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Disney really is the best

dagger1

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As some of the more knowledgeable TUG members like to say, "the value of a timeshare is in its use."

If you want to be onsite at WDW, there's only one game in town and they won't sell you the land underneath, regardless (unless you pony up several million to buy in at the Golden Oak development.) DVC is a niche product that has an appeal to those with a bit of a Disney obsession. Even if it doesn't fit the constraints for your definition of "real estate", it does have a financial value as an asset that has endured - making words like "buy" and "owner" completely appropriate. It will eventually hit a value of zero, which should not come as a surprise to anyone who is semi-conscious.

(But sure - it's kinda like how it's hard to understand why a poster who claims to have no interest in beating a dead horse keeps doing so in a forum for a timeshare system that they claim to have no interest in - "mild obsession" would again seem to be the most accurate answer...)[/QUOTE

Haha, no Mickey obsession, although we will be there in December. But obviously a nerve has been struck, so enjoy....
 

brianfox

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My wife and I chose Marriott weeks resale over DVC point resale mainly because Marriott was not an RTU timeshare. Well, that and the unreasonably high price of DVC points.

No matter how we sliced it, we couldn't see the "Deed extension" as anything other than a looming Special Assessment of 3x-5x MF that we knew about years in advance. I am basing that off what OKW owners paid for their extension.

Clearly the resale value of DVC points will diminish in value as the deed expiration draws nearer. And the resale value will jump back again when owner extends the deed. OKW resales are evidence of this. But it doesn't change the fact that the owner had a big assessment that a Marriott weeks owner would not have.

Am I missing something? I mean, clearly people are buying despite this. I guess it's Disney Magic.
 

Dean

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As some of the more knowledgeable TUG members like to say, "the value of a timeshare is in its use."

If you want to be onsite at WDW, there's only one game in town and they won't sell you the land underneath, regardless (unless you pony up several million to buy in at the Golden Oak development.) DVC is a niche product that has an appeal to those with a bit of a Disney obsession. Even if it doesn't fit the constraints for your definition of "real estate", it does have a financial value as an asset that has endured - making words like "buy" and "owner" completely appropriate. It will eventually hit a value of zero, which should not come as a surprise to anyone who is semi-conscious.

(But sure - it's kinda like how it's hard to understand why a poster who claims to have no interest in beating a dead horse keeps doing so in a forum for a timeshare system that they claim to have no interest in - "mild obsession" would again seem to be the most accurate answer...)
Charles, the issue with timeshares is you don't generally get more than you pay for but you often get a lot less. But understanding the system(s) helps you figure that out. Threads like this help more than just the posters, they helps others who read but don't post and often, who read later.
 

rhonda

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Am I missing something? I mean, clearly people are buying despite this. I guess it's Disney Magic.
Location, location, location.

Our purchase was driven largely to be w/in walking distance of the Dolphin/Swan Conference centers. The conference expected you to take advantage of 'on-campus housing' (discounted hotel rates at the Dolphin, Swan, Yacht Club and Beach Club) and had zero-tolerance for self-parking. So, walking distance was our limit and DVC was the only timeshare that fit that criteria. After nearly two decades of attending the conference, it has ended (technically: 'moved on to new locations' but no need to go into that ...). Now we get to use our points for other stuff ... like, um, vacation purposes. In this mode, location is still valuable as it means never driving when visiting WDW. We quite enjoy the Magical Express service: go direct from plane to bus to resort. We are happy to use Disney's transportation between parks, hotels, shopping, and dining. We've also appreciated some of the new properties added to the club since our purchase -- especially the Grand Cal and Aulani. And DVC gave me my "holy grail" of timesharing: The Manhattan Club over Thanksgiving for the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade. Yippie. Loved that.

For what it is worth, I'll either be 91 or long gone when my DVC expires. Neither the contract expiration nor diminished value in its last decade worry me.
 

chalee94

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My wife and I chose Marriott weeks resale over DVC point resale mainly because Marriott was not an RTU timeshare. Well, that and the unreasonably high price of DVC points.

For offsite stays in Orlando, Marriott is a great choice. I've stayed at most of the Marriotts in Orlando as well as Vegas, Newport Coast, St Kitts and Williamsburg (and several at Hilton Head). It's a great system and a great choice.

No matter how we sliced it, we couldn't see the "Deed extension" as anything other than a looming Special Assessment of 3x-5x MF that we knew about years in advance. I am basing that off what OKW owners paid for their extension.

I don't really expect other DVC resorts to do an extension. I would count on the years on the contract (and as Dean will tell you, maybe not even the last year or so of that) rather than hoping for an extension.

Clearly the resale value of DVC points will diminish in value as the deed expiration draws nearer. And the resale value will jump back again when owner extends the deed. But it doesn't change the fact that the owner had a big assessment that a Marriott weeks owner would not have.

The value of a DVC contract will hit zero at some point. But demand for onsite rooms at WDW keeps prices up for the time being.

Resale value for extended OKW contracts have yet to "jump back." There is a small premium of half or less of the $15 per pt that extenders might have paid for the additional years. Presumably, eventually there will be more of a gap.

As the Marriott resorts age, I suspect your calculations about special assessments will be a bit off. Sabal Palms is only 30 years old and how does it compare to newer resorts like Lakeshore Reserve? A major assessment in the next 20 years doesn't seem impossible. How much did the Vistana owners pay a few years ago to bring that resort back up to standard (seems like it was at least 1x-2x MFs)?

Am I missing something? I mean, clearly people are buying despite this. I guess it's Disney Magic.

If you want to be onsite at WDW, it's the best deal going. For timeshares onsite, it's the only deal going. (RCI trades seem to have gotten pretty limited, but might still work if you want SSR.)

IMO, posters on this website get much too prissy about RTUs vs perpetual. Most DVC owners and those considering DVC ownership are looking at what gets them the best deal for staying onsite at WDW every year or so. If you don't care about staying onsite at all, Marriott is a much better choice. But if someone really wants to stay onsite at WDW, owning MVC won't do them any good.
 

ljmiii

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I don't really expect other DVC resorts to do an extension. I would count on the years on the contract (and as Dean will tell you, maybe not even the last year or so of that) rather than hoping for an extension.
"Count on"...no. "Expect"...yes. This is (to say the least) an issue that is oft discussed in more Disney-centric forums. And I've read from reasonably reliable sources that at least as of last year neither WDW nor DVC knows what it will do about another extension.

That said...we do know a few things. The rollout for the OKW extension was something of a disaster. There are five resorts (six if you count OKW) that expire in 2042 so DVC is unlikely to demolish and reconstruct all of them at the same time. It is unlikely that most current owners would want (or be able to afford) a full 50 year extension of their lease at then current direct prices. And simply letting the contracts simultaneously expire for somewhere between a third and a half of DVC's customers would be a logistical and PR nightmare. DVC can only move so much inventory at at time....[re]selling that many timeshares all at once in the face of bad publicity just isn't going to happen.

So I expect that existing 2042 owners (and/or their heirs) will at some point be offered a 15-20 year extension. And perhaps one or two of the 2042 resorts will be blown up and replaced with larger resorts as part of a 'DVC 50th Anniversary' celebration. But I don't count on it in my planning.
 

Dean

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"Count on"...no. "Expect"...yes. This is (to say the least) an issue that is oft discussed in more Disney-centric forums. And I've read from reasonably reliable sources that at least as of last year neither WDW nor DVC knows what it will do about another extension.

That said...we do know a few things. The rollout for the OKW extension was something of a disaster. There are five resorts (six if you count OKW) that expire in 2042 so DVC is unlikely to demolish and reconstruct all of them at the same time. It is unlikely that most current owners would want (or be able to afford) a full 50 year extension of their lease at then current direct prices. And simply letting the contracts simultaneously expire for somewhere between a third and a half of DVC's customers would be a logistical and PR nightmare. DVC can only move so much inventory at at time....[re]selling that many timeshares all at once in the face of bad publicity just isn't going to happen.

So I expect that existing 2042 owners (and/or their heirs) will at some point be offered a 15-20 year extension. And perhaps one or two of the 2042 resorts will be blown up and replaced with larger resorts as part of a 'DVC 50th Anniversary' celebration. But I don't count on it in my planning.
I'd give it 50/50 as to it happening and less than 10% that it'll be reasonable for the membership to actually do so. I haven't seen any good rumors that it'll actually happen, just lots of speculation that they assume it would sometimes from reasonable people. The % of points involved is far less than 1/3
 

littlestar

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No matter how we sliced it, we couldn't see the "Deed extension" as anything other than a looming Special Assessment of 3x-5x MF that we knew about years in advance. I am basing that off what OKW owners paid for their extension.

Clearly the resale value of DVC points will diminish in value as the deed expiration draws nearer. And the resale value will jump back again when owner extends the deed. OKW resales are evidence of this. But it doesn't change the fact that the owner had a big assessment that a Marriott weeks owner would not have.

Am I missing something? I mean, clearly people are buying despite this. I guess it's Disney Magic.

There is risk with Marriott, too. There have been Marriott's that got special assessments. And there have been former Marriott's that lost their resort affiliation with Marriott. (We own both DVC and Marriott).
 
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mj2vacation

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There is risk with Marriott, too. There have been Marriott's that got special assessments. And there have been former Marriott's that lost their resort affiliation with Marriott. (We own both DVC and Marriott).

Marriott has so far only moved away from resorts that it acquired, not built. Swallowtail, Spicebush, and parts of the Vail resort.

It could happen, see the RItz Clubs in Jupiter and Aspen. My sense is that was owner driven not MVC driven.

As to DVC extensions, Boardwalk was close to happening. It was a different model to OKW. OKW was a cluster from nearly all aspects, but it was much more successful than you would think.
 

Lisa P

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Just wondering...

Some timeshare resorts have separate floors or buildings on campus with varied usage and ownership. Whole ownership units, nightly rental space, timeshare condos. Is there any reason that a timeshare developer/manager could not acquire sufficient points or floating weeks to re-designate the usage of some units or buildings? Could they start selling them as whole ownership condos or renovate them to better suit rental demand at the time? Or gut and renovate one building at a time to a "new resort" for new sales?
 

Dean

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Just wondering...

Some timeshare resorts have separate floors or buildings on campus with varied usage and ownership. Whole ownership units, nightly rental space, timeshare condos. Is there any reason that a timeshare developer/manager could not acquire sufficient points or floating weeks to re-designate the usage of some units or buildings? Could they start selling them as whole ownership condos or renovate them to better suit rental demand at the time? Or gut and renovate one building at a time to a "new resort" for new sales?
It would depend on the circumstances and set up of the club/timeshare. For DVC they will own them in their entirety except for OKW unless they are extended. For OKW it's an interesting discussion. Since OKW is likely to finish the 2042 conversion with DVD owning roughly half, they will obviously need a plan. They would reduce the size and use the rest for other things like college programs much like they did THV prior, they would resell, they could rent, pretty much anything. Any options not included in the POS as an immediate option would be an easy change that they've have control over.
 

Dean

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Marriott has so far only moved away from resorts that it acquired, not built. Swallowtail, Spicebush, and parts of the Vail resort.

It could happen, see the RItz Clubs in Jupiter and Aspen. My sense is that was owner driven not MVC driven.

As to DVC extensions, Boardwalk was close to happening. It was a different model to OKW. OKW was a cluster from nearly all aspects, but it was much more successful than you would think.
That's true, add Loon, Longboat, Saturday villas and the Caribbean resort to the list. However, they did threaten BeachPlace over a battler with the BOD related to refurbishements I understand and Aruba Surf Club has had some Rocky times as well. And Vail all components were at risk. Eventually we will see them move from something they built, Maybe Sunset Pointe.
 

chalee94

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As to DVC extensions, Boardwalk was close to happening. It was a different model to OKW. OKW was a cluster from nearly all aspects, but it was much more successful than you would think.

What was the planned model for BWV, hypothetically speaking?

I would have expected Disney to want to start over with BWV in particular to raise the point costs (especially for the standard view villas)...
 

Lisa P

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...simply letting the contracts simultaneously expire for somewhere between a third and a half of DVC's customers would be a logistical and PR nightmare. DVC can only move so much inventory at at time....[re]selling that many timeshares all at once in the face of bad publicity just isn't going to happen.
For OKW it's an interesting discussion. Since OKW is likely to finish the 2042 conversion with DVD owning roughly half, they will obviously need a plan.
This is what makes me wonder... so they could initiate a cheap buy back (ROFR) of points 5-15 years ahead, or whenever prices start falling as expiration nears. Contracts recouped earlier could feed projects to re-purpose or redesign/renovate resorts or sections of resorts. This could spread out their new sales over a longer period.

There are longer term (minimum rental = 1 month; maximum rental = 5 months per year) vacation properties in some places. Restrictions prevent primary residency, occupancy for less than 6 months. Considering how many snowbirds pull their expensive RVs into Disney's campground for weeks, I would think monthly rentals of OKW condos would be very popular. I can only imagine what a monthly rental would cost. Could DVC do this?
 
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Dean

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There are some challenges to what DVD could do with the portion it owns but the reality is they really have almost total control including the ability to make changes in the POS that would benefit them for this type of goal. I'm not sure there's a cheap buy back potential until it nears the end. They only take points ROFR which means there would have to be a buyer on the hook. And knowing their profit on points into the future is roughly 50% on new construction, what would be cheap to us would not be to DVD. In todays dollars NOW we'd be talking down in the $10-20 a point, less as the end nears, to make it a viable concept. They really will have some challenges because technically the entire resort will be in the club if they don't alter the POS and if they go too far in that area, they'd need the membership to vote on it, which they clearly don't want to happen. Otherwise, and with the current rules, DVD will have to reserve just like the rest of us to rent or use for other things. I can't imagine they'd be able to sell it as a new venture for a price they'd consider reasonable. I suppose they could go through and raze the buildings a couple at a time and build a new resort to resell but they'd still have to let the membership reserve until 2057. I don't see they'll be able to rent for cash sufficient to make it viable either. It should be interesting and there should be some fun threads.
 

chriskre

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I love my DVC like most who own do.
If you value staying on site it's a no brainer, but if you want bigger units to just relax and do a pool/resort day
or week, then there are certainly many Orlando options that are much better.
If you aren't doing the parks then most of the big names are great alternatives.

I use half my points and rent the other half, bank and borrow to get what I want for a splurge here and there.
As an owner the rentals help it pay for itself so the hit of purchasing direct has never bothered me much.
If I have to sell, I know I won't have a problem. That's just a plus.
 

tgropp

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Marriott MF's are increasing at an alarming rate compared to Disney
Points purchased from Disney are now worth at least 30% more than what I paid for them
Marriott points purchased are 75% less than originally purchased.
Dare to guess what in my opinion the better product is?
 

frank808

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Disney Vacation Club (Aulani,SSR,VGC,VGF) Hilton Grand Vacation Club(Bay Club, Kohala Suites, The District) Marriott Vacation Club (Aruba Surf Club, Grand Residence, Grand Chateau, Grand Vista,Harbour Lake, KoOlina,Willow Ridge & DC points)
Marriott MF's are increasing at an alarming rate compared to Disney
Points purchased from Disney are now worth at least 30% more than what I paid for them
Marriott points purchased are 75% less than originally purchased.
Dare to guess what in my opinion the better product is?
Secret to mvc is not buy their points. Buy resale legacy weeks. You cannot buy weeks direct anymore, only via resale. MVC points was rolled out about 7 years ago to make use of all those bronze and silver weeks that were worthless and getting expensive to pay maintenance fees on.

They create a "trust" with points and turn those worthless weeks into $$$! Then MVC can sell points at a little over $10 originally.

Sent from my SM-T217S using Tapatalk
 

heathpack

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Last Sunday, I decided to rent my VGC points. I've been very busy, so I went with a broker. Filled out my paperwork and less than 24 hours later, the points were rented for $5.61 per point over my MF.

Sweet
 

SusanU

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I own Wyndham and DVC. I bought Wyndham resale in 2008 and DVC in Oct 2015, so I am a DVC "member" and get all of the discounts and events. I can't use my points for the cruises and such, but I would never do that anyway.

Going from Wyndham to DVC has been a shock to the system. I am so used to Wyndham nickel-and-diming us with transaction fees, housekeeping fees, guest certificates, etc. that I was completely shocked to find out the DVC charges me absolutely nothing. I changed one reservation four time, and I paid zero fees. I've done numerous stays of one or two nights. No fees. I rent out half of my points and cover all of my MFs for the year, so my stays are free. I could resell my points tomorrow for more than I paid two years ago. I agree that OKW needs a refresh (which it is getting), but I think the other resorts are in great shape (and I've stayed at almost all of them in the past few years). We absolutely loved Poly and would buy points there if I could find room in the budget. So, I guess what I'm saying, is that I find it hard to disagree with the OP.

And don't forget no more pressure every day of your vacation to attend a "lying" Owners Update!!!
 

famy27

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And don't forget no more pressure every day of your vacation to attend a "lying" Owners Update!!!

So true! I've done one DVC presentation and it was so low-key and no pressure. And nobody makes me go to the "parking pass desk" to be sweet talked and/or harassed into attending a presentation. All with fun lies that it's informational, or a survey, or a social event. Shut up, Wyndham.
 
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