Hawaii Lodging Tax

[Luanne]

Exactly, I can choose not to because I do not own there. Someone who owns property there should not have this tax imposed on them.

We own. We pay the tax when we stay. We don't let it bother us. Hawaii is worth it.

 

[Seaport104]

The TAT. IF I owned there, I would be very unhappy with the state of Hawaii putting that tax on my owned unit.

TAT is collected even if you own there. It is not a resort fee but a government tax the resort is required to collect and remit to the government. Aruba has a similar tax and owners pay it even when using their own week. I read somewhere that the US Virgin Islands just implemented a similar tax on timeshare stays.

I just came back from Hilton Lagoon Tower and they charged the following daily TAT tax

Studio $5.33
2 BR $11.75
3 BR $17.76

 

[Tamaradarann]

Taxation with out representation? I think this was one of the causes of a little war back in 1776. UNLESS, did the timeshare owners have a vote and agree to pay this tax?

As I stated above the resort fees are on non owners exchanging into a resort and the timeshare owners love it. However, the occupancy tax was levied by the State of Hawaii on ALL TIMESHARE OCCUPANCY. The timeshare owners had no say in the tax. The citizens of Hawaii love it.

 

[Sapper]

As I stated above the resort fees are on non owners exchanging into a resort and the timeshare owners love it. However, the occupancy tax was levied by the State of Hawaii on ALL TIMESHARE OCCUPANCY. The timeshare owners had no say in the tax. The citizens of Hawaii love it.

No one is talking about resort fees. We are talking about tax levied against owners with out their consent.

"Taxation with out representation is tyranny"
- James Otis, 1761

 

[brp]

No one is talking about resort fees. We are talking about tax levied against owners with out their consent.

I thought that the Association (in which anyone can participate) were the representatives in this case. Also, this tax was likely in the documents for the property purchase and (assuming that this is the case), wouldn't singing those documents equate to consent?

Cheers.

 

[Arimaas]

Totally understand where you are coming from, @Sapper. I have a hard time though relating it to the American revolution however, lol. Talk to any residents of DC about taxation without representation.

You are already paying property tax on your ownership, why another tax? It sucks, but I guess they do it because They can and it makes sense for the residents (which 1 in 6 live in poverty) to pass the tax on to the tourists who can probably afford the $11/night tax. I guess with the proliferation of a timeshares, it makes sense, even if you are a property owner. Let’s be honest, even though you have a deed and are an owner at a timeshare, it’s not quite the same as owning a vacation home. I know we are “owners” but are we Really “owners”?

Btw Americans weren’t all that nice to the native Hawaiians when we started settling the islands. Maybe we shouldn’t cry tyranny.

 

[1Kflyerguy]

The Hawaii lodging tax is small enough that it does not really bother me. As for the taxation without representation issue, that happens all the times. I stayed in New York last month, there was a tax on my Hotel room and i did not vote for that. Same as sales tax if i drive to a different state or even county. Airports and rental cars often have taxes levied to pay for the facilities or even general city funds.

Even with property taxes, if you own a vacation house or timeshare in a different location than where you live, you don't vote on those taxes.

 

[Sapper]

I thought that the Association (in which anyone can participate) were the representatives in this case. Also, this tax was likely in the documents for the property purchase and (assuming that this is the case), wouldn't singing those documents equate to consent?

Cheers.

Beyond the closing docs stating you are on the hook for taxes, I doubt they outline what the specific taxes are or what they go for (ie, it's not going to break out specific tax bonds, school taxes, etc) in the purchase docs. Besides, most of the timeshares were there long before the TAT as it's relatively recent (I think under ten years old).

 

[Sapper]

Totally understand where you are coming from, @Sapper. I have a hard time though relating it to the American revolution however, lol. Talk to any residents of DC about taxation without representation.

You are already paying property tax on your ownership, why another tax? It sucks, but I guess they do it because They can and it makes sense for the residents (which 1 in 6 live in poverty) to pass the tax on to the tourists who can probably afford the $11/night tax. I guess with the proliferation of a timeshares, it makes sense, even if you are a property owner. Let’s be honest, even though you have a deed and are an owner at a timeshare, it’s not quite the same as owning a vacation home. I know we are “owners” but are we Really “owners”?

Btw Americans weren’t all that nice to the native Hawaiians when we started settling the islands. Maybe we shouldn’t cry tyranny.

I get it, the revolution was a long time ago... however, that does not mean that the founding principles of this country no longer matter.

The tax is because the government can impose it with impunity.

So... this is revenge on the mainlanders? HAHA, I kind of like that idea, but for it to be correct, they would not be charging the owners (as the owners already share a stake in the community), but doubling or tripling the tax on tourists... which I'd be ok with.

 

[Sapper]

The Hawaii lodging tax is small enough that it does not really bother me. As for the taxation without representation issue, that happens all the times. I stayed in New York last month, there was a tax on my Hotel room and i did not vote for that. Same as sales tax if i drive to a different state or even county. Airports and rental cars often have taxes levied to pay for the facilities or even general city funds.

Even with property taxes, if you own a vacation house or timeshare in a different location than where you live, you don't vote on those taxes.

SO... you OWN in New York? NO, then your argument does not fit the conversation.

Your broad statement is not correct. There are a number of states which allow suffrage for non-residents. To see where a lawsuit upheld the voting rights of non-residents, please see May Vs Town of Mountain Village (1996).

I am guessing if things continue like they are in Hawaii, at some point there will be a hungry lawyer who will create a class action lawsuit. Hopefully it will have the same results as the one cited above.

 

[Arimaas]

I get it, the revolution was a long time ago... however, that does not mean that the founding principles of this country no longer matter.

The tax is because the government can impose it with impunity.

So... this is revenge on the mainlanders? HAHA, I kind of like that idea, but for it to be correct, they would not be charging the owners (as the owners already share a stake in the community), but doubling or tripling the tax on tourists... which I'd be ok with.

Lol, not revenge. But hard to cry tyranny on an $11 a day tax aimed at foreigners especially given how the Haoles have treated the natives.

I understand where you are coming from, and I appreciate the sentiment. I too don't want to pay anymore money considering it's a timeshare and I own it. But I wouldn't quite consider it taxation passed with out impunity. Go look up the legislative history of the tax law. I'm sure it was voted on by the elected officials of Hawaii. If you're a Hawaii owner and the jurisdiction allows non resident property owners to register to vote, register to vote there and make sure you're there or have an absente ballet for the next election. Just don't vote in the same election (e.g. Presidential) in two different jurisdictions. No one is telling you you can't get your representation. There's no difference between this and a tax passed on a public utility used by those living in Hawaii.

IMHO, it's only taxation without representation if you're a resident and you don't get the right to vote. Non residents are not garunteed voting rights.


PS found this paper online. Pretty heavy into the economics formulas. http://uhero.hawaii.edu/assets/UHERO_WP2008-02.pdf

 

[geist1223]

Many States, Counties, and/or Cities have TOT's. This is not only in Hawaii. It is not a new phenomen. Some Worldmarks have TOT's most do not. Some in California do some do not. All Worldmark's in Washington have TOT's. Just like some States have a Sales Tax and some do not. Do you also feel that sales tax is a tax without representation. Some States have an income tax some do not.

 

[Sapper]

Lol, not revenge. But hard to cry tyranny on an $11 a day tax aimed at foreigners especially given how the Haoles have treated the natives.

I understand where you are coming from, and I appreciate the sentiment. I too don't want to pay anymore money considering it's a timeshare and I own it. But I wouldn't quite consider it taxation passed with out impunity. Go look up the legislative history of the tax law. I'm sure it was voted on by the elected officials of Hawaii. If you're a Hawaii owner, register to vote there and make sure you're there or have an absente ballet for the next election. Just don't vote in the same election (e.g. Presidential) in two different jurisdictions. No one is telling you you can't get your representation. There's no difference between this and a tax passed on a public utility used by those living in Hawaii.

It's not really the dollar figure that is irritating me, but the ethical conflict that an American government has levied a tax with out consent, and specifically targeted a group who it knows cannot currently do anything about it because of a disenfranchised status. It feels wrong.

 

[Arimaas]

It's not really the dollar figure that is irritating me, but the ethical conflict that an American government has levied a tax with out consent, and specifically targeted a group who it knows cannot currently do anything about it because of a disenfranchised status. It feels wrong.

Without who's consent? There must be some legislative history behind it. Someone had to propose it and vote on it. It just wasn't you or me. Btw from the reading it's supposed to sunset in 2030 (right......). And there is something you can do about it, don't visit Hawaii. Personally, I don't like the tax, but think they are wise. Using their natural resources (tourism) to generate funding for their public transportation. The residents are thrilled I'm sure.

 

[Sapper]

Many States, Counties, and/or Cities have TOT's. This is not only in Hawaii. It is not a new phenomen. Some Worldmarks have TOT's most do not. Some in California do some do not. All Worldmark's in Washington have TOT's. Just like some States have a Sales Tax and some do not. Do you also feel that sales tax is a tax without representation. Some States have an income tax some do not.

My understanding is Hawaii stands alone on the taxing of individuals who own deeded timeshares in this specific way. I do not know the specific example of Worldmark, but my guess is that Worldmark is a points program where you do not own the specific deed in the property.

Your other tax examples fail because the tax is at the consent of the governed. The people have allowed a sales tax or income tax to exist. The owners of Hawaii timeshares did not give their consent.

 

[Sapper]

Without who's consent? There must be some legislative history behind it. Someone had to propose it and vote on it. It just wasn't you or me. Btw from the reading it's supposed to sunset in 2030 (right......). And there is something you can do about it, don't visit Hawaii. Personally, I don't like the tax, but think they are wise. Using their natural resources (tourism) to generate funding for their public transportation. The residents are thrilled I'm sure.

Consent of the property owners. Yeah, I'm sure the locals, or their elected officials, wrote it up and voted it into existence. Because the property owners cannot vote, the elected folk knew it would be ok. Their jobs are secure, and it gains additional revenue with out taxing the people who can vote them out. What this really comes down to, and I have spent the last several hours reading about it, is the disenfranchisement of non-resident property owners. It's a bigger issue than I had originally realized when I wrote my first message last night. I have learned a lot through this reading, and feel like this will be an issue for our country as we continue to grow, increase economic wealth, and also as technology allows us to move more easily as a population.

Below is a link which sums up what I have been trying to argue here. I don't have the time to continue the discussion, so will not continue to post on this topic. Thanks.

https://scholarlycommons.law.hofstr....cgi?article=1828&context=faculty_scholarship

 

[Luanne]

My understanding is Hawaii stands alone on the taxing of individuals who own deeded timeshares in this specific way. I do not know the specific example of Worldmark, but my guess is that Worldmark is a points program where you do not own the specific deed in the property.

Your other tax examples fail because the tax is at the consent of the governed. The people have allowed a sales tax or income tax to exist. The owners of Hawaii timeshares did not give their consent.

I don't remember the entire history of the TAT, but your comment about timeshare owners not giving their consent is a bit odd. There was a vote, I believe, but since most timeshare owners are not residents of Hawaii, we couldn't vote. Just like I can't vote on measures in other states, or even cities within my own state, that might affect me when I visit. Even if timeshare owners had been allowed to vote it's probable the tax would have passed. Still taxation without representation?

 

[eabishop2]

... To see where a lawsuit upheld the voting rights of non-residents, please see May Vs Town of Mountain Village (1996).

I am guessing if things continue like they are in Hawaii, at some point there will be a hungry lawyer who will create a class action lawsuit. Hopefully it will have the same results as the one cited above.

I took your suggestion and read the case you referenced. I think you may need to read it again to get a better understanding of the issue. The lawsuit did not "uphold the voting rights of non-residents". The non-residents have no such right, it was never asserted in this case and therefore it was not upheld. At issue was the right of the resident voters under Colorado state law, the Colorado Constitution and legal precedent surrounding the Due Process clause of the 14th amendment to the US Constitution to EXPAND the franchise to non-resident property owners in certain situations. The resident voters CHOSE to do this, and their right to do that was upheld in May vs Town of Mountain Village. This is not a trivial distinction.

Equating your requirement to pay a tax passed by the duly elected government of a state where you do not live but chose to buy property with tyranny is the height of hyperbole and does not stand up to any level of critical analysis.

"Class action" lawsuits have nothing to do with voting rights, taxation or tyranny.

 

[dioxide45]

It's not really the dollar figure that is irritating me, but the ethical conflict that an American government has levied a tax with out consent, and specifically targeted a group who it knows cannot currently do anything about it because of a disenfranchised status. It feels wrong.

You can do something about it. Either sell your timeshare weeks, or don't go to Hawaii. If they increase the tax high enough, they will drive away tourists. Right now they do it because they can get away with it and people will pay it. It may not be that way forever.

 

[Tamaradarann]

The Hawaii lodging tax is small enough that it does not really bother me. As for the taxation without representation issue, that happens all the times. I stayed in New York last month, there was a tax on my Hotel room and i did not vote for that. Same as sales tax if i drive to a different state or even county. Airports and rental cars often have taxes levied to pay for the facilities or even general city funds.

Even with property taxes, if you own a vacation house or timeshare in a different location than where you live, you don't vote on those taxes.

These are two different perspectives on the TAT: A number of years ago I sent a note to the Hawaii Legislature House member from the Waikiki area protesting the TAT. My position on it was that the timeshare already pays property tax like a whole owner so that the TAT shouldn't even exists. That position is from the property owners perspective and I believe it has some validity.

However, this is another point of view. Timeshares are usually looked at as temporary housing similar to hotels or short term rentals which timeshare salespeople use as the cost/benefit reason to buy. The hotel tax in Hawaii, which short term rentals also have to pay is 14%. If timeshare occupants had to pay 14% of the value of the accommodations that they stay in instead of the $5-15 per night that they do it would be about $42/night for a Studio valued at $300/night to $210 for a 3 BR valued at $1500/night.

 

[dioxide45]

However, this is another point of view. Timeshares are usually looked at as temporary housing similar to hotels or short term rentals which timeshare salespeople use as the cost/benefit reason to buy. The hotel tax in Hawaii, which short term rentals also have to pay is 14%. If timeshare occupants had to pay 14% of the value of the accommodations that they stay in instead of the $5-15 per night that they do it would be about $42/night for a Studio valued at $300/night to $210 for a 3 BR valued at $1500/night.

You better delete this part, you are giving the state of Hawaii too many ideas...

 

[Arimaas]

Consent of the property owners. Yeah, I'm sure the locals, or their elected officials, wrote it up and voted it into existence. Because the property owners cannot vote, the elected folk knew it would be ok. Their jobs are secure, and it gains additional revenue with out taxing the people who can vote them out. What this really comes down to, and I have spent the last several hours reading about it, is the disenfranchisement of non-resident property owners. It's a bigger issue than I had originally realized when I wrote my first message last night. I have learned a lot through this reading, and feel like this will be an issue for our country as we continue to grow, increase economic wealth, and also as technology allows us to move more easily as a population.

Below is a link which sums up what I have been trying to argue here. I don't have the time to continue the discussion, so will not continue to post on this topic. Thanks.

https://scholarlycommons.law.hofstr....cgi?article=1828&context=faculty_scholarship

Lol I read enough 40 page legal briefs in law school. I’m gonna skip this one. I know you’re not replying anymore, but just wanted to say I don’t think this “problem” is on many people’s radar. Between homelessness, opioid addiction, gun violence, etc. I’m sure the money non resident property owners pay for the luxury of staying in their timeshare is not quite the top of anyone’s priority list.

As an aside, what the government will end up doing anyway is passing some bill that says a fractional property ownership isn’t considered a property owner for voting rights (and honestly shouldn’t be. You occupy a studio - 3br apartment for 1/52 of a year (and some years you don’t even make it there) - you really think you share a vested interest with those residents who send their kids to school there, drive the local roads, shop at the store, call 9-1-1, use public transit, etc).

 

[CiCi]

In looking at my upcoming reservations in Hawaii, there is a “Resort Update” at the top of the screen informing me, “The state of Hawaii assesses a lodging tax to guests staying at these resorts. A deposit of $250 for incidentals is required at check in.”

Does anyone know anything more about these taxes? Are they $250 or will I get some of that back?

I really don’t want to pay $750 for the three reservations I have and am a bit upset that I wasn’t notified when I booked the reservations.

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
CiCi


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Thanks everyone for the great responses.

We just returned and ended up being charged about $10/day tax on all of the reservations, which was fine.

CiCi


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Tamaradarann]

Thanks everyone for the great responses.

We just returned and ended up being charged about $10/day tax on all of the reservations, which was fine.

CiCi


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

$10/day is a relatively small amount when compared to what I am going to put forth. I have been looking at a possible 3 day quick trip to Atlantic City which is relatively easy drive from where we live. The advertised price is $89/night at Caesars Resort and Casino which is right on the Boardwalk in June. That sounded great. $89 X 3 is $267. Well after the hotel tax and resort fees it came out to be $402. That is $135 extra for 3 nights or $45/night extra. To me that is something to complain about and we are not booking so the room can stay empty.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

Lol I read enough 40 page legal briefs in law school. I’m gonna skip this one. I know you’re not replying anymore, but just wanted to say I don’t think this “problem” is on many people’s radar. Between homelessness, opioid addiction, gun violence, etc. I’m sure the money non resident property owners pay for the luxury of staying in their timeshare is not quite the top of anyone’s priority list.

As an aside, what the government will end up doing anyway is passing some bill that says a fractional property ownership isn’t considered a property owner for voting rights (and honestly shouldn’t be. You occupy a studio - 3br apartment for 1/52 of a year (and some years you don’t even make it there) - you really think you share a vested interest with those residents who send their kids to school there, drive the local roads, shop at the store, call 9-1-1, use public transit, etc).

But that isn't correct. For the period of the stay, you are using the local roads, shopping at the local stores, using public transport, and (hopefully not) using 9-1-1. TANSTAAFL.

If Hawaii had rolled the tax into the property tax, nobody would be complaining. (Nobody would be noticing.) Separating it out was bad PR. I consider it a PR issue, not a voting rights issue. I volunteered for taxation without representation when I bought a Hawaiian timeshare, eyes open and fully aware.