How much do you spend on Marriott Maintenance Fees?

[ilene13]

We bought our first timeshare in 1980. We have always considered them as guaranteed vacations not investments. Many of the questions in this thread bother me. Amongst our 7 weeks we own 3 platinum weeks in Aruba. We have been traveling to Aruba since 1987. Until the Ocean Club was built in 2000, we stayed at the Hyatt. As an educator we have always gone to Aruba weeks 50-52. For the past 4 years I have been having a lot of trouble getting the weeks that I want because many owners consider it a business, they own multiple weeks and seasons they book the weeks very early and then use them as rental property. It is not fair to the owners who want to use their weeks. So, asking about how much people earn using their timeshare as a business is pretty upsetting to me! The intent of timeshares is not to create side businesses for people.

 

[bazzap]

We bought our first timeshare in 1980. We have always considered them as guaranteed vacations not investments. Many of the questions in this thread bother me. Amongst our 7 weeks we own 3 platinum weeks in Aruba. We have been traveling to Aruba since 1987. Until the Ocean Club was built in 2000, we stayed at the Hyatt. As an educator we have always gone to Aruba weeks 50-52. For the past 4 years I have been having a lot of trouble getting the weeks that I want because many owners consider it a business, they own multiple weeks and seasons they book the weeks very early and then use them as rental property. It is not fair to the owners who want to use their weeks. So, asking about how much people earn using their timeshare as a business is pretty upsetting to me! The intent of timeshares is not to create side businesses for people.

I share broadly similar views to you about the rental issue.
A dilemma we do face though is that many, if not all, of us when initially buying were very clearly “sold” as one of our usage options the possibility of renting out our weeks.
MVC still promote the rental option even today, albeit now just through their own operation
https://owners.marriottvacationclub.com/timeshare/mvco/vacationOptions/weeks-makeYourVillaAvailable/
I am sure most of us took this to mean that if we couldn’t use our week(s) for stays in any given year then we could rent them out to cover our costs and even make a reasonable profit.
We certainly didn’t interpret this as being able to buy up large numbers of weeks with the specific intent of renting them out as a profitable enterprise, although I had never seen anything to suggest this was not allowed.
We have read that recently MVC have taken some action to stop such obvious large scale commercial business activity in Aruba specifically, although this does not seem to have resolved the issue from your experience?
I do believe it would help considerably if we all had a better and common understanding of what is and more importantly is not acceptable as far as rentals are concerned.

 

[ilene13]

I share broadly similar views to you about the rental issue.
A dilemma we do face though is that many, if not all, of us when initially buying were very clearly “sold” as one of our usage options the possibility of renting out our weeks.
MVC still promote the rental option even today, albeit now just through their own operation
https://owners.marriottvacationclub.com/timeshare/mvco/vacationOptions/weeks-makeYourVillaAvailable/
I am sure most of us took this to mean that if we couldn’t use our week(s) for stays in any given year then we could rent them out to cover our costs and even make a reasonable profit.
We certainly didn’t interpret this as being able to buy up large numbers of weeks with the specific intent of renting them out as a profitable enterprise, although I had never seen anything to suggest this was not allowed.
We have read that recently MVC have taken some action to stop such obvious large scale commercial business activity in Aruba specifically, although this does not seem to have resolved the issue from your experience?
I do believe it would help considerably if we all had a better and common understanding of what is and more importantly is not acceptable as far as rentals are concerned.

I too periodically rent out one of my weeks if we are not using them. I made a conscientious decision last December when I did not get the dates I wanted I was not going to perpetuate the “business “ model for these owners by renting a week from one of them, so we are staying 5 days in the hotel using MRP. MVC says that they are working on this issue but there has been no resolution as of yet.

 

[TravelTime]

We bought our first timeshare in 1980. We have always considered them as guaranteed vacations not investments. Many of the questions in this thread bother me. Amongst our 7 weeks we own 3 platinum weeks in Aruba. We have been traveling to Aruba since 1987. Until the Ocean Club was built in 2000, we stayed at the Hyatt. As an educator we have always gone to Aruba weeks 50-52. For the past 4 years I have been having a lot of trouble getting the weeks that I want because many owners consider it a business, they own multiple weeks and seasons they book the weeks very early and then use them as rental property. It is not fair to the owners who want to use their weeks. So, asking about how much people earn using their timeshare as a business is pretty upsetting to me! The intent of timeshares is not to create side businesses for people.

I totally agree with you. There are rules against commercial rental of timeshares. I tried to buy just enough that I can use what I own. If I have an extra week now and then, I might rent it just to not lose the MF. However, I bought to use in high value destinations and I own several timeshare systems for different purposes. My main goal is to stay in larger, more upscale destinations and resorts so I suspect I will personally use 99% of what I own and rent very little, if any. I think it is a lot of work to rent out timeshares and the margin is small. So if we find we can’t use everything we own, we will probably sell some. I think the option to rent out a timeshare here and there that someone can’t personally use makes sense. But I agree mass acquisition of timeshares just for rental purposes is unfair to owners like us who buy to use.

 

[bazzap]

I totally agree with you. There are rules against commercial rental of timeshares. I tried to buy just enough that I can use what I own. If I have an extra week now and then, I might rent it just to not lose the MF. However, I bought to use in high value destinations and I own several timeshare systems for different purposes. My main goal is to stay in larger, more upscale destinations and resorts so I suspect I will personally use 99% of what I own and rent very little, if any. I think it is a lot of work to rent out timeshares and the margin is small. So if we find we can’t use everything we own, we will probably sell some. I think the option to rent out a timeshare here and there that someone can’t personally use makes sense. But I agree mass aquisition of timeshares just for rental purposes is unfair to owners like us who buy to use.

I also agree that “commercial” rental of timeshares is unfair and I believe against the rules.
However, is this actually defined by MVC anywhere?
What is “commercial” - 2, 3, 5, 10 or more weeks one year, just a few weeks but every year.....?
Unless there is clarity, this will just continue.

 

[TravelTime]

I also agree that “commercial” rental of timeshares is unfair and I believe against the rules.
However, is this actually defined by MVC anywhere?
What is “commercial” - 2, 3, 5, 10 or more weeks one year, just a few weeks but every year.....?
Unless there is clarity, this will just continue.

Someone may know if MVC has a definition but I would think “commercial” means using your timeshares as a business for profit, as opposed to renting them out when you can’t use them yourself. I wonder how many people actually run timeshare weeks as a business?

 

[bazzap]

Someone may know if MVC has a definition but I would think “commercial” means using your timeshares as a business for profit, as opposed to renting them out when you can’t use them yourself. I wonder how many people actually run timeshare weeks as a business?

I guess we will see if someone finds an MVC definition (I have not been able to as yet).
I suspect we might all have different definitions of both “commercial” and “business for profit” though.
For example, at one of our home resorts one Owner has over 20 weeks.
They use quite a few of these themselves, but they rent out most of them for more than the MFs which effectively covers all their MFs and gives them free vacations.
Is that “business for profit”?
Strictly I would have thought it must be, but personally I believe that is quite a smart move and the MVC resort team actually promote this practice as an option available to owners.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

If you think about it, isn't the DC system a commercial system for renting out ownership weeks? Only it is MVC that is the commercial entity?

 

[SMB1]

I don't look to make a profit. I do rent out a couple weeks to off set and occasionally break even on my maintenance fees.

 

[dioxide45]

Someone may know if MVC has a definition but I would think “commercial” means using your timeshares as a business for profit, as opposed to renting them out when you can’t use them yourself. I wonder how many people actually run timeshare weeks as a business?

I would say if a US tax payer is using a Schedule C for any expenses or income related to timeshare rentals, then the IRS would at least consider it a commercial operation.

 

[bazzap]

I would say if a US tax payer is using a Schedule C for any expenses or income related to timeshare rentals, then the IRS would at least consider it a commercial operation.

I wouldn’t claim to understand US tax law (I do have an understanding, but by no means expertise on UK tax law), but wouldn’t an owner just renting out their week(s) when they couldn’t use them theoretically at least need to declare this as rental income and therefore be recognised as a commercial operation?
I can’t believe MVC or most Owners would find this too troubling though.

 

[ilene13]

I wouldn’t claim to understand US tax law (I do have an understanding, but by no means expertise on UK tax law), but wouldn’t an owner just renting out their week(s) when they couldn’t use them theoretically at least need to declare this as rental income and therefore be recognised as a commercial operation?
I can’t believe MVC or most Owners would find this too troubling though.

They are supposed to. There are people at the Aruba Ocean Club renting out 15-20 weeks.

 

[BocaBoy]

I guess we will see if someone finds an MVC definition (I have not been able to as yet).
I suspect we might all have different definitions of both “commercial” and “business for profit” though.
For example, at one of our home resorts one Owner has over 20 weeks.
They use quite a few of these themselves, but they rent out most of them for more than the MFs which effectively covers all their MFs and gives them free vacations.
Is that “business for profit”?
Strictly I would have thought it must be, but personally I believe that is quite a smart move and the MVC resort team actually promote this practice as an option available to owners.

I actually don't think this should be viewed as a "business for profit." Rather, it is a way to cover the maintenance fees.
In fact, when a developer sells weeks with a rental option as one of the benefits, I think it would be almost impossible to prevent that owner from renting any or all of his/her weeks.

 

[bazzap]

I actually don't think this should be viewed as a "business for profit." Rather, it is a way to cover the maintenance fees.
In fact, when a developer sells weeks with a rental option as one of the benefits, I think it would be almost impossible to prevent that owner from renting any or all of his/her weeks.

I very much recall the Marriott sales person “selling weeks with a rental option as one of the benefits”.
Because we don’t rent, I have never checked the details relating to this on the contracts we signed though (which is all that really counts).
I will do now, but perhaps someone who already has can comment on what if anything the contracts say about renting and any restrictions in doing so.
Certainly because Aruba Surf Club seems to be where volume rentals impact owners most, there was a threat of legal action by the Owners Association against those who rent large numbers of weeks regularly
https://www.redweek.com/forums/messages?thread_id=21865
It would be interesting to know what happened following this, whether anything similar has happened at other MVC resorts and what if anything has been said by MVC themselves about this.

 

[TravelTime]

Obviously many people rent out their weeks as Redweek has thousands of timeshare rentals and TUG has many too. If MVC wanted to crack down on this, it would be easy. I have never rented a week, so I do not know how it works. I assume when a renter checks in, it would be obvious that they are not the owner because their name is different and MVC could ask the person if they rented from an owner. Does MVC require guest certificates or just a name change on the reservation? I would not view renting out a week an owner can’t use as a problem or as something that would affect other owners. I can see how people who buy 10-50+ weeks and book them all at 12-13 months for rental purposes only would be harming the availability for us regular owners who buy to use.

 

[TravelTime]

If you think about it, isn't the DC system a commercial system for renting out ownership weeks? Only it is MVC that is the commercial entity?

MVC is the developer so this is not comparable to an owner “subletting” their week to a third party. If I am following your logic, an owner is subletting for commercial purposes, not renting then.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

Let me explain in more detail.

Person X owns a timeshare week. (Deeded to keep it simple.) Person X rents it out for profit. That is the reason person X owns the timeshare.
The timeshare week was initially sold by a developer. The timeshare, in toto, is run by a HOA, which may, or may not, be controlled by the developer.
Developer built it, and then sold the week to person X, which ends the developer's, formal interest in the timeshare. The HOA thereafter controls the timeshare complex.

So far, so good?

The DC viewpoint. The DC owns large number of weeks. In this, it is just like an individual. (More weeks, of course, but still owns the weeks.) No DC points owner owns any week. They own access to the the pool of weeks.
The DC club is making a profit off of "renting out" the weeks it owns. Now it doesn't do it on a one-to-one weeks basis, nor are they one time rentals. They are, in essence, a recurring rental contract, to the points owners.
This rental process is different from the actual initial building of a timeshare, which is what a developer does. In this MVC is wearing both "hats". The functions are different, though.

Let me give a hypothetical example. If I were to buy up, say, 500 week intervals (or 5,000, or 50,000). I could set up my own points system, in competition to the DC program. Other that the fact I would not be planning to develop any new timeshares, what would the difference be? Why would my doing it be any different.

More to the point, what in the ownership documents allows MVC to set up a rental pool, while other owners are not? That is the question. . .

 

[TravelTime]

Let me explain in more detail.

Person X owns a timeshare week. (Deeded to keep it simple.) Person X rents it out for profit. That is the reason person X owns the timeshare.
The timeshare week was initially sold by a developer. The timeshare, in toto, is run by a HOA, which may, or may not, be controlled by the developer.
Developer built it, and then sold the week to person X, which ends the developer's, formal interest in the timeshare. The HOA thereafter controls the timeshare complex.

So far, so good?

The DC viewpoint. The DC owns large number of weeks. In this, it is just like an individual. (More weeks, of course, but still owns the weeks.) No DC points owner owns any week. They own access to the the pool of weeks.
The DC club is making a profit off of "renting out" the weeks it owns. Now it doesn't do it on a one-to-one weeks basis, nor are they one time rentals. They are, in essence, a recurring rental contract, to the points owners.
This rental process is different from the actual initial building of a timeshare, which is what a developer does. In this MVC is wearing both "hats". The functions are different, though.

Let me give a hypothetical example. If I were to buy up, say, 500 week intervals (or 5,000, or 50,000). I could set up my own points system, in competition to the DC program. Other that the fact I would not be planning to develop any new timeshares, what would the difference be? Why would my doing it be any different.

More to the point, what in the ownership documents allows MVC to set up a rental pool, while other owners are not? That is the question. . .

I see where you are going but it still feels like comparing apples to oranges. In any case, you are correct that it all depends on what the MVC documents say when one purchases a deeded week or points and how “commercial” is defined.

 

[DannyTS]

The DC club is making a profit off of "renting out" the weeks it owns.

More to the point, what in the ownership documents allows MVC to set up a rental pool, while other owners are not? That is the question. . .

You are correct. The MVC is the ultimate commercial renter and this is probably why it does not enforce its own rule because it actually contradicts its own business model and is hypocritical at the minimum.

 

[bazzap]

I have just taken a quick look at “Marriott’s Grand Chateau Program Documents” (my last Developer purchase)
I only have a paper copy - although it has a reference UT_DOCS_A#1147016 v8, I haven’t been able to find an online version.

So in simple summary, in Article XI Restrictions of use on Page 66, it says
with reference to commercial use being prohibited
“which shall include, but not be limited to, any pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by a Vacation Owner that the Developer during the Developer Control period, or thereafter the Board, in its sole and exclusive discretion, concludes constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice....”
although with this exception
“any Vacation Owner or his, her or its duly authorized agent from renting his, her or its use period from time to time”

As I read / interpret this, MVC or the Board will allow Owners to rent until they decide according to criteria they don’t share or specify that they no longer can.
I am sure they will not take action unless they deem that some Owners purchase to exclusively rent as a profit making business, but this can only be an assumption as nothing is documented here.

 

[TXTortoise]

Sounds like a standard control that allows them to do something, if needed, the most likely being the scenario Sir Edward described. And apparently the threshold is much higher than whatever has been going on with the Aruba story that is always referenced.

Knew we should have split off this thread to two topics. ;-)

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

I apologise for hi-jacking the thread.

 

[rickandcindy23]

The 3X points on Marriott fees is pretty valuable to me, too. I don't necessarily value 32K points at $600-$1,000, unless I transfer to Hyatt hotels or to an airline for a business or first class seat to somewhere overseas.

Hyatt makes those hotel points very valuable. I would never transfer those points to IHG or Marriott because the value is just not there. Still trying to decide whether to apply for the new Marriott card, but we already have 3 hotel credit cards and stay mostly in timeshare, so having the Marriott card might be a waste.

Maybe you know something I don't know about the value of those points. I am trying to decide whether to pay my Vistana fees on my Starwood CC to get the 2X points and have to do the math on that one. With Starwood, I can still transfer to Amtrak for another great train ride in a private car. ~56,000 Starwood points gets a nice cabin with bed and private bathroom + all meals in one zone. That will all end soon.

Is there a deal with Marriott Rewards for Amtrak? I wonder what will happen to that Starwood card on 8/1.

5 weeks Hawaii Marriott is about $10.6K, which nets about 32K Chase Ultimate Rewards points (which I value between $600 and $1000)

 

[JIMinNC]

Let me explain in more detail.

Person X owns a timeshare week. (Deeded to keep it simple.) Person X rents it out for profit. That is the reason person X owns the timeshare.
The timeshare week was initially sold by a developer. The timeshare, in toto, is run by a HOA, which may, or may not, be controlled by the developer.
Developer built it, and then sold the week to person X, which ends the developer's, formal interest in the timeshare. The HOA thereafter controls the timeshare complex.

So far, so good?

The DC viewpoint. The DC owns large number of weeks. In this, it is just like an individual. (More weeks, of course, but still owns the weeks.) No DC points owner owns any week. They own access to the the pool of weeks.
The DC club is making a profit off of "renting out" the weeks it owns. Now it doesn't do it on a one-to-one weeks basis, nor are they one time rentals. They are, in essence, a recurring rental contract, to the points owners.
This rental process is different from the actual initial building of a timeshare, which is what a developer does. In this MVC is wearing both "hats". The functions are different, though.

Let me give a hypothetical example. If I were to buy up, say, 500 week intervals (or 5,000, or 50,000). I could set up my own points system, in competition to the DC program. Other that the fact I would not be planning to develop any new timeshares, what would the difference be? Why would my doing it be any different.

More to the point, what in the ownership documents allows MVC to set up a rental pool, while other owners are not? That is the question. . .

As I understand it, the commercial prohibition has never applied to the Developer (Marriott Ownership Resorts, Inc .) as they have been allowed to rent intervals they own/control since program inception. As I further read the DC Trust Agreement (as a lay-person, not a lawyer) it would seem that agreement attempts to assign the rights of the Developer to the Trust Manager (also Marriott Ownership Resorts, Inc.), so if the Developer has the right to rent, then so would the Trust Manager. I would expect that would be the language that MVC relies on to avoid a conflict with the commercial prohibition. If you were to set up your own points system, it would not be exempt from the prohibition because you are not the Developer/Trust Manager.

I too wish MVC would more strictly enforce the commercial prohibition. Mega-renters are also a problem at Maui Ocean Club in addition to Aruba.

 

[dioxide45]

Even if Marriott didn't want to or couldn't outlaw rentals outright, they certainly could inhibit it to where it may not be practical. The Reservation Procedures; updated in 2010 for each resort does allow the reservation agent (MVCI) to institute lottery systems for certain high demand weeks.