Is 2019 the 'Year of the Timeshare'? [Marriott/Vistana/Hyatt in the DC speculation]

[JIMinNC]

It’s why I said “most if not 90%” not hard facts. Geez guy but seriously it’s around 60% average comes from existing owners, the few lucky new owners get to come here and learn to rescind.

But you like my figures? I can be in timeshare sales......

I may have misinterpreted what you meant by your 90% figure. I thought you were saying that 90% of all timeshare sales were resales, as opposed to developer sales. That didn't make sense to me because everything I have ever read about the timeshare market says that the developer-sales market dwarfs the resale market, since most buyers don't even know the resale market exists when they go to a presentation. TUGgers know all about resale, but we are a tiny, tiny minority of all owners.

It is true that MVC says that 60% of all of their annual developer sales come from existing MVC owners, and 40% comes from new buyers. That is the only verifiable stat I've seen.

 

[JIMinNC]

I noticed that resale points still costs upwards of 10K for say 2500 DC points. MVC has made sure that buying resale hurts the buyer unless they pay up. It’s why I prefer mandatory resorts in the Vistana network. Granted there aren’t as many resorts but the resorts that VSE does have are pretty spectacular. I can’t see myself worrying about booking in MVC, I’d rather just deposit and exchange for other resorts. I’d rather have 30K in my bank account than have it tied up with Marriott. You spend tHat much do they at least give to platinum elite status?

No question that Marriott has been more aggressive than either HGVC or legacy-Vistana in trying to enact rules that make resales less attractive. Prior to the advent of the DC Points system, the only thing resale weeks really couldn't do was convert to Marriott Rewards (now Bonvoy) points, and that isn't a good swap. Resale DC points also function pretty much the same as developer points, but to get that full functionality, MVC requires that the new owner pay them $3/point as an activation fee. Not cheap. Also, they typically do not allow resale weeks bought after June 2010 to play in points, unless their owner takes advantage of one of their annual promotions I mentioned above and buys at least 3000 points. In other words, if you buy resale, you must still pay MVC (one way or another) to play in points.

 

[CPNY]

I may have misinterpreted what you meant by your 90% figure. I thought you were saying that 90% of all timeshare sales were resales, as opposed to developer sales. That didn't make sense to me because everything I have ever read about the timeshare market says that the developer-sales market dwarfs the resale market, since most buyers don't even know the resale market exists when they go to a presentation. TUGgers know all about resale, but we are a tiny, tiny minority of all owners.

It is true that MVC says that 60% of all of their annual developer sales come from existing MVC owners, and 40% comes from new buyers. That is the only verifiable stat I've seen.

My point is that most people are being pressured many times. We see the lucky ones who stumble here. How many of them always post, “they swore they wouldn’t look up reviews”. I believe they think that because they know deep down it was a bad purchase. So many just go on paying the bill while others get to rescind. You say the word timeshare and most people roll their eyes. Then to have to explain that you own in a good program and got in cheap and it works out well. But the vast majority associate timeshares with the word scam.... now with the increasing commercials we are seeing on tv with timeshare exit teams and companies getting you out of your unwanted TS, that view point from the non owner is seeing what they always believed. “It must be bad if they have dedicated companies to get people out of that monstrosity” (paraphrasing here). The point is, MVC having a deedback or putting in their contract they will take the unit back makes sense and should have always been in place. Not to say you get a refund. You take out a mortgage you’re on the hook for that bill. But once it’s paid, sure we will take it back. They can sell it again and they doubled their money. One way to ensure the resale of that unit taken back is to control the resale market by forcing reactivation of the points sold on the resale market, so they make their money there as well. Revenue will go up but the future purchaser the millennial will be a harder sell.

 

[kds4]

I’ve noticed destination point resales have resort transfer fees upwards of 7500 bucks for say 2,500DP’s. Is that normal? Is that to discourage resales?

It is pure profit to compensate Marriott for the lost revenue as a result of not exercising ROFR to take the resale points back into their own inventory. There is no effort required on Marriott's part for the enrollment fees it collects off resale purchases ($500 for every 250 points bought on the resale market with a minimum fee of $3,000). I believe Marriott is killing several birds with one stone with the new benefits being added to existing owners later this year. They will be solidifying their ability to generate a steady stream of points for resale without the hassle of ROFR on a few points here and there while also significantly impacting the resale market that has been competing with their direct sales for some time. After all, why would anyone sell 3rd party if they can make more just selling their product back to the developer?

 

[CPNY]

I believe Marriott is killing several birds with one stone with the new benefits being added to existing owners later this year. They will be solidifying their ability to generate a steady After all, why would anyone sell 3rd party if they can make more just selling their product back to the developer?

Are you saying Marriott is going to pay you to take units back?

 

[kds4]

Are you saying Marriott is going to pay you to take units back?

That is what the language in my contract is referring to. It is a resale program for points, not unlike past developer resale programs for weeks.

 

[JIMinNC]

Are you saying Marriott is going to pay you to take units back?

Just one clarification...don't use the word "units" with Marriott today. Marriott no longer sells weeks at all (They haven't since June 2010). You are not buying a "unit" from MVC; you are buying a "beneficial interest" in a Trust that owns a bunch of timeshare weeks. So if they plan to offer to buy back something that they are selling now, they are buying back points/beneficial interests. It's sort of a nit-pick, but since you are a Vistana owner, you may not yet have a full understanding of how the MVC program is currently set up. It's more like the Vistana Flex programs than the weeks that have StarOptions associated with them. The weeks MVC sold prior to June 2010 do have point values assigned and can be enrolled in the DC points system, meaning they can be converted to points in any given year, in addition to the pre-existing options of using your home week or trading in II. If this is something you already knew, my apologies for assuming otherwise, but I just wanted to make sure you knew Marriott doesn't sell weeks/units any more.

 

[pchung6]

Based on what I've read here, kds4 and other MVC owners will be happy to have the access to VSN Westin/Sheraton pool. VSN owners here don't care about MVC access, they just want to stay at their Westin/Sheraton resorts, not Marriott. Westin/Sheraton is really better and that's why kds4 wants to have VSN access for free.

 

[dioxide45]

That is what the language in my contract is referring to. It is a resale program for points, not unlike past developer resale programs for weeks.

I am not sure that your contract promises much of anything. Here is what you said in the prior post about that;

In the Miscellaneous Section of my contract it reads: "I acknowledge that Marriott Vacation Club currently intends to provide a resignation/resale program for Vacation Club Points Owners who wish to exit the program in the future."

That doesn't promise anything, what they intend to do and what they do actually provide can be very different. They could simply provide a resignation program and no resale program. Resign your points for $0. Also a resale program may have a 50-60% commission, unlike the current 40% on weeks. Marriott won't want to create something that competes with their existing points product and they will want to have similar margins like they have now which with ROFR and reacquisition is probably around 60-70%

I am also not sure how what you quoted relating to resignation/resale has anything to do with a proposed integrated product. Is what you saw in writing about the promised integrated program in your contract, or was what you saw related to the integrated product just really about the resignation/resale program?

 

[dioxide45]

Based on what I've read here, kds4 and other MVC owners will be happy to have the access to VSN Westin/Sheraton pool. VSN owners here don't care about MVC access, they just want to stay at their Westin/Sheraton resorts, not Marriott. Westin/Sheraton is really better and that's why kds4 wants to have VSN access for free.

Nothing will be free. While it is speculation, I would expect current owners to have to buy up to any integrated product. Perhaps existing DC Trust owners and Sheraton/Westin Flex owners will have access, but really without a combined underlying trust which I have found no evidence of yet, it would all have to be handled through a new exchange program that is exclusive to trust point owners (DC or Vistana).

 

[JIMinNC]

Based on what I've read here, kds4 and other MVC owners will be happy to have the access to VSN Westin/Sheraton pool. VSN owners here don't care about MVC access, they just want to stay at their Westin/Sheraton resorts, not Marriott. Westin/Sheraton is really better and that's why kds4 wants to have VSN access for free.

Not necessarily. As far as geographic locations go, the only areas that VSN Westin/Sheraton adds for me as a Marriott owner are St John, Bahamas, and Mexico. I guess they also add the Princeville area on Kauai to Marriotts existing locations in Lihue and Poipu.

So, as a Marriott owner, I'm really not sure how much we really would use any ability to book at the VSE locations. Granted, some of the Westin locations may be nicer than their corresponding MVC locations, but we're perfectly content with the MVC locations we've stayed at. We would certainly love to sample the VSE locations if there was an inexpensive option to do so (we do love Westin hotels and the Westin Los Cabos we've stayed at twice was incredibly nice), but I'm not sure we would pay significant money to do so. We briefly considered buying a Mandatory VSE resale a year or so ago, well prior to the merger, but ultimately decided that VSE didn't add enough things that we want to what we already have with Marriott and HGVC to justify even the low cost of a Vistana Orlando resale.

I do think MVC owners might have some rightful concern for VSE competition for the places MVC has that VSE doesn't:

Oahu-KoOlina
Kauai-Poipu
Kauai-Lihue
Big Island
Hilton Head Island, SC
Marco Island, FL
Newport Coast, California
Aruba
St Kitts
Paris
Marbella, Spain
Mallorca, Spain
Surfers Paradise, Australia
Bali
Phuket, Thailand
Boston
New York
San Francisco
Las Vegas
Miami/South Beach
Washington, D.C.
Williamsburg, VA
Lake Tahoe, California
San Diego
Park City, Utah

 

[pchung6]

Not necessarily. As far as geographic locations go, the only areas that VSN Westin/Sheraton adds for me as a Marriott owner are St John, Bahamas, and Mexico. I guess they also add the Princeville area on Kauai to Marriotts existing locations in Lihue and Poipu.

So, as a Marriott owner, I'm really not sure how much we really would use any ability to book at the VSE locations. Granted, some of the Westin locations may be nicer than their corresponding MVC locations, but we're perfectly content with the MVC locations we've stayed at. We would certainly love to sample the VSE locations if there was an inexpensive option to do so (we do love Westin hotels and the Westin Los Cabos we've stayed at twice was incredibly nice), but I'm not sure we would pay significant money to do so. We briefly considered buying a Mandatory VSE resale a year or so ago, well prior to the merger, but ultimately decided that VSE didn't add enough things that we want to what we already have with Marriott and HGVC to justify even the low cost of a Vistana Orlando resale.

I do think MVC owners might have some rightful concern for VSE competition for the places MVC has that VSE doesn't:

Oahu-KoOlina
Kauai-Poipu
Kauai-Lihue
Big Island
Hilton Head Island, SC
Marco Island, FL
Newport Coast, California
Aruba
St Kitts
Paris
Marbella, Spain
Mallorca, Spain
Surfers Paradise, Australia
Bali
Phuket, Thailand
Boston
New York
San Francisco
Las Vegas
Miami/South Beach
Washington, D.C.
Williamsburg, VA
Lake Tahoe, California
San Diego
Park City, Utah

Just to be honest, as both VSE owner and Marriott owner, beside Ko Olina I don't want any of these other Marriott garbage. I'm fine with any of Westin, please just leave VSN alone. I'm speaking my opinion, any Westin is better.

 

[JIMinNC]

Just to be honest, as both VSE owner and Marriott owner, beside Ko Olina I don't want any of these other Marriott garbage. I'm fine with any of Westin, please just leave VSN alone. I'm speaking my opinion, any Westin is better.

Yep. We all have different goals and tastes.

 

[bazzap]

Not necessarily. As far as geographic locations go, the only areas that VSN Westin/Sheraton adds for me as a Marriott owner are St John, Bahamas, and Mexico. I guess they also add the Princeville area on Kauai to Marriotts existing locations in Lihue and Poipu.

So, as a Marriott owner, I'm really not sure how much we really would use any ability to book at the VSE locations. Granted, some of the Westin locations may be nicer than their corresponding MVC locations, but we're perfectly content with the MVC locations we've stayed at. We would certainly love to sample the VSE locations if there was an inexpensive option to do so (we do love Westin hotels and the Westin Los Cabos we've stayed at twice was incredibly nice), but I'm not sure we would pay significant money to do so. We briefly considered buying a Mandatory VSE resale a year or so ago, well prior to the merger, but ultimately decided that VSE didn't add enough things that we want to what we already have with Marriott and HGVC to justify even the low cost of a Vistana Orlando resale.

I do think MVC owners might have some rightful concern for VSE competition for the places MVC has that VSE doesn't:

Oahu-KoOlina
Kauai-Poipu
Kauai-Lihue
Big Island
Hilton Head Island, SC
Marco Island, FL
Newport Coast, California
Aruba
St Kitts
Paris
Marbella, Spain
Mallorca, Spain
Surfers Paradise, Australia
Bali
Phuket, Thailand
Boston
New York
San Francisco
Las Vegas
Miami/South Beach
Washington, D.C.
Williamsburg, VA
Lake Tahoe, California
San Diego
Park City, Utah

As a European resident MVC owner, the acquisition only really seems to offer me alternative long haul options.
So as an owner at 4 of these locations, if any changes results in VSE competition for the places MVC has that VSE doesn’t that might just encourage me to consider refocusing on using my home resort weeks rather than to elect them for points and face increased competition for use of those points.

 

[Dean]

They al

They already have a deedback program and just started one with Vistana. We are seeing so many commercials now about getting out of your dreaded timeshare, no one is buying them anymore. Most if not 90% of purchases are from existing owners. All that is telling me they will take your points back and let you out. I mean, why not? They already got your tens of thousands of dollars for you to get in at “the right time”.

In general timeshares are sold not bought and that's true for those who own already and those who it's their first purchase. Most new buyers don't understand the product, won't use it appropriately (sometimes at all) and don't use it in such a way as to take advantage of its benefits. The benefit is in using it to your advantage. As I write this from Marriott's Grande Ocean with a group of 59 people with MVC making it possible for me to arrange, that's the best benefit for me. I've been to most US & Caribbean Marriott's and some Westin's and Vistana locations in those areas as well. What I've seen so far is that all have some properties that are helpful for me and I would stay at again. Comparatively speaking, the Westin's and Marriott's I visit are comparable, the Vistana's just a notch below but nothing to complain about.

The Timeshare Exit's of the world are in business because of what I stated above plus the facts that life happens and many (if not most) who buy timeshares simply can't afford them. The reality is that the better you are at selling them, the more reasonable it is to get them back and sell again.

 

[Fairwinds]

Haven’t attended a presentation for years but this is what I may or may not have seen elsewhere:

TOP SECRET

NOT FOR PUBLIC RELEASE OUTSIDE SALES CENTER

Marriott Vacation Club to partner with SpaceX

- vistana owners will pay more but are naturally excluded forever and under all circumstances

- select and executive members refer to vistana clause above

- presidential members included with additional purchase

- chairman’s club members retain all previous sense of entitlement

This document is produced for the express purpose of selling timeshare or to provide levity and is not intended to represent reality. Nor does it represent the opinion of fairwinds

 

[dougp26364]

Based on what I've read here, kds4 and other MVC owners will be happy to have the access to VSN Westin/Sheraton pool. VSN owners here don't care about MVC access, they just want to stay at their Westin/Sheraton resorts, not Marriott. Westin/Sheraton is really better and that's why kds4 wants to have VSN access for free.

I must stay I'm a little surprised at the posts by Westin/VSN owners on this thread. The recurring theme seems to be they prefer MVC owners stay out of their resorts. I guess we all have a little snobbery when it comes to our home system. Personally, I don't feel Westin/Sheraton has better quality resorts/units based on my limited personal experience with both, BUT, that's my personal experience. Just because the few Westin/SVN owners who have posted on this thread don't want expanded access offered by MVC locations doesn't mean the majority of Westin/SVN owners won't find value in the expanded options that will become available.

Honestly, while I like and enjoy the Westin resorts, the only thing they have over the MVC resorts as far as I'm concerned are that their beds are more comfortable, and that's strictly a matter of opinion/preference. Past that this MVC owner is perfectly happy staying within the MVC system with the exception of new locations that may be more readily available due to the merger vs having to exchange into them thru I.I.

My problem is Westin/VSN doesn't have any locations that I have a great deal of interest in other than expanded options in Hawaii. More units should mean more opportunity to get the week and unit size I want if I'm not to picky about which resort we book. Other than that Hyatt has ONE location, that being Sedona, that really interests me. We love Sedona and have missed having easy access into Sedona since getting rid of or DRI ownership. Key West may be of interest but, maybe only once or twice, not as a regular trip.

I doubt VSN owners will really have to worry all that much the MVC owners will swamp their resorts. There's a lot of overlap and I'd imagine there's going to be a great deal of system preferences built into any internal exchange program to keep each systems owners happy and booking where they own. Purely speculation of course but I could see limitations such as booking 12 months out for your home system and maybe 9 or 10 months out for any other system in which you didn't buy direct. Maybe those windows close a bit at the higher Elite levels to where Chairman level (or higher if they add another level) can book any system week at 13 months regardless of which system they purchased.

I do know one thing, nearly every single thought I had before the DC was introduced was DEAD WRONG. This time around I'm strictly counting on what I already own and continued usage as I've had within the MVC system. I'm guessing I'll have more options in the future, but it will take time to figure out which, if any, of those options have value. If having to wait until 9 or 10 months to book a Westin/SVN/Hyatt resort in Hawaii is the restriction, I think I'll stick with my MVC ownership and it's 13 month booking window to reserve the week and unit size I want, thank you very much.

It's all about options for me. I think for most owners in systems it's all about options and that's what keeps us in one system and not another. We enjoy the options and quality of the systems we're in. For instance, we own and enjoy HGVC as well as MVC. The problem is, HGVC doesn't offer the locations MVC offers and, they keep introducing new products that require different ownerships within their own system. Not nearly as many options as MVC offers, thus we own 4 deeded week contracts and now trust points with MVC while owning only one week with HGVC. If not for Elara in Vegas, which we love because of it's location attached to Planet Hollywood and the magnificent floor to ceiling windows that make up the exterior walls, I'd consider bailing out of HGVC all together and consolidating even further into MVC.

 

[pchung6]

Purely speculation of course but I could see limitations such as booking 12 months out for your home system and maybe 9 or 10 months out for any other system in which you didn't buy direct.

I hope it is just your speculation. This will the problem for most VSN owners. Why MVC owners can access at 9-10 months out while VSN can only access at 8 months? Why MVC can book at 13 months at home resort while VSN owner can book at 12? It’s not going to fly for VSN owners.

Also for most VSN owners, most will say Westin/Sheraton is better and that’s why we bought this. I don’t care about any Marriott garbage, nothing is good I don’t want to stay at Marriott, period. it’s like MVC vs Diamond resorts. Just look at Westin Ka’anapali vs MOC or Westin St John vs St Thomas, it’s not even close. I agree there should be some kind of exchange across platform, but you need to respect the owners of the other system. We own this and it’s my home away home. I will have problem if someone from MVC can book WKORV at 13 months and I can only book at 12 as a deed owner, seriously problem. Same goes to 9-10 months.

 

[CPNY]

Can we just all agree that we are all happy with the programs we bought into, and we bought in for different reasons? I personally used to love my old home resort and still do although I sold that deed, I still book back in with options. Everyone travels differently. Personally speaking none of the destinations in MVC entice me with the exception of Aruba. I prefer the Caribbean being an east coaster, having Mexico in my network with VSN is also an added bonus if I ever decide to go. The pulse resorts don’t attract me because I’d rather stay in my favorite south beach hotel when I go, and I live in nyc soo there’s that. As far as Europe, Well airbnb does me fine every time.

Whatever is going to happen will happen, if MVC members get access to VSN but VSN owners don’t get access so be it. The only thing for certain that I personally know for a FACT is, that I wouldn’t buy anymore developer purchases or MVC inflated resale purchases for a dual program. Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m about to figure out where my next trip is

 

[CPNY]

I hope it is just your speculation. This will the problem for most VSN owners. Why MVC owners can access at 9-10 months out while VSN can only access at 8 months? Why MVC can book at 13 months at home resort while VSN owner can book at 12? It’s not going to fly for VSN owners.

Also for most VSN owners, most will say Westin/Sheraton is better and that’s why we bought this. I don’t care about any Marriott garbage, nothing is good I don’t want to stay at Marriott, period. it’s like MVC vs Diamond resorts. Just look at Westin Ka’anapali vs MOC or Westin St John vs St Thomas, it’s not even close. I agree there should be some kind of exchange across platform, but you need to respect the owners of the other system. I will have problem if someone from MVC can book WKORV at 13 months and I can only book at 12 as a deed owner, seriously problem. Same goes to 9-10 months.

Well it depends, if the inventory comes from a different trust, separate from VSN inventory then yes, they can put whatever booking window they please. I’d much rather them do something like this. Everyone has access with a cross booking fee of 299 bucks, sort of like an exchange fee we pay with interval now. You’ll get more people will to pay that way than spend thousands upfront which I doubt people will be running to do. I for one would never spend another 10K minimum with added increasing annual fees to book MVC units, I’d rather just rent on redweek. But I would on occasion pay a few hundred bucks every so often.

One way to ensure only developer purchasers have that right is for the rule to make sure the interest is enrolled in the bonvoy program. That eliminates resale purchasers and would make them add on to enjoy that benefit. I’d be ok with that. I still wouldn’t buy more to enroll but there ya have it. If they roll out a NEW program they can pretty much set whatever rules they want.

 

[kds4]

Based on what I've read here, kds4 and other MVC owners will be happy to have the access to VSN Westin/Sheraton pool. VSN owners here don't care about MVC access, they just want to stay at their Westin/Sheraton resorts, not Marriott. Westin/Sheraton is really better and that's why kds4 wants to have VSN access for free.

I have never stayed at either a Westin or Sheraton vacation club property, so I have no idea if they are better. I also do not 'want to have VSN access for free' (since I don't even know if I will consider it better than a Marriott property if/when I do try one). All of my comments about the integrated product are only what I heard during the meeting. I didn't read anything about the ILG acquisition.

 

[kds4]

I am not sure that your contract promises much of anything. Here is what you said in the prior post about that;



That doesn't promise anything, what they intend to do and what they do actually provide can be very different. They could simply provide a resignation program and no resale program. Resign your points for $0. Also a resale program may have a 50-60% commission, unlike the current 40% on weeks. Marriott won't want to create something that competes with their existing points product and they will want to have similar margins like they have now which with ROFR and reacquisition is probably around 60-70%

I am also not sure how what you quoted relating to resignation/resale has anything to do with a proposed integrated product. Is what you saw in writing about the promised integrated program in your contract, or was what you saw related to the integrated product just really about the resignation/resale program?

The details of what I read had nothing to do with an integrated product or the ILG acquisition. Also, the commission is not in the range you describe.

 

[turkel]

Comical....we should respect owners while calling their ownership garbage.

I prefer my MVC ownerships and have no desire to access VSN, I have stayed at 2 and meh. Wouldn’t call em garbage....

Personally I also wouldn’t disparage VSN on the VSN board but hey that’s just me being civil.

 

[grgs]

I'm a Starwood/VSN owner, and I don't think Marriott is garbage. When we bought our 1st timeshare in 2004, Marriott didn't have a points program, so that pushed us over to the Starwood side. But we've enjoyed our stays at Marriott resorts, and I would be happy to vacation in more of them. Certainly Marriott has many more locations. While I am generally satisfied by the location options I have now, if I had access to more locations, I would be interested in exploring them from time to time.

While I enjoy speculating as much as anyone (otherwise, I wouldn't read all these threads), it's hard for me to get too worked up before anything official comes out.

 

[GregT]

I also own both systems and have had tremendous experiences with both ownerships. I love MOC, WKORV, WPORV, Ritz STT, Ko Olina, Grande Ocean (Hilton Head), Park City (both properties), Boston, Harborside, Aruba Ocean Club, and Lagunamar and have had mostly great experiences at any of my timeshares. I think the quality is very good or better at all properties. There are a couple (not listed) that I think are below that level, but that is the exception.

When DC was introduced, everyone was concerned it was going to kill the Interval trading experience. It hasn’t killed it, but has made uptrading more rare. I’ve continued to have good experience with Interval trades (with my preference).

I think StarOption traders will continue to experience success and I think I will continue to access WPORV with my StarOptions. And those VSN owners who wish to participate will now be able to easily access Aruba/Hilton Head/Park City, or whatever location they choose that is dependent on II trades now.

From a speculation perspective, I think there will be an exchange ratio (30:1?) for StarOptions to/from DC points and then after the exchange the user still uses the existing systems rules (8 months out for VSN, etc).

In time, I speculate VSN weeks will be assigned a DC point total and be able to be redeemed directly for DC points. We will see.

I think it will be a positive for both parties - access to new locations but respecting the existing rights (and experience) of current owners.

But all speculation at this point. I do think Aruba in particular has appeal to VSN owners, who were disappointed when the Westin Aruba was canceled. I am sure Marriott will heavily promote Aruba when trying to market to Starwood owners.

Interesting stuff.....

Best,

Greg