[ 2018 ] Is your dog really a service animal?

[Retiresoon]

Don’t believe this info is true according to this—
http://www.wla.org/assets/WALE/2015WALEConference/Service Animals and the Washington Law Against Discrimination.pdf

Interesting. I wonder why the store clerks tell me that. Possibly it is a store policy. They all specifically tell me they cannot ask questions when a dog is in the store.

 

[Patri]

I saw a large dog in our hardware store. The clerk rolled her eyes. She didn't like it, but felt they had no power to tell the customer to get it out of there.

 

[bbodb1]

So if I bring my pet lion into a store where you are and you get frightened by it, that's your problem, not mine?
Kurt

Really? I don't recall lions ever being domesticated but leaving that aside for now.....

You seem to think having a fear of dogs is not rational. But dogs are animals, and can (and do!) cause injury to humans. As a person who had previously been injured by a dog, I find it perfectly rational for that person to be scared and react to an untrained dog (i.e. non-service dog) running around in a store where one doesn't expect them to be.

But that's just me...

Kurt

People can (and do) have fears with respect to many things but it is not reasonable for the world to kowtow to every person's fears now is it? And, there is a quite a difference between a dog running around in a store (which sounds like the dog is loose) versus a dog on a leash.

 

[wilma]

Interesting. I wonder why the store clerks tell me that. Possibly it is a store policy. They all specifically tell me they cannot ask questions when a dog is in the store.

Because we are now in a new era of people using "alternative facts" to bolster their anti-government rhetoric.....

 

[tschwa2]

Interesting. I wonder why the store clerks tell me that. Possibly it is a store policy. They all specifically tell me they cannot ask questions when a dog is in the store.

There are only two questions you can ask- (1) Is the service animal required because of a disability? ___Yes___No
(2) What work or task has the dog been trained to perform?

If the sales person asked the wrong question or asks it incorrectly the store can be open to legal actions. In the store where I work we are told to ignore the animals and report the customer to a manager if the animal is causing problems. It is up to the manager to do something and generally won't unless there is some obvious problem and again his hands are tied to asking the two questions and only if number one is answered with a no or number two is not answered can he do anything in most cases unless the animal is attacking someone or making a mess.

In general a store clerk is also not to confront anyone they suspect of stealing- they should report it to a manager or asset protection employee. The hassle of dealing with those situations beyond reporting them are above the pay grade of the normal store clerk. Management on the other hand should but usually doesn't bother when it comes to non service animal pets in the store.

 

[taterhed]

A few points:

II. Service Animal Defined by Title II and Title III of the ADA

A service animal means any dog that is individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a disability, including a physical, sensory, psychiatric, intellectual, or other mental disability. Tasks performed can include, among other things, pulling a wheelchair, retrieving dropped items, alerting a person to a sound, reminding a person to take medication, or pressing an elevator button.

Emotional support animals, comfort animals, and therapy dogs are not service animals under Title II and Title III of the ADA. Other species of animals, whether wild or domestic, trained or untrained, are not considered service animals either. The work or tasks performed by a service animal must be directly related to the individual’s disability. It does not matter if a person has a note from a doctor that states that the person has a disability and needs to have the animal for emotional support. A doctor’s letter does not turn an animal into a service animal.

Ed: I'll point out that the ADA definition specifically addresses PTSD, "....calming a person with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) during an anxiety attack...."

ADA protections apply to SERVICE animals. (see ADA citation below)
ACAA protections apply to service animals (with the ADA) but also apply to emotional support animals (ESA).
FHA and ADA rules apply to housing
EEOC enforces the ADA and applies to the workplace and accommodation.
IDEA and the ADA apply to educational situations: schools, universities etc...


The Air Carrier Access Act (ACAA) requires airlines to allow service animals and emotional support animals to accompany their handlers in the cabin of the aircraft.
The rules differ for SA's and ESA's and are expanded in the citation below.

An interesting discussion: Are timeshares residential housing occupied by 'owners' or are they public accommodation? The application of the laws (ADA) applying to service animals in public facilities and accommodations may be quite different from those laws that apply to housing and reasonable accommodations (FHA).


If you're really interested and/or feel 'mad' or 'angry' or 'frightened' or "curious" etc... perhaps you should read some of the material and gain a better understanding.
Point of fact: the Federal Gov. has (and is) trying to revise the training/certification/documentation requirements for service animals, but has been unsuccessful to date. Many states (20?) are attempting to crack-down on 'fake' service animals with legislation and enforcement, but the efforts are complicated and often blocked by the current vague and overriding Federal law

As I've said before: Genuine service animals are not the problem. It's the people on the "it's all about me" program with their 'eBay' jackets and internet letters that are causing the problems. Further, I mean no insult to the folks who have a genuine necessity for an ESA, but I highlight the difficulty in drawing a definitive and legal line between "need vs want" and "nice vs necessary."

https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm
https://adata.org/publication/service-animals-booklet

All IMO, of course....

 

[theo]

Because we are now in a new era of people using "alternative facts" to bolster their anti-government rhetoric.....

I'm not going to take this conversation in a prohibited political direction and get my typing hand slapped.
I will merely state that this new era of "alternative facts" is certainly not confined to anti-government rhetoric.
Indeed, the notion of "alternative facts" can be found (and may even have its' origins) within "government".

The first time I ever heard the phrase "alternative facts"was when it was publicly uttered by a woman by the name of Kellyanne Conway, while defending an absurdly exaggerated estimate of attendance at a public event in Washington D.C. in January, 2017. Make of that observation (and make of that particular person's affiliations) whatever you will.

 

[mdurette]

"Can't be left unattended in room." I can't imagine wanting to travel that way with a pet. MAYBE stopping one night on the way to somewhere, but otherwise, no.
.

Yes...this! I love my pets, but seriously....why the heck would I want to be with them 24/7 on vacation since they are not suppose to be left in the room on their own. It would really prohibit what I would do.

 

[tschwa2]

A few points:

II. Service Animal Defined by Title II and Title III of the ADA

A service animal means any dog that is individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a disability, including a physical, sensory, psychiatric, intellectual, or other mental disability. Tasks performed can include, among other things, pulling a wheelchair, retrieving dropped items, alerting a person to a sound, reminding a person to take medication, or pressing an elevator button.

Miniature Horses also qualify under ADA guidelines.

 

[geekette]

But a service dog that is trained is likely to know when the owner is in emotional distress and come over to give comfort. Any other dog “might be” or might not be smart enough to realize it. Yes, that dog gives the owner comfort by just having the company but that is not a service dog.

Yeah, my dog is a therapy dog for me but is not a trained therapy dog. I don't attempt to pass her off as anything but my pooch and we don't sneak in where we aren't wanted.

 

[geekette]

People can (and do) have fears with respect to many things but it is not reasonable for the world to kowtow to every person's fears now is it? And, there is a quite a difference between a dog running around in a store (which sounds like the dog is loose) versus a dog on a leash.

Yes, there is not likely to be a pack of dogs hunting people in Home Depot. I guess people that don't have dogs don't realize that they are not always running. Fluffums has in fact not run today at all and is currently snoozing at my feet.

I do demand that all stores prohibit spiders of all kinds, tho, because I am terrified of them.

 

[easyrider]

My dog Rex is the offspring of service dogs. He is a hypoallergenic non-shedding Labradoodle. This dog has the instinct to be a great service dog. I thought about taking him to the PAWS training center but decided it was too far away. I really wasn't ever going to take him anywhere it would matter anyway. He can get the remote control, shoes and things I point at most of the time. He only eats out of his bowl. He walks on my right side, heels on command and heels when we get to a curb or obstacle. Rarely barks. Is tolerant of other animals and people. Watches TV. He likes the dog whisper but watches other shows.

He will growl at cats but doesn't chase them unless he is in the back yard. When he finally cornered a cat he sat down and watched it walk away.

He actually woke me up twice because I wasn't breathing and was having a heart attack. Very often when I wake up he is staring at me. He isn't a service dog but it wouldn't be difficult for him to become one.

Anyway, my point is that you really never know about someones pet and should probably be tolerant. I haven't really noticed a big problem with the service dog scam and we travel quite a bit. I'm certain it happens but I haven't had to deal with a barking dog in any of my timeshares or at any of the hotels we visit. I just personally don't see a big problem.

Bill

 

[taterhed]

Miniature Horses also qualify under ADA guidelines.

Yes, you're quite right. That was the 2011 amended version, and it is cited in the attached ADA sheet. I didn't bring it up because it detracts from the discussion and raises the inevitable questions about a vast zoological cornucopia of possible service-therapy-support-makesomethingup animals that people have read about/seen/heard or are urban legend. (the flying pig)

To answer the question that someone will ask soon, "why miniature horses," the answer is longevity, sturdiness and cases where canines are not appropriate.

Miniature Horses
In addition to the provisions about service dogs, the Department’s revised ADA regulations have a new, separate provision about miniature horses that have been individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities. (Miniature horses generally range in height from 24 inches to 34 inches measured to the shoulders and generally weigh between 70 and 100 pounds.) Entities covered by the ADA must modify their policies to permit miniature horses where reasonable. The regulations set out four assessment factors to assist entities in determining whether miniature horses can be accommodated in their facility. The assessment factors are (1) whether the miniature horse is housebroken; (2) whether the miniature horse is under the owner’s control; (3) whether the facility can accommodate the miniature horse’s type, size, and weight; and (4) whether the miniature horse’s presence will not compromise legitimate safety requirements necessary for safe operation of the facility.

 

[clifffaith]

I do demand that all stores prohibit spiders of all kinds, tho, because I am terrified of them.

Local L.A. News had a snip a few minutes ago with a home that had partially burned because the occupant tried to kill a spider with a blow torch. While we were thinking "good God man, your slipper would have sufficed!" they showed a picture of a wolf spider that looked at least as big as a large tarantula. Seems the spider then ran burning through the house. $10K in damages.

 

[cgeidl]

In San Francisco I have seen several confrontations of service dogs being on public transportation and having tags. And two instances passengers accused the person of getting them from the Internet and that the dogs were not service dogs. Hard to say one way or another but it seems to me that the emotional support dog issue is almost impossible to deal with as many service Veterans need dogs to assist them with their emotional being. In San Francisco there are more handicap tags then total public parking places. I see people jogging to and from their cars where will you live with handicapped tag is hanging in the window. I sometime asked him what their handicap is in generally they appear quite angry to be questioned.

 

[chellej]

I was at Portland airport yesterday waiting for a flight and heard a dog barking nearby. There was a lady at the restaurant that had high bar tables and she had her little dog in a carrier on the table. I just kept thinking I wouldn't want to be seated at that table even after they wiped it down...I just don't understand what people think.

 

[Nancy]

I was on a flight where a passenger had her dog eating off the uncovered tray table.

 

[jme]

Nancy said: "I was on a flight where a passenger had her dog eating off the uncovered tray table".

and.....

I was at Portland airport yesterday waiting for a flight and heard a dog barking nearby. There was a lady at the restaurant that had high bar tables and she had her little dog in a carrier on the table. I just kept thinking I wouldn't want to be seated at that table even after they wiped it down...I just don't understand what people think.

Again, there's a word for it........total unabated selfishness.

 

[WinniWoman]

And then there are those people who sneak their little dogs into timeshare units where they are not allowed. (I have even witnessed one family that kept their dog in the car each night during their stay)

A Smuggs owner just posted last night on our Facebook page that she saw that some people snuck their dogs into the condos. She did not report it because she felt on vacation she didn't want to have to deal with it. I assume this is the case for a lot of people at timeshares and I get it. You want to unwind and so forth.

However-Everyone thinks someone else will say something and it will be dealt with. We have to stand up when we see something going on that is against the rules at our resorts, Me- I would be taking pictures,getting license plate numbers, calling the front desk, posting on Facebook and emailing the HOA.

Believe me I have done this with other issues. In this day and age most people have cell phones in hand and it's very easy and takes no time at all.

 

[Gaozhen]

While I agree that the system is abused, I'm kind of surprised at the level of anger / intolerance / understanding in here. I would never pretend my dogs are a service animals, but having family and friends whose children have autism and similar disabilities, there is definitely a need for real emotional service animals that DON'T have to do full-on service tasks.

Have you had to stay home from work because your autistic child goes into a rage, gets terrified of the world, or shuts down? Or do you know anyone with PTSD has terrors and flashbacks? For many people, emotional service animals are the only way to function, and a lot of these comments seem to dismiss that. Just because someone or someone's family member suffers a disability doesn't mean they should go on vacation, or won't ever have to get on a plane.

Yeah there are abuses, but some people really need them and a carte blanche prohibition will hurt people. Just a reminder to put yourselves in others' shoes.

 

[clifffaith]

Our personal experience with an emotional support/companion animal took place in our own back yard. We had the tenant from hell in our guest house in 2012 and were basically prisoners in our own home for the last three months of her tenancy. Three weeks before she left, in spite of "relocation funds" to the tune of $18,650 already being in escrow waiting for her to get her ass off our property, she shows up with a pit bull, someone from some tenants' rights group and a dog handler. We of course tell her to get that dog out of our backyard. Well it was her "companion animal". Called the police who of course put us way down on the issue of things needing handling that day, and then happened to call a friend of a friend who was a lawyer and luckily answered the phone that Sunday afternoon. She tells us go out there NOW and tell her she can have that dog. We did and dog was gone 10 minutes later never to be seen again. Just one more way that rhymes-with-witch was terrorizing us in our own home.

 

[Sandy VDH]

Yeah there are abuses, but some people really need them and a carte blanche prohibition will hurt people. Just a reminder to put yourselves in others' shoes.

Real PTSD service dogs are not just random pets. They are trained animals. Any real service animal is trained, if they can't be trained to behave they flunk out as a service animal. Many pets, were owners claim them to be service animals, are most often NOT real service animals. Even my pet therapy dog, which was trained, certified, insured and most importantly behaved, was not even considered a service dog.

Service animals are trained, that is the point. It is the many so call service animals they have not one once of training and all kinds of bad behavior, and their owners don't give a damn. That is MY issue with fake service animals.

 

[Gaozhen]

Real PTSD service dogs are not just random pets. They are trained animals. Any real service animal is trained, if they can't be trained to behave they flunk out as a service animal. Many pets, were owners claim them to be service animals, are most often NOT real service animals. Even my pet therapy dog, which was trained, certified, insured and most importantly behaved, was not even considered a service dog.

Service animals are trained, that is the point. It is the many so call service animals they have not one once of training and all kinds of bad behavior, and their owners don't give a damn. That is MY issue with fake service animals.

The carte blanche prohibition in the original post (and many comments throughout here) stated that even trained THERAPY animals should be prohibited, and my point is that many people need such therapy animals that are NOT full service animals. Again, there are abuses yes, I've seen them and hate that they give legitimate circumstances a bad name. My point is simply that there are people that truly need them, usually they are trained but not full service, and not to group everyone together in the crappy faker club.

 

[DebBrown]

I understand people will go to great lengths to take their pets places. It's a tough call. I saw this article earlier today: http://wgntv.com/2017/10/09/blind-mans-service-dog-attacked-by-fake-service-dog/

 

[heathpack]

I understand people will go to great lengths to take their pets places. It's a tough call. I saw this article earlier today: http://wgntv.com/2017/10/09/blind-mans-service-dog-attacked-by-fake-service-dog/

In that article, a guy had a pet pit bull on a train. After it attacked the service dog, he claimed the pit bull was a service dog. He did not go to “great lengths”. He just made up a lie on the spot and was immediately called on the lie by the police.

The article then goes on to state that there’s “nothing” the police could do, as if this is the case because of the service dog claim. Actually, the police can do nothing because it’s not a crime for one dog to bite another.

The blind man can attempt civil action against the pit bull’s owner for costs incurred in treating the real service dog’s injuries and will probably win that law suit. But beyond that, there is not much to be done unless the law is changed.