TUG MEMBERS: Joining TUG does not automatically register you as a user of the TUG Bulletin Board. You must register yourself.


*ads are disabled when logged in as a member*
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. The TUGBBS forums are completely free and open to the public and exist as the absolute best place for owners to get help and advice about their timeshares for more than 24 years!

    Join tens of thousands of other owners just like you here to get any and all Timeshare questions answered!
    Dismiss Notice
  3. TUG started 25 years ago in October 1993 as a group of regular Timeshare owners just like you!

    Check out our happy birthday post here: Happy Birthday TUG!
    Dismiss Notice
  4. TUG has now saved timeshare owners more than $10,000,000 dollars just by finding us in time to rescind a new Timeshare purchase! A truly incredible milestone!

    Read more here: TUG saves owners more than $10Million dollars
    Dismiss Notice
  5. Sign up to get the TUG Newsletter for free! Join tens of thousands of other owners who get this every week! Latest resort reviews and the most important topics discussed by owners during the week!
    Dismiss Notice
  6. TUG is trying out a new program that will trade you a TUG membership for a Timeshare resort review if you are an expired member, or even just a guest here on the forums!

    Read more here
    Dismiss Notice
  7. Our official "end my sales presentation early" T-shirts are available again! Also come with the option for a free membership extension with purchase to offset the cost!

    Read more Here
    Dismiss Notice
  8. Follow the TUG Member Banner as it travels the world on vacation with Timeshare owners! Also sign up to get the banner sent to you so you can submit a photo of your vacation with the banner to share with TUG! Banner Thread
    Dismiss Notice
  9. A few of the most common links here on the forums for newbies and guests!
    Dismiss Notice

maintenance fee increases Marriott vs Vistana

Discussion in 'Vistana Signature Experiences (formerly Starwood)' started by DannyTS, Nov 22, 2018.

  1. DannyTS

    DannyTS TUG Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2018
    Messages:
    943
    Likes Received:
    254
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I am looking at the Marriott forum, i see that many of the MF increases are around 5% . For now I do not own Marriott but can we expect in the future larger increases in the Vistana MF? This year they have been in the 1-3% range i think. I hope not!
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
  2. controller1

    controller1 TUG Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2017
    Messages:
    581
    Likes Received:
    243
    Trophy Points:
    103
    Location:
    Baton Rouge, LA
    Resorts Owned:
    Westin KORVN OF
    Westin Nanea OF
    Westin FLEX
    @DannyTS I hope not too but like you I've been following the Marriott forum and have also noticed their increases in MFs and it appears those increases are in line with previous year increases.

    It also appears from posts in other threads in the Marriott forum that MVC is not as reputable as Vistana. That also concerns me.
     
    Anne&Jim likes this.
  3. vacationtime1

    vacationtime1 TUG Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2006
    Messages:
    3,019
    Likes Received:
    551
    Trophy Points:
    348
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Resorts Owned:
    MAW & MKW (Kauai)
    WKORV-OF (Maui)
    WKV x3 (Scottsdale)
    I've noticed the same. I have the same concern.
     
    Anne&Jim likes this.
  4. echino

    echino TUG Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2008
    Messages:
    253
    Likes Received:
    85
    Trophy Points:
    239
    Location:
    Vancouver
    Resorts Owned:
    Hyatt Piñon Pointe,
    Harborside Resort at Atlantis
    Harborside fees are set to increase a lot.
     
  5. DannyTS

    DannyTS TUG Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2018
    Messages:
    943
    Likes Received:
    254
    Trophy Points:
    113
    is this specific to Bahamas (e.g. increase of taxes)?
     
  6. dioxide45

    dioxide45 TUG Review Crew: Veteran TUG Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2006
    Messages:
    26,299
    Likes Received:
    1,773
    Trophy Points:
    649
    Location:
    Ohio
    Resorts Owned:
    Marriott's Grande Vista
    Marriott's Harbour Lake
    SVV - Bella
    SVV - Key West
    I am concerned too. Our Sheraton Vistana Villages fees are only going up 1.07%. Last year there was actually a decrease. Our Grande Vista fees are up almost 4% this year with a similar increase last year.
     
    Anne&Jim likes this.
  7. CalGalTraveler

    CalGalTraveler TUG Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2014
    Messages:
    2,014
    Likes Received:
    928
    Trophy Points:
    173
    Location:
    California
    This is worrisome. Marriott may argue that this increase, which is faster than GDP and Consumer Price indices is because of healthcare and/or min wage increases. However we would expect to see the same at other industry players such as Vistana and Hilton which is not the case.

    To me this is a clear measurement of poor management at Marriott for failing to control costs. With their existing large size (and now the ILG acquisition), MVC should be lower than the industry average because of streamlined infrastructure savings and bulk purchasing discount power. It appears that MVC have been unable to execute.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
  8. TravelTime

    TravelTime TUG Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2018
    Messages:
    1,629
    Likes Received:
    743
    Trophy Points:
    163
    Resorts Owned:
    MVC, DVC, WKOVRN, FSA, MKO
    One thing you might want to compare is how much the total MF is before concluding the percentage increase is too much. My Vistana Maui MF is higher than some of the comparable Marriott MFs in Maui. You may want to not only look at percentage increases but also look at what are comparable branded properties (Marriott, Hyatt, Hilton) charging in the same location. Westin is known to have very high MFs in Hawaii, Harborside and St John and they are still raising fees in these locations by a lot this year.

    I heard the MF in VGV at WSJ is going up by a lot this year and they still need to pay separate property taxes of about $300 a unit plus $25 a day. Also Vistana charges a cleaning fee when using Star Options if you exceed more than 1-2 reservations depending on how many you are allocated with what you own, even if the reservation is just for one day!

    I know Tuggers do not like to compare to hotel prices but branded timeshares are hotels on steroids since you are staying in a resort but in a condo like unit. The company usually still has hotel rooms on site and you are sharing facilities with the hotel operations. The company is paying to maintain the hotel and the property. The company is usually even renting out the empty timeshare unit. So to me, it makes sense to take a look at how much hotel rooms and empty timeshare units are renting for to see if MFs are reasonable or too expensive.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
  9. DannyTS

    DannyTS TUG Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2018
    Messages:
    943
    Likes Received:
    254
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I hope that MVC does not take this approach and increase the MF where they can on the premise that comparable MF are higher. In the end the MF are supposedly based on costs at each resort and not based on the MF of the competition.

    But maybe they will decrease your Vistana fees to level the field with your MVC resorts! (tongue in cheek)
     
  10. TravelTime

    TravelTime TUG Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2018
    Messages:
    1,629
    Likes Received:
    743
    Trophy Points:
    163
    Resorts Owned:
    MVC, DVC, WKOVRN, FSA, MKO
    I added something to my post about costs. My comment was that comparable MFs are actually lower in many locations where Vistana has properties. Vistana is expensive, especially the Westin brand in Hawaii, Bahamas and USVI.

    Frankly, Marriott is a business so I hate to say this, but I hope they are thinking like a business and managing costs, competition, and customer satisfaction with shareholder profits.

    I mentioned this because you said Marriott is raising fees too much. Vistana actually has some of the most expensive timeshares in the industry. And they are still making huge increases on some of them. I heard more than 5% in some cases.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
  11. DannyTS

    DannyTS TUG Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2018
    Messages:
    943
    Likes Received:
    254
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I hope they are not trying to finance part of the ILG acquisition with our money. My concern is that we may see bigger changes in the Vistana fees in 2020.
     
  12. TravelTime

    TravelTime TUG Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2018
    Messages:
    1,629
    Likes Received:
    743
    Trophy Points:
    163
    Resorts Owned:
    MVC, DVC, WKOVRN, FSA, MKO
    If Marriott is run like a business, then they need to be competitive and they can’t raise fees above what the market will bear. So then there is nothing to worry about.

    The biggest risk right now is wage costs. Disney is raising MFs by a lot because they are in the process of raising the minimum wage to $15. Marriott employees are striking so you can assume MFs will rise to finance higher wages, not an acquisition.

    Several states already have passed the $15 minimum, which is a 50%+ increase, depending on the city or state.
     
  13. TravelTime

    TravelTime TUG Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2018
    Messages:
    1,629
    Likes Received:
    743
    Trophy Points:
    163
    Resorts Owned:
    MVC, DVC, WKOVRN, FSA, MKO
    Here’s a good one to compare since the location is comparable. Look at Westin and Marriott in Palm Desert area. The MFs at Westin Desert Willow and Westin Rancho Mirage are higher than Marriott Desert Springs I/II. Note I am using Redweek data so my number are off but in the general vicinity.

    So my point you can’t conclude Marriott is an evil “money grabbing” corporation and more evil than Vistana just because they have MF increases of 5% vs Vistana is in the 3% range this year when the MFs can be less for the same location in a comparable quality timeshare. (I am sure comparable quality can be debated.)

    If anything, I would argue that Marriott was the cheaper of the two companies.

    Disclosure: I own Marriott weeks and points and I own Vistana mandatory weeks.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
  14. controller1

    controller1 TUG Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2017
    Messages:
    581
    Likes Received:
    243
    Trophy Points:
    103
    Location:
    Baton Rouge, LA
    Resorts Owned:
    Westin KORVN OF
    Westin Nanea OF
    Westin FLEX
    There is more than comparability of location needed to get an apples-to-apples comparison upon which to base one's decision when comparing Marriott vs Vistana. This thread started with a very generalized observation of MF increases at Marriott appearing to be larger on a percentage increase basis than the increases (and even a decrease at Nanea) at Vistana. However, the last several posts have waded into more specificity than the generalized discussion.

    When making such comparisons there is so much to consider that I really doubt we will be able to make a truly informed decision other than the generalized "For the past several years Marriott's MFs have increased a larger percentage than those of Vistana."

    Things to consider (this list is not all-inclusive):
    1. Age of the resort. This impacts the embedded cost, including the cost of land and construction, and the cost of replacement reserves.
    2. Comparability of resort amenities such as food service, pools, etc.
    3. Comparability of landscaping, quality of unit furnishings, size on a per-unit basis.
    4. Utility infrastructure such as solar, co-generation, etc.
    As to the issue of "Marriott employees are striking so you can assume MFs will rise to finance higher wages", Marriott employees are not and were not striking. The striking employees were employees of Kyo-ya Hotels and Resorts. All of the properties where employees were/are striking are properties franchised to Kyo-ya Hotels and Resorts. Franchisees are responsible for setting their employee pay scales. I believe 100% of the timeshare properties of Marriott and Vistana are owned by MVC and are not franchised.
     
    TravelTime likes this.
  15. VacationForever

    VacationForever Tug Review Crew: Rookie TUG Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    8,107
    Likes Received:
    2,231
    Trophy Points:
    398
    Location:
    Somewhere Out There
    Just for the record, Desert Springs I MF, not counting the property tax, is $1,627.06 per week. Desert Willow's MF is $1473.28. Having said that, Desert Springs I villas are much larger and luxurious than Desert Willow or Mission Hills. Mission Hills' MF is higher by $100.

    Desert Springs II is very close to Desert Willow's MF.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
  16. TravelTime

    TravelTime TUG Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2018
    Messages:
    1,629
    Likes Received:
    743
    Trophy Points:
    163
    Resorts Owned:
    MVC, DVC, WKOVRN, FSA, MKO
    I totally agree with many of your points. I feel this thread started way too general and I delved into a specific example that I felt “might” be more comparable (although someone just pointed out the Redweek data is off by more than reported). It is almost impossible to find and apples to apples comparison. For example, there are no other branded resort timeshares on St John or Harborside so how do we determine that they are overpriced?

    Regarding my comments on the strike, I was not aware of who they are employed by. Regardless, if wages increase for contracted labor on the hotel side or timeshare side, other employees will expect higher wages and there will be a ripple effect. Disney is increasing MFs by approx 10% on average in 2019 mainly due to the higher minimum wage they are implementing. The $15 minimum wage has become law in NY and California and will likely follow, if not $15, it will go up at least in other regions. So MFs will follow to cover labor costs. Real estate costs have been going up too. Inflation has been escalating, which is why interest rates are increasing. Prices needs to go up to cover increased costs.

    It is ironic that we applaud supporting the poor and middle class, yet we complain about prices and taxes going up. To me, they are one and the same.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
  17. TravelTime

    TravelTime TUG Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2018
    Messages:
    1,629
    Likes Received:
    743
    Trophy Points:
    163
    Resorts Owned:
    MVC, DVC, WKOVRN, FSA, MKO
    Thank you for correcting the data.

    For both resorts, that is not what is reported on Redweek. Why are they reporting inaccurately? Sometimes people include club fees in some MFs which skews data or they might be including the JW Marriott fee?

    This goes back to controller1’s point that we can’t compare apples to apples, but I tried. I still think saying that a 5% increase makes Marriott a villain is too broad and generalized. As you said, Marriott Desert Springs I is more spacious and luxurious and still comes out $100 cheaper.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
  18. VacationForever

    VacationForever Tug Review Crew: Rookie TUG Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    8,107
    Likes Received:
    2,231
    Trophy Points:
    398
    Location:
    Somewhere Out There
    If it is reported in Redweek, it is wrong. As you may already know, people or resellers often have no clue. You need to look at the Marriott and Westin MF threads on TUG. We own several weeks and straight from the horse's mouth...
     
  19. TravelTime

    TravelTime TUG Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2018
    Messages:
    1,629
    Likes Received:
    743
    Trophy Points:
    163
    Resorts Owned:
    MVC, DVC, WKOVRN, FSA, MKO
    Here is the link: https://www.redweek.com/resort/P5894-westin-desert-willow/timeshare-resales

    Many brokers reported the same MFs. It makes no sense that they would report MFs that are $400 higher than actual MFs. That is not to their advantage in trying to sell.

    I was almost not going to put any numbers into my post because I did not trust Redweek data. Whenever I put numbers in, they are always wrong. I am going to go back and delete the numbers but keep the main point. I learned my lesson - no more Redweek data!
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
  20. VacationForever

    VacationForever Tug Review Crew: Rookie TUG Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    8,107
    Likes Received:
    2,231
    Trophy Points:
    398
    Location:
    Somewhere Out There
    The issue with alot of these ads, is the inconsistency as to whether SVN fee and property taxes are added in. With Desert Springs I, after adding in property tax, now it is up to $1725. If someone has an enrolled week and gets confuse, the seller will add another $205, now the number is $1930. So with MF, the true cost should be MF + property tax because in most states property tax is part of the MF bill. California is the anomality. We report MF, without property tax, for California timeshare because property tax can also vary depending on your acquisition price and possibly season, but through time they will be pretty close as the county adjusts MF across the board.
     
  21. TravelTime

    TravelTime TUG Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2018
    Messages:
    1,629
    Likes Received:
    743
    Trophy Points:
    163
    Resorts Owned:
    MVC, DVC, WKOVRN, FSA, MKO
    I would assume then all the California timeshares are adding in property taxes in addition to MFs? Is that correct? I own CA time shares but I can’t keep track anymore and sometimes DH pays the bills. We are not the most price sensitive people. My DH is super easy going and he rounds up to the nearest 3 digits so a couple hundred dollars does not register. And with big items, he has been known to round up to 5 digits. Scary.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
  22. VacationForever

    VacationForever Tug Review Crew: Rookie TUG Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    8,107
    Likes Received:
    2,231
    Trophy Points:
    398
    Location:
    Somewhere Out There
    No. On TUG, all MF for CA Vistana and Marriott timeshare that are reported exclude property taxes.

    You own at Four Seasons Aviara. You get a separate property tax through the county sometime in October. We get ours from Riverside County.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
  23. DannyTS

    DannyTS TUG Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2018
    Messages:
    943
    Likes Received:
    254
    Trophy Points:
    113
    let me be a bit suspicious of how they calculate the maintenance fees increases since we know very little about what goes in every line of the resort budget. I am comparing Lagunamar 2019 vs 2018. The largest increase is in "resort operations", a whopping 18% or 1.1 million dollars. The increase alone is more than 5% of the total budget. This is very surprising especially since the Mexican peso has been week. To mitigate the overall increase, the resort just lowered the reserve fee revenue from 4.1 to 3.8 millions.

    The internet access fee continues to amaze me, almost 1000 dollars per condo per year. I am no specialist in hotel internet costs but it seems quite a bit to me!

    upload_2018-11-23_19-27-31.png
     
  24. TravelTime

    TravelTime TUG Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2018
    Messages:
    1,629
    Likes Received:
    743
    Trophy Points:
    163
    Resorts Owned:
    MVC, DVC, WKOVRN, FSA, MKO
    Sorry, my question was do all California timeshares charge property taxes separately from MFs?

    Yes we own FSA and Grand Cal. We get separate property tax bills for other timeshares too. It is hard to keep track of all these small bills. They come at all different times and they are for small amounts.
     
  25. TravelTime

    TravelTime TUG Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2018
    Messages:
    1,629
    Likes Received:
    743
    Trophy Points:
    163
    Resorts Owned:
    MVC, DVC, WKOVRN, FSA, MKO
    I am not sure why you are analyzing the line items. What will you do with this information?
     

Share This Page