I think I may have been scammed.

[Gypsy65]

The resort manager, with whom I was messaging on FB and with whom I spoke on the phone.

He told me via FB messenger that he had recorded us as the sole owners of that unit for that week.



PayPal was my suggestion. He had first said a cashier's check or money order, but he wanted it sent overnight because it was Friday and for whatever reason he wanted it recorded at the county no later than the following Wednesday. PP was more convenient for me. I did not realize PP does not allow for real estate transactions. At first he said he didn't have a PP account, and then he said oh wait, my wife has an account and he said it was attached to their joint bank account. The surname on the PP account was the same as the surname of the person who I was talking to and whose signature is on the QCD. He confirmed each step, that he had received the money in PP, and when they got it transferred from PP to his own account.

It is a VERY small resort; only a dozen units. They don't have a separate resale department.

None of the above was a red flag to you?

Cashier check. Certain date. Then PayPal?

Hope it works out. But if not then learn from it

 

[brigala]

None of the above was a red flag to you?

Cashier check. Certain date. Then PayPal?

Hope it works out. But if not then learn from it

I was a little more trusting because I was communicating directly with a resort employee. I didn't really expect to be scammed by the resort manager.

 

[Gypsy65]

I was a little more trusting because I was communicating directly with a resort employee. I didn't really expect to be scammed by the resort manager.

I get it and most likely it’ll all work out fine
But in today’s world everyone is looking for that easy payday
I watch my back like the mob.
Any items I sell that are bigger ticket type I meet at a bank. Have them count it and they also make sure it’s real. I then have the bank give me a cashiers check
I’ve made purchases via PayPal where the seller wanted me to mark it as a gift or something like that so they could avoid the PayPal fees
Nope. Either I tell them to absorb the fee or keep the item. If it’s a good deal then I’ll cover that amount

In a transaction like yours. I would have used a 3rd party escrow service

 

[Aurelius]

Not sure piling on the OP is going to help anything I think a lesson has been learned.

I hope it works out for the best.

 

[chapjim]

Not sure piling on the OP is going to help anything I think a lesson has been learned.

I hope it works out for the best.

Lots of generals after the war is over.

 

[Gypsy65]

Not sure that’s a fact??

Maybe some helpful advice for the next person wouldn’t you agree??

I hope it wasn’t anything more than miscommunication but with ALL the information at our finger tips I would have to think we as a people should be better informed. Period!!

Maybe trust is a generational thing. The younger you are. Perhaps the less you trust?? Or maybe it’s those in the middle who have learned from the older and younger?

 

[brigala]

I get it and most likely it’ll all work out fine
But in today’s world everyone is looking for that easy payday
I watch my back like the mob.
Any items I sell that are bigger ticket type I meet at a bank. Have them count it and they also make sure it’s real. I then have the bank give me a cashiers check
I’ve made purchases via PayPal where the seller wanted me to mark it as a gift or something like that so they could avoid the PayPal fees
Nope. Either I tell them to absorb the fee or keep the item. If it’s a good deal then I’ll cover that amount

In a transaction like yours. I would have used a 3rd party escrow service

I had no idea PayPal didn't allow for real estate transactions. A main reason I used it was because I've had good luck with PP coverage in the past. And no way in hell would I have sent that as a "gift."

I hope that the PP who said PayPal would likely recover my $$ because it was an invalid transaction is right in case this isn't just a misunderstanding. The longer it takes the resort to figure it out, the more worried I get. Seems like "it's a weekend" isn't a good reason for them to be unable to, say, contact the employee that sold me the Timeshare or look in their records to see who owns that particular week.

 

[Aurelius]

I had no idea PayPal didn't allow for real estate transactions. A main reason I used it was because I've had good luck with PP coverage in the past. And no way in hell would I have sent that as a "gift."

I hope that the PP who said PayPal would likely recover my $$ because it was an invalid transaction is right in case this isn't just a misunderstanding. The longer it takes the resort to figure it out, the more worried I get. Seems like "it's a weekend" isn't a good reason for them to be unable to, say, contact the employee that sold me the Timeshare or look in their records to see who owns that particular week.

I’d bet they’re trying to determine their liability and/or insurance coverage and most lawyers and insurers don’t work the weekend.

I’m sure they have some risk of liability here but they also probably know it’s hard to fight a low dollar claim from out of state.

Best of luck with PayPal it’s probably your path of least resistance at this point.

 

[brigala]

Ok, so the lack of communication tells me the resort is probably lawyering up.

What kind of lawyer do I need to talk to for advice? And one in Montana or one in my own state?

I have sent a message to the "seller" through PayPal to start that process so I can file a grievance with PayPal should that become necessary and hope they accept it.

 

[Panina]

Ok, so the lack of communication tells me the resort is probably lawyering up.

What kind of lawyer do I need to talk to for advice? And one in Montana or one in my own state?

I have sent a message to the "seller" through PayPal to start that process so I can file a grievance with PayPal should that become necessary and hope they accept it.

Did you call today? I would keep calling.

 

[brigala]

Yes, I have called and left a message, and I have emailed.

 

[ecwinch]

Did you end up contacting the County recorder to see if the deed was filed?

You certainly have a lawyer local to you contact them, but any litigation would likely require local counsel.

 

[TheTimeTraveler]

Ok, so the lack of communication tells me the resort is probably lawyering up.

What kind of lawyer do I need to talk to for advice? And one in Montana or one in my own state?

I have sent a message to the "seller" through PayPal to start that process so I can file a grievance with PayPal should that become necessary and hope they accept it.

I would exhaust all OTHER options prior to going the Lawyer route; reason being that a Lawyer's hourly rate will quickly eat into your pocket, and by the time you get done you may not end of retrieving a lot of the money that you originally spent.




.

 

[brigala]

I will not retain a lawyer until everything else has been exhausted. And I don't want to frighten the resort at this point by threatening a lawyer. I'm hoping we can work this out like civilized adults, and I'm also hoping PayPal can recover most of my money. But I would at least like to know who I should call if it comes down to it. We have a real estate lawyer locally, and actually we asked her to go over our stuff for this sale but she declined saying she wasn't knowledgeable about Montana law.

I have not contacted the County Recorder yet. I know my Quit Claim deed was filed. It has all the appropriate marks and stickers on it. But filing it means nothing if the seller didn't have the interest to release in the property.

 

[TheTimeTraveler]

I will not retain a lawyer until everything else has been exhausted. And I don't want to frighten the resort at this point by threatening a lawyer. I'm hoping we can work this out like civilized adults, and I'm also hoping PayPal can recover most of my money. But I would at least like to know who I should call if it comes down to it. We have a real estate lawyer locally, and actually we asked her to go over our stuff for this sale but she declined saying she wasn't knowledgeable about Montana law.

I have not contacted the County Recorder yet. I know my Quit Claim deed was filed. It has all the appropriate marks and stickers on it. But filing it means nothing if the seller didn't have the interest to release in the property.

If the seller didn't have the interest to release the property then there is a lot of fraud here!




.

 

[brigala]

If the seller didn't have the interest to release the property then there is a lot of fraud here!

.

Exactly. And the seller was using the resort phone number and resort Facebook page and representing himself (truthfully or not) as the Resort manager. So there we go. If this is the case, the Resort likely has some liability and I don't blame them for taking some time to try to line up their ducks, but I wish they would tell me what's going on.

What I need to know for sure is whether he had the right to release that property to me; if he did, then we are good and we just need to clear up the clerical error that has led the current resort management to not know who owns the resort. I have all the proof I need of the sale, assuming it was his to sell. If he didn't, then the stuff has hit the fan and we have a mess to clean up.

 

[brigala]

I got a reply from the owner of the PayPal account, the wife of the guy I bought from. She provided me with a link to the QCD record on the website from Flathead County. From there I was able to get enough information to search and I can see that three QCDs were recorded on that date: One from a private party to the resort, one from the resort to the person we purchased from, and one from that person to us.

I see a number of other transactions recorded regarding shares from that resort, but none others that specify our week/unit.

I'm really hoping it's a clerical error. I have asked the lady I am emailing with through PayPal to contact the resort also and help clear it up, and I emailed the resort the filings from the website in hopes that it helps.

 

[Grammarhero]

I got a reply from the owner of the PayPal account, the wife of the guy I bought from. She provided me with a link to the QCD record on the website from Flathead County. From there I was able to get enough information to search and I can see that three QCDs were recorded on that date: One from a private party to the resort, one from the resort to the person we purchased from, and one from that person to us.

I see a number of other transactions recorded regarding shares from that resort, but none others that specify our week/unit.

I'm really hoping it's a clerical error. I have asked the lady I am emailing with through PayPal to contact the resort also and help clear it up, and I emailed the resort the filings from the website in hopes that it helps.

I’m a lawyer barred in NY. I’d like to give back to TUG for helping me save thousands of dollars. This is just general advice, as I’m not barred in MT or the state where you live.

Give it at least a week to let it all clear out: whether it be clerical error or fraud. If it’s clearical error, then the resort has some huge training and apology to do. If it’s fraud, then you may go to the police likely Montana. You could go to your police as well, but they’d probably tell you to file a police report to the MT county police. Depending on MT laws, the resort may have the legal responsibility to report the suspected fraud themselves.

Lawyering up does not necessarily mean they’re necessarily going to fight or deny your claim. It just means that they’re determining their legal options, insurance, legal liability toward you and from the manager or his wife, and paying the attorney $300/hr to do so.

Oftentimes, their legal insurance will deny fraud claims such as this. Legal insurance may cover slip and falls, but sometimes nothing like this. That is not necessarily a bad thing, as you have some leverage in that the resort may not want to spend $300/hr fighting your claim in court.

Legal jurisdiction depends on the contract. On most timeshare contracts, it’s where the contract was signed. If you did not have a contract talking about legal jurisdiction, that’s a HUGE red flag the size of the kool-aid man.

Title insurance comes into play here. Premium title insurance covers fraud. Basic title insurance typically covers negligently messed up transactions but not fraud. Does the resort have premium title insurance?

Also, the property manager, his wife, and their situation come into play. Does said manager have a drug or spending problem? Does the resort know where the manager or his wife live? Were the manager or wife both knowingly doing this together, or did the wife unknowingly engage in this possibly shady/ fraudulent transaction? Does the resort manager have a history of embezzlement?

The resort may tell the manager and wife to clean this up (ie pay you back), or both get fired and possibly get reported to the police.

I hope this hot burning garbage all gets sorted out.

 

[dioxide45]

The HOA should have some type of fidelity insurance to cover situations like this if it turns out to be fraud. Though that will require legal action.

 

[brigala]

Thank you. I am trying to take deep breaths and be patient. I am still hoping this is a huge clerical error. I am under the impression that the guy who sold it to me is no longer working at the resort; in fact in our phone conversation he mentioned that he was looking for a career change. So firing won't hold much weight.

We'll just have to wait and see, I guess. It causes me a great deal of anxiety to not know what's going on. I am a person who wants to embark on a course of action and without knowing "error" or "fraud" at this point I have no direction to go into.

In the grand scheme of things, it's not a massive amount of money in terms of the resort. Hopefully whatever happened they will want to deal fairly with us and we can come to an agreement on what to do next. I'm just frustrated that they have not returned my calls or emails today.

 

[Grammarhero]

Please kindly understand that the resort may be worried as well. I’m sure they’re hoping that it’s just a clerical error and not outright fraud.

With the situation described, all actions of resort employees may be investigated by MT police or the MT Attorney General. The resort and their employees are threading carefully. Any screw up may compound the screw up, or make it look like they’re in on the suspected fraud even if they aren’t. They don’t mean to ignore you, but it’s probably their (but not yours) best course of action.

I also forgot to mention. You could also go to the MT Attorney General if this turns out to be fraudulent.




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[Grammarhero]

Obviously, even though you ignored some red flags and went against your better judgment, you did insist on PayPal and FB messenger which left some paper trail even if PayPal doesn’t usually protect real estate transactions.

Note: using PayPal won’t protect you against foreign transactions.


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[Grammarhero]

FWIW, it looks like both the MT AG and DA has prosecutorial authority.

MT timeshare Act surprisingly skimpy.

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[Grammarhero]

If it turns out to be fraudulent, looks like you can sue the wife, manager, and resort.

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[Snazzylass]

If it turns out to be fraudulent, looks like you can sue the wife.

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Gah, your links and posts are quite helpful but your state abbreviations were throwing me off. I couldn't figure out if the OP lives in Missouri? And I was super confused how Missouri would help.
Now I'm thinking that you meant MT?
Anyway, all those QCD's sound messy and suspicious. What would be the reason for that? To sell the T/S at a higher price? That seems doubtful.
Was there a title co used? Doesn't sound like it. OP makes no mention.

OP, I am super sorry for your situation. Besides the mess with the sale, I thought it odd to wait and contact the resort in high season to let them know you would be using your fixed week. But, I own floating. Wondering what sort of information you were given regarding all that? Often in sales, it is mentioned who pays the current year MF and use. You didn't say anything about that. Anyway, best of luck that things work out for you. It sounds like a cute little place.