HICV vs. Wyndham

[skotrla]

Anybody have experience with both Wyndham and HICV? Considering trying out Wyndham and want to make sure I fully understand the program before I do.

I put together a comparison chart - let me know if I captured all of the major differences between the programs:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uf6xo4XB9BRvK_4L7iUYqZaRTLwKVaP1Xno5ZyW-S-M/edit?usp=sharing

-Scott
Owner, HICV Google+ Group

 

[skotrla]

I added the Wyndham and HICV resorts from the attached RCI points guide to the RCI tabs of the Wyndham and HICV consolidated points spreadsheets.

https://www.rci.com/static/docs/en_US/points-grid.pdf

HICV: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HB00pcN4u116afQyKAG1iumSddSaSTmC8rf5OoeN9Yc/edit?usp=sharing
Wyndham: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Qg7jd4yPldw-HPWaPkVk1E68KsETwoIuyBFnJPulkgw/edit?usp=sharing

I then added the annual RCI point totals next to the annual Wyndham and HICV point totals and compared the totals against all units that had RCI point values and just the cheapest 2BR unit from each resort that I was using previously (there was only a 3% difference - the numbers below are just the 2BRs, which work out slightly better for Wyndham).

Here are the results:

RCI: Wyndham = 1:3.34
RCI: HICV = 1:2.37

which makes

Wyndham:HICV = 3.34:2.37 = 1:0.71

Prior to finding this RCI Rosetta stone, I used median 2BR points values in Florida to determine that the median Florida properties were Orange Lake for HICV (7.2M) and Bonnet Creek/Sea Garden for Wyndham (9.1M) and was trying to determine whether the points difference was due to HICV points being more valuable than Wyndham points or the median Wyndham resort being valued higher than the median HICV resort. The annual RCI point values for these properties are 3.6M for HICV and 3.15M for Wyndham, which suggests that the HICV points are worth even more than Wyndham points than my initial analysis showed due to the median HICV resort being valued higher than the median Wyndham resort. That makes the scaled Wyndham point values for these properties 10.4M, and the ratio 1:0.69, which is very close to the program-wide numbers above.

This is extensible to other programs that have RCI point values in the chart above if anyone is interested in putting them into a spreadsheet.

I only buy HICV points units with maintenance in the $5-$6 - this makes the comparable range of Wyndham units $3.55-$4.26, which are pretty tough to find.

-Scott

 

[tschwa2]

I still don't understand how all your charts show a higher value for HICV and what that means. You also haven't factored in that it has been getting and will continue to get harder and harder to find HICV points on the resale market for a reasonable cost with MF's in the $5-$6 range. Only 3 resorts and now not even all of the contracts at those 3 resorts retain points upon resale. If HICV takes any of those 3 in as trade ins, they will deposit those in the trust so they will forever be out of potential owners hands. More and more people are aware that only those 3 resorts remain in points. Unlike 2 years ago when you could convert a larger non mandatory resale weeks contract for under $10,000, that now costs a lot more.

You can also only compare them in areas that have both HICV and Wyndham resorts available and even then if one of those locations are ones you aren't interested in then it doesn't matter.

Are you trying to justify in your mind that you made a good choice to go with HICV instead of Wyndham? If you like the locations than you did. Or are you trying to convince people so that they will look at what you have for sale and pay a higher buy in cost buying resale from you.

 

[skotrla]

I still don't understand how all your charts show a higher value for HICV and what that means. You also haven't factored in that it has been getting and will continue to get harder and harder to find HICV points on the resale market for a reasonable cost with MF's in the $5-$6 range. Only 3 resorts and now not even all of the contracts at those 3 resorts retain points upon resale. If HICV takes any of those 3 in as trade ins, they will deposit those in the trust so they will forever be out of potential owners hands. More and more people are aware that only those 3 resorts remain in points. Unlike 2 years ago when you could convert a larger non mandatory resale weeks contract for under $10,000, that now costs a lot more.

You can also only compare them in areas that have both HICV and Wyndham resorts available and even then if one of those locations are ones you aren't interested in then it doesn't matter.

Are you trying to justify in your mind that you made a good choice to go with HICV instead of Wyndham? If you like the locations than you did. Or are you trying to convince people so that they will look at what you have for sale and pay a higher buy in cost buying resale from you.

I'm trying to understand the relative value of Wyndham points compared to HICV points. I have a very good understanding of what HICV points are worth and what they cost and I am trying to use that knowledge to understand in what circumstances Wyndham is a comparable value.

This analysis shows that a 100K Wyndham stay would cost on average 71K in the HICV system - specific resorts and stays will always be be better or worse than the average both within the systems and between systems, but averages are a good baseline. (What the analysis actually shows is that the average 100K point RCI stay at a Wyndham resort would cost 334K Wyndham points, while the average 100K RCI stay at a HICV resort would cost 237K HICV points - this allows you to compare resort systems from the perspective of an RCI points owner who is not in either system).

This says nothing about availability, maintenance, or cost of those points - but it allows you to see what comparable ranges in one system would look like in the other system.

Once you know what points are worth, it's possible to objectively compare whether paying x1 $/1K in initial price for points with y1 $/1K in annual maintenance is a better deal than paying x2 $/1K in initial price for points with y2 $/1K in annual maintenance and what the payback period is for buying lower maintenance units.

-Scott

 

[tschwa2]

What they are worth to someone using the system to generate rental income? What it is worth to someone wanting to stay at a particular resort? If someone wants to stay at Bonnet Creek owning HICV would be worth $0. Same if someone wants to stay at OL than owning Wyndham would have no value. For someone who doesn't care and just wants a nice 2 BR in Orlando they have 100's of choices and probably will go with whoever is lower when they want to go. For people who are looking to rent from someone else and aren't picky doesn't give a rat's arse how many points or what the MF are for those points.

They are different currencies. Saying that British Pounds are worth 12.5% less than Euros and 2.65% more than USD means nothing except to those who engage in currency speculations. I guess it could mean something to someone from a particular country if they are not picky and are trying to decide what country they want to vacation in. That is pretty far down on my list when deciding if I wanted to go to Singapore or Senagal or Austria for a vacation. Where I want to go and how much transportation cost to get there matters more. The fact that my "average lunch" would cost me 22% more in one area than the other. If I were planing on a stay of 1-6 months, then yes but for the "average" American vacationer who vacations a week or two per year then those types of percentages for accommodations within the vacation club are a lot less important than can I go where I want to go, what is the availability and can I afford it. Even for snowbirds who stay 6-12 weeks, while some are happy going to Orlando or Cape Canaveral for the winter, there are a bunch who want to get a lot further south and even if that means paying more are happy to do so. There are TUG members who have used RCI and a combination of other exchange companies and systems to stay in timeshares for 6 weeks to 12+ months and the number of points required and the value of those points again take a second or even third or fourth place to things like availability.

If your question is how much does it take to stay in an average Florida Resort through Wyndham vs an average Florida resort through HICV again who cares unless you are trying to keep your stays within the average of each system. With Wyndham in Florida, I would have my choice of 5 areas and 15 resorts. HICV has 4 areas and 5 resorts. If you want to have an ocean view of some kind while in Florida, Wyndham has far more choices and availability than HICV. So you can crunch those numbers all you want the "value" won't be revealed by those numbers unless again you don't care where you go and that isn't the way it works for most people looking to vacation or buy into a vacation club.

 

[skotrla]

What they are worth to someone using the system to generate rental income? What it is worth to someone wanting to stay at a particular resort? If someone wants to stay at Bonnet Creek owning HICV would be worth $0. Same if someone wants to stay at OL than owning Wyndham would have no value. For someone who doesn't care and just wants a nice 2 BR in Orlando they have 100's of choices and probably will go with whoever is lower when they want to go. For people who are looking to rent from someone else and aren't picky doesn't give a rat's arse how many points or what the MF are for those points.

They are different currencies. Saying that British Pounds are worth 12.5% less than Euros and 2.65% more than USD means nothing except to those who engage in currency speculations. I guess it could mean something to someone from a particular country if they are not picky and are trying to decide what country they want to vacation in. That is pretty far down on my list when deciding if I wanted to go to Singapore or Senagal or Austria for a vacation. Where I want to go and how much transportation cost to get there matters more. The fact that my "average lunch" would cost me 22% more in one area than the other. If I were planing on a stay of 1-6 months, then yes but for the "average" American vacationer who vacations a week or two per year then those types of percentages for accommodations within the vacation club are a lot less important than can I go where I want to go, what is the availability and can I afford it. Even for snowbirds who stay 6-12 weeks, while some are happy going to Orlando or Cape Canaveral for the winter, there are a bunch who want to get a lot further south and even if that means paying more are happy to do so. There are TUG members who have used RCI and a combination of other exchange companies and systems to stay in timeshares for 6 weeks to 12+ months and the number of points required and the value of those points again take a second or even third or fourth place to things like availability.

If your question is how much does it take to stay in an average Florida Resort through Wyndham vs an average Florida resort through HICV again who cares unless you are trying to keep your stays within the average of each system. With Wyndham in Florida, I would have my choice of 5 areas and 15 resorts. HICV has 4 areas and 5 resorts. If you want to have an ocean view of some kind while in Florida, Wyndham has far more choices and availability than HICV. So you can crunch those numbers all you want the "value" won't be revealed by those numbers unless again you don't care where you go and that isn't the way it works for most people looking to vacation or buy into a vacation club.

Currency is a great example - while relative value is not the only consideration, it's a good baseline. It's helpful to know that pounds are worth more than dollars. All hotel rooms in London are priced in pounds, and while that's the only way to rent a room in London, knowing how a pound compares to a dollar is helpful for planning purposes. Without being able to look up the exchange rate between pounds and dollars, you'd have no idea whether a room that costs 200 pounds or a sandwich that costs 20 pounds is reasonable or not for the quality of the room and the sandwich.

I am trying to answer the question of Wyndham renting vs. buying - for a few 100K per year of HICV travel, buying the right units is definitely a better deal than renting. I'm still not 100% sure on Wyndham, but I think I am getting close.

-Scott

 

[Jimster]

Personally I don’t think any of this makes any sense. I assume you are talking about properties in Bonnet Creek and OL. My first comment is that Orlando is overbuilt. There are so many places to stay you can not compete effectively. If you buy either of these for the purpose of renting it is a losing proposition or in the best scenario making chump change for a great deal of work. If you want to make money renting then buy the Outer Banks. Here the demand is high and the available facilities is low. There are other similarly situated properties.

Second, part of the value of the OL system is the ability to use your points at other resorts either thru RCI or internally. This is not accounted for. If you buy HIVC you can stay in LV or Scottsdale which are both more valuable than OL. To make any sense of this you would have to throw those possibilities into the mix. Also the time of the year makes a big difference in how far your points go. I don’t know what Wyndham has but I will say Rancho Vistoso in Tucson is very nice. It might be an adequate revenue producing revenue source.

Third, you are still dealing with different properties! OL has a water park. OL has 4 different HOA and 4 different locations. Both OL and BC are close to Disney but then so are the on-site Disney hotels and campgrounds. If you OL price goes too high then they opt for the on-site locations.

OL lets you use your points to stay in IHG properties around the world. I assume Wyndham does too but what do you get? I can stay at an Interconntintal in Manila, Singapore or Paris with IHG points. With Wyndham you get to stay at a Days Inn or Ramada Inn if you dare.

This is a classic case of comparing apples and oranges or rather more like comparing pizzas with telephones. I am sure they must have things in common but it doesn’t help ie Is $50 less maintenance fee off set by a lower change fee? There are too many variables and too many off-sets.

 

[skotrla]

Personally I don’t think any of this makes any sense. I assume you are talking about properties in Bonnet Creek and OL. My first comment is that Orlando is overbuilt. There are so many places to stay you can not compete effectively. If you buy either of these for the purpose of renting it is a losing proposition or in the best scenario making chump change for a great deal of work. If you want to make money renting then buy the Outer Banks. Here the demand is high and the available facilities is low. There are other similarly situated properties.

Second, part of the value of the OL system is the ability to use your points at other resorts either thru RCI or internally. This is not accounted for. If you buy HIVC you can stay in LV or Scottsdale which are both more valuable than OL. To make any sense of this you would have to throw those possibilities into the mix. Also the time of the year makes a big difference in how far your points go. I don’t know what Wyndham has but I will say Rancho Vistoso in Tucson is very nice. It might be an adequate revenue producing revenue source.

Third, you are still dealing with different properties! OL has a water park. OL has 4 different HOA and 4 different locations. Both OL and BC are close to Disney but then so are the on-site Disney hotels and campgrounds. If you OL price goes too high then they opt for the on-site locations.

OL lets you use your points to stay in IHG properties around the world. I assume Wyndham does too but what do you get? I can stay at an Interconntintal in Manila, Singapore or Paris with IHG points. With Wyndham you get to stay at a Days Inn or Ramada Inn if you dare.

This is a classic case of comparing apples and oranges or rather more like comparing pizzas with telephones. I am sure they must have things in common but it doesn’t help ie Is $50 less maintenance fee off set by a lower change fee? There are too many variables and too many off-sets.

I'm talking about the average value of a HICV point vs. a Wyndham point - the currency conversion rate. While the currencies are not directly convertable between each other, a RCI points owner that makes a 100K reservation in each system will get a reservation worth some number of HICV or Wyndham points. Just like specific resorts and seasons are a better value within the HICV and Wyndham systems, the same thing is true with the RCI conversions, but the average suggests that to find reservations that were the same number of Wyndham and HICV points, you'd have to cherry pick a very cheap (in terms of Wyndham points) stay and a very expensive (in terms of HICV points) stay because on average Wyndham points are worth 71% of what HICV points are worth. The Florida examples were from an earlier analysis I did that said the median Florida 2BR Wyndham stay was more points than the median 2BR HICV stay, but the problem was that there was no objective way to compare resort quality. Was the Wyndham resort more points because it was nicer or in higher demand or was it more points because the currency is weaker? I used the RCI tables to normalize the results.

I'm not suggesting that RCI is a good way to book because there is such limited availability - what I am trying to determine is what price Wyndham points have to be in order to be a better value than renting. Because timeshare rentals have such an inefficient market, it's very difficult to price reservations in dollars across many resorts, units size, and seasons. RCI provides a way to look at this pricing data in volume in a way besides the native currencies of HICV and Wyndham points.

Exchanging HICV points for IHG points is a poor value and doesn't figure into the relative value of Wyndham and IHG points.

I am an HICV Elite owner, but I continue to buy all HICV units in the $5-$6/1K range below a certain price because they are a good value, but I don't touch any HICV units with maintenance in the $7/1K range. I am trying to calibrate my range for Wyndham. Based on my RCI analysis, I'm homing in on a range of $3.50-$4.20/1K, but I don't think $3.50 is even possible. Assuming I've got the right conversion factor, expanding my Wyndham range doesn't make sense without also expanding my HICV range.

As I've said before, I am a big believer in going all in - either timeshare ownership in a system has profit potential and you can buy more to subsidize your stays (if that's something you have the interest in doing) or it doesn't. If it doesn't, then renting someone's extra points is likely the better solution for most people. I'm the same kind of person who buys football season tickets and sells 7 games to subsidize the 8th game.

-Scott

 

[youppi]

I don't know if this can help, but Diamond Resorts provide a conversion table from different point systems to their DRI points.
From the link below,
1 HICV point = 0.07 DRI point
1Wyndam point = 0.05 DRI point
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z9bqj8gjgc833uy/club_combination.jpg?dl=0

 

[nuwermj]

I added the Wyndham and HICV resorts from the attached RCI points guide to the RCI tabs of the Wyndham and HICV consolidated points spreadsheets.

Very nice work. Thanks for sharing all the details.

 

[Sandy VDH]

I own both HICV and Wyndham.

I own a lot more Wyndham than HICV. I didn't really buy HICV, I sort of fell into it. I bought a resale in Vegas 15+ years ago, when Vegas did NOT have a lot of units, and it was more demand than supply. That has dramatically changed over the last decade. However I was fortunate enough to purchase a resale $300 unit that eventually became purchased by HICV, and they offered us to join HICV for $100 fee. So I got into HICV by accident, for $400.

Since they have purchased Silverleaf, and I live in TX, so I use almost all of my HICV points for stays in TX, either at the Silverleaf properties, or at the Escapes in Galveston that they purchased and converted.

I also like the Global Choice option that HICV has, for a $75 fee I can convert NON-RCI Points weeks into HICV points ( i have two of these and have enough TPUs already). So this way I can take other ownerships I have, and use it on something other than TPUs. So it is like getting HICV points without having to purchase another property. So I have used it for the first time this year.

I am typing this from the HICV Galveston Beach Club, I picked up a 2 day stay over July 4th, but it may be a wash as it has been raining since last night.

I own a Wyndham VIP Platinum account, which I get much better use of with all the discounts and free upgrades I manage to obtain from my VIP status. With Wyndham VIP Platinum at 60 days prior to check In I get units at 50% off and Free upgrades to larger size units if available. Now I get these perks via a convoluted path to VIP that is NO longer allowed, but I got it written into my contract, and that has been tested and proven to hold up at Wyndham. I wouldn't recommend anyone buy from Wyndham to get these perks, but I have them and for far less than they can be obtained retail. So if I got them I will use them. But trying not to include VIP perks, lets look at what it costs from HICV vs Wyndham, at least my experiences.

In general, I find that HICV is slightly more expensive and I get slightly less for my usage than wyndham.

RESERVATION FEES: I get better value for my exchanges through Wyndham. Perhaps it is because I get less perks with HICV but I also finds that the fees are higher. Reservations for Wyndham are $19 but I get unlimited free transactions with my VIP so that is $0 for me. However HICV reservations are $64. Even without VIP $64 vs 19 is a big difference.

CANCELLATION POLICY: Wyndham allows you to cancel and get a full refund if you cancel 15 days prior to checkin. HICV policy is 90 days out you can cancel with a full refund. HICV policy is 90+ days 100% refund, 89-61 75%, 60 - 31 50% refund, 30 or less 0% refund. So 90 vs 15 days to get a 100% refund on cancellation.

INSURANCE: With HICV, you can buy insurance on your reservation to save your points if you have to cancel beyond the cancellation policy period. HICV charges $35. Wyndham just introduced this as well, it is $49. So between insurance and reservation fees you can pay $99 with HICV and only $68 for Wyndham. So Wyndham provides better cancellation policy without insurance and if you feel you have to get insurance it is still cheaper at Wyndham.

MF $$: I can't say that this is an average or best comparison, but it is my comparison. My MF on my HICV are about 40% higher per Point than my Wyndham. In this $$ I also add all my program fees and other annual charges. Because I have more Wyndham points, these fees gets distributed over more points, thus reducing their impact.

GUEST CERTIFICATE FEES: You get 15 with HICV. After that it is $199 per. You get 2 with Wyndham if you buy resale ( I think), they are $129 after that. I get 30 Free with Wyndham, so for me this is a draw. For resale others may find HICV has the edge.

LOCATIONS: Wyndham has way more locations than HICV. HICV 26, and Wyndham (not including Club pass) 130.

POINTS REQUIRED: I think most of the discussion above has been about the amount of points needed to book a stay, as since I think enough has been said about that I will bow out.

 

[skotrla]

I don't know if this can help, but Diamond Resorts provide a conversion table from different point systems to their DRI points.
From the link below,
1 HICV point = 0.07 DRI point
1Wyndam point = 0.05 DRI point
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z9bqj8gjgc833uy/club_combination.jpg?dl=0

This is great - thanks! This completely aligns with the analysis I did, and is a great independent validation.

-Scott

 

[Sandy VDH]

skotria does the resale purchase of points from the 3 locations (don't recall the exact locations, but just remember that there are 3) that are automatically part of HICV without any conversion, count toward Elite (of whatever HICV calls it) levels.

 

[skotrla]

skotria does the resale purchase of points from the 3 locations (don't recall the exact locations, but just remember that there are 3) that are automatically part of HICV without any conversion, count toward Elite (of whatever HICV calls it) levels.

No, resale purchases do not count towards HICV status. The 3 points resorts are Lake Geneva, Smoky Mountain, and South Beach.

-Scott

 

[Sandy VDH]

So then I have no incentive to add more HICV points via a HICV resale purchase. As

a) I would own another timeshare.
b) I would have more MFs.
c) I would not receive any HICV status perks.
d) Global Choice offers me a way to flexibly add more points to HICV with weeks I already own. Sure I have to pay $75 in order to do it, but in the long run, that is a better ROI for me, as both of the weeks I can deposit in HICV have mid $400 MFs which are really low. For that I get 100K and 80K HICV points.

 

[skotrla]

So then I have no incentive to add more HICV points via a HICV resale purchase. As

a) I would own another timeshare.
b) I would have more MFs.
c) I would not receive any HICV status perks.
d) Global Choice offers me a way to flexibly add more points to HICV with weeks I already own. Sure I have to pay $75 in order to do it, but in the long run, that is a better ROI for me, as both of the weeks I can deposit in HICV have mid $400 MFs which are really low. For that I get 100K and 80K HICV points.

At the right maintenance cost, global choice is a good deal. Assuming your total is $900 for maintenance and $150 for fees, you are at $5.83/1k in maintenance for 180k points, which is the same as lake Geneva.

- Scott

 

[Sandy VDH]

At the right maintenance cost, global choice is a good deal. Assuming your total is $900 for maintenance and $150 for fees, you are at $5.83/1k in maintenance for 180k points, which is the same as lake Geneva.

- Scott

yes, without me having to buy Lake Geneva. Which is my point.