you own total in HPP (including contracts you may deposit at the begging of each year), you are at a ‘level’... I think there are 4 levels... with each level you get a specific amount of housekeeping fees each year... for the amount of points we own, we would have been at the level to have 2 housekeeping fees per year... but if you break up your vacation into smaller days of a few nights, you can quickly use up your allotment and have to pay housekeeping fees.

 

[ivywag]

As an easy example, inHRC, 660 points would get you a 3 night weekend in silver season in a 1BR. Silver season is the 4th level down (it goes Diamond, Plat, Gold, Silver, Bronze, Copper, Mountain).

But its a little more complicated than that. Not all resorts have all seasons, some don’t have silver or below. Some resorts have 1BR units that “cost” the 2BR price. You can book midweek 2 night or 4 night stays that cost less points. Some resorts have studios which are less points. Some resorts only have 2BR units.

For example 660 points might get you a silver 1BR unit but at Hyatt Highlands Inn, the 1BR units trade as 2BRs and there is no season lower than gold. So 660 points only gets you 2 midweek nights in a 1BR. At Hyatt Kaanapali, there is no season below Diamond, and the smallest unit is 1BR, your best use of 660 points there is a 4 night midweek stay. The only full weeks you could get with 660 points is a gold or lesser season studio.

But that’s all in HRC. To my knowledge, there is not a published HPP points chart. You just have to search the website and see what’s available and how many points that would cost you. I could be wrong on this (although I would not be wrong if Hyatt had chosen to give current owners info on how HPP works, I’d know the system if I’d ever have been given the info to understand it), maybe there is a chart and I haven’t seen it.

Bottom line, 660 points doesn’t get you much. Say you use 660 pts for 20 years, your cost is $650/yr purchase price (not including lost opportunity cost for that money) plus $600/yr MF (excluding MF increases which are of course going to happen), you are looking at $1250/yr cost for 660 pts. Pretty expensive.

There is an HPP points chart on the website. Go to "Vacation Planning Tools" then to "Member Resources." If you scroll down, you'll see it.

By the way, I'm not able to see ANY HPP inventory when searching all resorts. Is there something that I'm doing incorrectly or isn't there any HPP inventory available?