• The TUGBBS forums are completely free and open to the public and exist as the absolute best place for owners to get help and advice about their timeshares for more than 30 years!

    Join Tens of Thousands of other Owners just like you here to get any and all Timeshare questions answered 24 hours a day!
  • TUG started 30 years ago in October 1993 as a group of regular Timeshare owners just like you!

    Read about our 30th anniversary: Happy 30th Birthday TUG!
  • TUG has a YouTube Channel to produce weekly short informative videos on popular Timeshare topics!

    Free memberships for every 50 subscribers!

    Visit TUG on Youtube!
  • TUG has now saved timeshare owners more than $21,000,000 dollars just by finding us in time to rescind a new Timeshare purchase! A truly incredible milestone!

    Read more here: TUG saves owners more than $21 Million dollars
  • Sign up to get the TUG Newsletter for free!

    60,000+ subscribing owners! A weekly recap of the best Timeshare resort reviews and the most popular topics discussed by owners!
  • Our official "end my sales presentation early" T-shirts are available again! Also come with the option for a free membership extension with purchase to offset the cost!

    All T-shirt options here!
  • A few of the most common links here on the forums for newbies and guests!

Just Released IOA Survey Followup

Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
151
Reaction score
13
Points
28
Resorts Owned
Kauai Beach Villas, Samoset Resort (in ME), The Harborside Inn (Edgartown, Martha's Vineyard, MA)
Wha? THE Official KBV Owners Forum? :ponder: Okay, well I'll quibble with that one, Jack. ;)

I still invite any KBV owners not aware of the Yahoo group to be part of that as well. You can subscribe by sending an email to
kbvowners-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Anyway, Aloha All!

I just got and filled out the KBV survey followup.

The first part, including the request to prioritize the upgrades in terms of owner preference, gave my wife and I pause for thought. I say that positively, because we may need to pick and choose. For the most part, the model of the upgrades was really impressive, but we may not be able to afford everything, although the units certainly need an facelift.

The 2nd part, about what to do with the non-used deeds, poses questions that are much more complex than can be answered with simple yes or nos, even with the box for adding thoughts.

1) Would I be willing to have a vacation or timeshare company take on many currently unowned deeds if they guaranteed to pay the maintenance fees? That sounds good on the surface, as that would be income into the IOA and other board's coffers. But if we don't do it right, we'd end up with another Wyndham situation where you'd have two corporate interests having a vast majority of voting power. You'd have a further reduction in potential voting power for individual owners. And for further thoughts, see #3 below.

2) How much would I pay to keep another corporate company from owning a block of the deeds? Gee, the list of options is sort of funny money. $10? $50? $300? In the context of approaching $1600/2BR maintenance fees for the week, $50 may not be the biggest deal. But we already pay a relative lot of money, although Hawaii is expensive, and comparing what we get to equivalent suites at hotels, we still get a good deal. But I have no reference with the options. $10? $50? $100? Gee, I'd prefer to choose $10. But again, I have no reference, so that question doesn't mean a lot to me.


3? Would I be willing to consolidate unit deeds into single apartments so that they can be sold to full-time owners? At first glance, again, this might sound like a good idea. But this is a more complex question than can just be answered by the survey. If you consolidate apartments and remove them from our market, then the number of potential individual owners is reduced, and total number of units available to be used by owners is reduced. The result would be more difficulty in reserving a week, as well as limiting the number of individual owners who can potentially vote down the road. Right now, with Wyndham owning over 20% of the deeds, that gives them massive voting power. IF we were full at capacity with individual owners right now, we'd actually potentially be able to outvote Wyndham. If you were to reduce the number of potential individual owners, you may permanently give Wyndham a great power advantage. It's like the desired result of gerrymandering districts in a state in order to keep the other side from getting elected. In the 2016 election, factually far more voted for Democrats across the board in Federal congressional elections than for Republicans, yet Republicans won more seats and won the office of the president. You can have that sort of result with gerrymandering. With our case, you have one entity, Wyndham, that has such an overwhelming advantage in voting, it makes it difficult for individual owners to make the massive difference they should be able to make. So I'd personally be for legislating that no corporate entity can serve on a board, and that no owner can have more than a certain amount of voting power. For example, if no owner could vote more than three deeds worth of votes, it would keep any individual, including a corporation, from having more than 6 votes. It would make things more equitable for all.

So these questions pose some things that sounds like a good idea, but they're not necessarily good ones in the long run. They need further discussion, and not answered by generally yay or nay responses.

Jeff
 
Last edited:
Joined
Apr 22, 2017
Messages
3
Reaction score
1
Points
13
Location
Olympia, WA
Resorts Owned
KBV, Hilton
Wha? THE Official KBV Owners Forum? :ponder: Okay, well I'll quibble with that one, Jack. ;)

I still invite any KBV owners not aware of the Yahoo group to be part of that as well. You can subscribe by sending an email to
kbvowners-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Anyway, Aloha All!

I just got and filled out the KBV survey followup.

The first part, including the request to prioritize the upgrades in terms of owner preference, gave my wife and I pause for thought. I say that positively, because we may need to pick and choose. For the most part, the model of the upgrades was really impressive, but we may not be able to afford everything, although the units certainly need an facelift.

The 2nd part, about what to do with the non-used deeds, poses questions that are much more complex than can be answered with simple yes or nos, even with the box for adding thoughts.

1) Would I be willing to have a vacation or timeshare company take on many currently unowned deeds if they guaranteed to pay the maintenance fees? That sounds good on the surface, as that would be income into the IOA and other board's coffers. But if we don't do it right, we'd end up with another Wyndham situation where you'd have two corporate interests having a vast majority of voting power. You'd have a further reduction in potential voting power for individual owners. And for further thoughts, see #3 below.

2) How much would I pay to keep another corporate company from owning a block of the deeds? Gee, the list of options is sort of funny money. $10? $50? $300? In the context of approaching $1600/2BR maintenance fees for the week, $50 may not be the biggest deal. But we already pay a relative lot of money, although Hawaii is expensive, and comparing what we get to equivalent suites at hotels, we still get a good deal. But I have no reference with the options. $10? $50? $100? Gee, I'd prefer to choose $10. But again, I have no reference, so that question doesn't mean a lot to me.


3? Would I be willing to consolidate unit deeds into single apartments so that they can be sold to full-time owners? At first glance, again, this might sound like a good idea. But this is a more complex question than can just be answered by the survey. If you consolidate apartments and remove them from our market, then the number of potential individual owners is reduced, and total number of units available to be used by owners is reduced. The result would be more difficulty in reserving a week, as well as limiting the number of individual owners who can potentially vote down the road. Right now, with Wyndham owning over 20% of the deeds, that gives them massive voting power. IF we were full at capacity with individual owners right now, we'd actually potentially be able to outvote Wyndham. If you were to reduce the number of potential individual owners, you may permanently give Wyndham a great power advantage. It's like the desired result of gerrymandering districts in a state in order to keep the other side from getting elected. In the 2016 election, factually far more voted for Democrats across the board in Federal congressional elections than for Republicans, yet Republicans won more seats and won the office of the president. You can have that sort of result with gerrymandering. With our case, you have one entity, Wyndham, that has such an overwhelming advantage in voting, it makes it difficult for individual owners to make the massive difference they should be able to make. So I'd personally be for legislating that no corporate entity can serve on a board, and that no owner can have more than a certain amount of voting power. For example, if no owner could vote more than three deeds worth of votes, it would keep any individual, including a corporation, from having more than 6 votes. It would make things more equitable for all.

So these questions pose some things that sounds like a good idea, but they're not necessarily good ones in the long run. They need further discussion, and not answered by generally yay or nay responses.

Jeff

Jeff, I'll bite on just one part of your post. Why should an owner that has one every other year week have more voting power than, let's say, a 5 week every year owner. Why is that 5 week owner marginalized? I agree that Wydham has itself positioned very well with two board members, I don't think that any corporation would buy in, if not allowed at least one BOD member. Get the current BOD to re-write the rules, limit any corporate entity from having more than one BOD representative. I will have more to comment on your post when I get to KBV in January.
 
Joined
May 3, 2017
Messages
151
Reaction score
13
Points
28
Resorts Owned
Kauai Beach Villas, Samoset Resort (in ME), The Harborside Inn (Edgartown, Martha's Vineyard, MA)
Jeff, I'll bite on just one part of your post. Why should an owner that has one every other year week have more voting power than, let's say, a 5 week every year owner. Why is that 5 week owner marginalized? I agree that Wydham has itself positioned very well with two board members, I don't think that any corporation would buy in, if not allowed at least one BOD member. Get the current BOD to re-write the rules, limit any corporate entity from having more than one BOD representative. I will have more to comment on your post when I get to KBV in January.

There are many timeshare boards that have eliminated corporate entities from the board. It's becoming more commonplace.

And I'm not saying a one week every other year would have MORE voting power than a five week every year owner. I'm saying that an every other year owner doesn't necessarily have any less concern over what goes on here when they're here (and when they're not) than someone who owns 5 weeks. Anyone who has invested their money in a week, and continues to pay maintenance fees would want to know the state of the resort, know that it's well run, and that they're going to get great bang for their buck when they're here. I don't think that someone who owns five weeks has more interest in the resort being a good bang for the buck and allowing a really good experience than someone who owns one week. It's sort of a diminishing returns. Someone who owns 10 weeks doesn't necessarily feel MORE strongly about the condition of the swimming pool than the person who comes here for one week per year. And the person here for 10 weeks doesn't necessarily feel twice as strongly as someone who has five weeks.

In one frame, you'd think you'd owe the person who owns 10 weeks twice the voting power than the person who owns five weeks. But we now have an entity who owns TWO-THOUSAND, TWO-HUNDRED (or so) weeks. That has totally upended the voting system, totally upending the design, the intention of individual owners having a meaningful say in how their place is run.

So I'm suggesting, just something that came into my head yesterday to consider, to mull over, that if we limited any one individual's or entity's power to (just throwing out a number) five weeks (it could be ten weeks), we will make voting more equitable and allow more voting power, more say, to the individual owners. I'm trying to think outside the box. But right now, all of 2200 deeds/weeks owned by Wyndham has greatly distorted the system. If I understand correctly, Charles, you own ten weeks (or thereabouts). I'd much rather entrust you to have similar concerns as someone who owns 2 weeks, with some small differences (e.g., How much money to devote to the upgrade.). And owning ten weeks is more than many own. Short of being a year-round, full-time owner, that's pretty substantial. You're potentially here almost 1/5th of the time. But you can't compete with twenty-two hundred weeks of power. I mean, it's like playing the game Monopoly (first distributed and manufactured by Parker Brothers of Salem, MA, by the way). For most of the game, everyone playing has a fighting chance. But once one person essentially owns every property and has put hotels on them, the game is over. By limiting voting power (so that owning a number of deeds beyond, say, 10), you make it that the only reason to own twenty weeks or thirty weeks is that you want to enjoy them. But it doesn't give you a grotesquely unbalanced say in what goes on.

Jeff
 

magmue

TUG Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2017
Messages
535
Reaction score
393
Points
173
Location
Northwest of Normal
Resorts Owned
HGVC: Kingsland
West 57th
Worldmark
Whale Pointe fractional
Point at Poipu (deed)
Lawai Beach Resort
Kauai Beach Villas
I'm a new KBV owner, so didn't get the survey. I won't get to KBV for the first time until early 2020, but have been following the various threads here on TUG over the last year or so with great interest.

I will register with the Yahoo group, but am hoping the "public square" here on TUG becomes more active over time.

I wanted to offer a comment about question #3 on the survey referenced above: "Would I be willing to consolidate unit deeds into single apartments so that they can be sold to full-time owners?" IIRC, the newest budget has the IOA subsidizing the full-time unit owners to pay user fees for the nicer pool system that is part of the resort next door? If the ratio of FT users and TS users shifts, I hope that will be reevaluated - otherwise, over time, the TS owners would be shouldering an increasing burden.
 

DeniseM

Moderator
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
57,668
Reaction score
9,088
Points
1,849
Resorts Owned
WKORV, WKV, 2-SDO, 4-Kauai Beach Villas, Island Park Village (Yellowstone), Hyatt High Sierra, Dolphin's Cove (Anaheim)
Hi Maggie - I am no expert on this issue, but according to the January news letter, the resort fee that they are implementing and will be charged to renters and exchangers (not owners or owner's guests) will cover the majority of the cost:

Hotel pool is NOW OPEN! If there was one question we received the most from our owners over the last several years it was “Why can’t we use the hotel pool anymore?” Well, your board heard you loud and clear and effective October 15th all arriving guests were provided with wristbands to access the hotel pool (up to six bands are provided depending on the unit size and number of registered guests). The annual impact to maintenance fees would have been about 3% to provide this amenity, but the implementation of the Resort Service Fee of $20/day for newly arranged rentals and exchanges will recover the majority of this impact once it phases in. KBV Owners and Club Wyndham based reservations will not be charged the fee; if a KBV Owner rents their week, it is considered the Owners’ use week and the fee will be not be charged. With the financial support of the fees we’re paying for pool use, the hotel has been able to move ahead with upgrading the pool facilities. Towels are not being provided at the hotel pool, so timeshare owners and guests will need to bring along the pool towels stocked in the unit. Please note, the Fitness Center and other hotel activities are not part of the pool use program.

***I just emailed the entire newsletter to you.
 
Last edited:

bianchicycle

Guest
Joined
Apr 2, 2018
Messages
66
Reaction score
16
Points
68
Resorts Owned
Kauai Beach Villas
I have and am on the Yahoo group and also here and I have not met either Jeff or Jack but... Jeff, I am tired of you making it a Jeff vs Jack thing. You are not an attorney so your opinions are personally yours and not that of a list owner’s.

We are all here to make things better at KBV, which it seems to me, is getting better. Keep it civil and it “your” personal opinion. Also..... keep it short so you don’t over whelm your readers..

Tom
 

jacknsara

KBV Forum Moderator
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2005
Messages
1,034
Reaction score
305
Points
444
Location
Mercer Island WA
Resorts Owned
Pahio Kauai Beach Villas, Pahio Shearwater
. . . I wanted to offer a comment about question #3 on the survey referenced above: "Would I be willing to consolidate unit deeds into single apartments so that they can be sold to full-time owners?" IIRC, the newest budget has the IOA subsidizing the full-time unit owners to pay user fees for the nicer pool system that is part of the resort next door? If the ratio of FT users and TS users shifts, I hope that will be reevaluated - otherwise, over time, the TS owners would be shouldering an increasing burden.

Aloha Maggie,
Board minutes are posted in the resort manager maintained website www.kauaibeachvillasresort.com I am pasting in an extract from board minutes cited in a post in an older thread https://www.tugbbs.com/forums/index...as-board-election.240675/page-10#post-2189385
. . . From the minutes: commencing January 1, 2019, in the amount of $23.34 per interval to subsidize the Pool Licensing Agreement between KBV AOAO and Kauai Beach Resort Association of Apartment Owners (KBR AOAO),
The ratio concern you mention is already addressed by the per interval nature of the authorization.
Jack
p.s. the Ownership Transitions Committee meets monthly and is working on, among other things, how to share some of the survey results. I hope to share the first release in this forum before the end of February.
 

jacknsara

KBV Forum Moderator
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2005
Messages
1,034
Reaction score
305
Points
444
Location
Mercer Island WA
Resorts Owned
Pahio Kauai Beach Villas, Pahio Shearwater
. . . The annual impact to maintenance fees would have been about 3% to provide this amenity, but the implementation of the Resort Service Fee of $20/day for newly arranged rentals and exchanges will recover the majority of this impact once it phases in. . . .
Aloha,
Note the phrase in the snippet above: “once it phases in.” It can take many many months to fully phase in. Many Tuggers disapprove of resort fees. I posted my view in a couple of places in the following thread:
Timeshare Resort Fees Are you ok with them?
Timeshare Resort Fees Are you ok with them?
Jack
 
Top