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Consolidated Wyndham Points Spreadsheet

Discussion in 'Wyndham Vacation Resorts' started by skotrla, Jun 13, 2018.

  1. skotrla

    skotrla TUG Member

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    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Qg7jd4yPldw-HPWaPkVk1E68KsETwoIuyBFnJPulkgw/edit?usp=sharing

    I took the annual points for the cheapest 2BR at each resort to come up with a median 2BR cost of 8.2M points (158K/week).

    My interest was in comparing Wyndham point costs with HICV points costs - this compares to 6.1M (117K/week) for HICV.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HB00pcN4u116afQyKAG1iumSddSaSTmC8rf5OoeN9Yc/edit?usp=sharing

    This 25% point difference matches what I saw looking at a small sample of resorts that overlap between HICV and Wyndham - what it doesn't answer is whether the median Wyndham 2BR is 25% nicer/better locations than the median 2BR HICV or whether the Wyndham points are 25% less valuable than HICV points.

    If someone has experience with both clubs, it would be great to get some feedback on the quality/value of some Wyndham resorts in the 8.2M range vs. some HICV resorts in the 6.1M range. If the Wyndham units in this range are higher end units, then Wyndham overall resorts are likely just higher end. If the units are comparable, then Wyndham points are likely less valuable than HICV points.

    -Scott
    Owner, HICV Google+ Group
     
    Nickiez187 likes this.
  2. Avislo

    Avislo TUG Member

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    Impressive work. Especially the breakout of resorts with the number of bedrooms at the resort.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
  3. ronparise

    ronparise TUG Member

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    You cannot compare one system with another in this way

    For example a one bedroom at wyndhams Avenue Plaza Resort is 140000 Club Wyndham points or 12500 Worldmark credits. Or you could buy one of the floating weeks deeded at this resort.

    Same condo, different currencies.

    140000 Average maintenance fee Wyndham points contract will cost in the neighborhood of $1000 and mf about $900. The 12500 Worldmark credits will cost about $2500 and mf is about $875
    And the floating week will cost about a dollar and the mf is about $800

    If I wanted to visit only this resort I know what I would buy and that’s the week. It’s cheaper to buy cheaper to own and what’s not clear from the data is the flexibility the original developer built into these weeks. (Split weeks and a right to use provision)

    The more important thing that will push me to one system or another isn’t the numbers, it’s the location. I bought Wyndham because it was the only system with resorts in Washington DC, San Francisco, and Florida. It didn’t matter whether another system was cheaper or not. These are the places I wanted to visit and Wyndham was the only system that offered all three
     
  4. skotrla

    skotrla TUG Member

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    I'm not trying to compare maintenance cost or initial cost - I'm trying to compare the currency. If 140K Wyndham points = 12.5K Worldmarm credits consistently, than the conversion factor is 11.2:1.

    -Scott
     
  5. skotrla

    skotrla TUG Member

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    I did the same analysis for FL units only, as that might be a better comparison.

    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1v5YIoLN2PhAi5HJROWxqrv_N68b6raBt

    HICV FL units are about 22% fewer points than Wyndham FL units (vs. 26% overall). The two median HICV resorts are both Orange Lake vs. the median Wyndham resorts are Bonnet Creek and Sea Gardens. Has anybody been to both Wyndham and HICV resorts out of these median resorts? Are they comparable or is Wyndham 22% nicer?

    -Scott
     
  6. scootr5

    scootr5 Tug Review Crew: Rookie TUG Member

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    There is not going to be any consistency like that. At Galena, a 2 bedroom prime season is 164,000 Wyndham points versus 10000 WM credits, or 16.4:1.

    Dolphin's Cove is even more varied. WM only has one season, while Wyndham has 2. A 2 bedroom would be either 17.5:1 or 15.4:1

    It's like when people try to equate Wyndham points to RCI points - it just doesn't work.

    This is going to be a highly subjective assessment.
     
  7. skotrla

    skotrla TUG Member

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    I'm looking for a good average - by looking at the annual points cost of a unit, different seasons are taken into account and inconsistencies are averaged out. While comparing resorts is subjective, it can still be valuable if people consistently prefer one resort over the other (not taking cost into account). My assumption is that these median resorts are of equal value unless the collective opinion of everyone is that the median resorts in one system are better than the other.

    On another thread, the feedback from one person was that these median Wyndham resorts are 12-15% nicer than these median HICV resorts, which would mean ~60% of the points difference is due to greater Wyndham quality and the other ~40% is due to Wyndham points being worth slightly less than HICV points.

    -Scott
     
  8. bobbyoc23

    bobbyoc23 TUG Member

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    You have to consider maintenance and initial cost when comparing (normalizing) different point systems, right?
     
  9. skotrla

    skotrla TUG Member

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    Maintenance costs add quite a bit of complexity, even within a single system. The way I would approach it is that points have a certain value, and then maintenance is the cost that you are paying for that value.

    -Scott
     
  10. bobbyoc23

    bobbyoc23 TUG Member

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    Agreed. If you only consider maintenance costs, you need to calculate the price per point (usually $/1,000 points). Then figure out how many points are required for whatever size unit that you need. Then do the math and figure out how much that will cost. Do this for both systems and find out which has the better value. Is that what you’re doing? It sounds like you’re only comparing the number of points between the systems... but my apologies if I misunderstood.
     
  11. Jan M.

    Jan M. Guest

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    My question is are you able to reduce all this data to what in the end will truly be relevant to you?

    I'm going to use apples and oranges. Some kind of apples and oranges are always on sale. I'm looking at the sale flyers for the different stores and making up a shopping list trying to decide which store to go to and whether apples or oranges will be the lower cost per piece of fruit. My husband sees me making my list and says we haven't had the Honey Crisp apples he loves as his special treat in a while. They are more expensive even when they are on sale and when they aren't seem really expensive when compared to the sale prices of the other apples and the oranges. Then I catch myself and take a mental step back, remembering that he works hard and deserves that one special treat when he asks for it once in awhile.

    Vacations are the Honey Crisp apples. Figure out which system will be your Honey Crisp apples then research the cheapest way to get them.

    I'm reminded of a small resort we stayed at on the beach in Panama City Beach in late August of 2016. The resort wasn't fancy but it was nice. No activities and the fronts of the units faced the parking lot and hotel next door. There was a big enough balcony? on the beach end of the building when you came up the steps to the second floor where we stayed for a small group of people to be able to sit in some shade, enjoy the breeze and watch the water. It had a decent pool area with lounges, chairs and tables. There were a couple of grills and picnic tables. No washers and dryers in the units but they had the towel exchange room open in mornings. Like some of the other small resorts we've stayed at some of the owners there had been coming the same time for years and had become vacation family. I really enjoyed their company during the days as my husband was there for work. Overall I would have no objection to going back as long as it was a discounted point week but would want to go at a time that didn't have the heat and humidity of late August.

    There was a very elderly couple staying there who had a third floor unit. They were giving their week away as they could no longer handle the drive to get there or the stairs. The people we had been visiting with during our stay liked us and wanted us to take the week. The maintenance fees weren't too high either. Yes we could have deposited it for trade if we wanted to go other places but I knew that it wouldn't be a strong trader. I was able to book the resort as a cheap discounted point week and no one else had booked it during the 7-10 days it took my husband to make sure that was the week he would be working in the area and for me to decide if I was going too. I didn't want a fixed week either. We have Wyndham points and several resorts in points weeks with RCI too. I wanted no part of having a third type of ownership. Of having to use a fixed week with the TPU's, Trading Power Units, if we deposited the week for trade. Lastly we had no desire to drive 10+ hours to Panama City Beach and home again every year for a week in late August. If we had been offered that week a few years earlier I would have taken it in a heartbeat. However in the intervening years I had learned enough to know it wasn't a Honey Crisp. Someone else might at look at that week as FREE and they could deposit it for trade to go other places and said omg ,yes, a FREE apple.

    There are so many things to learn about using the different timeshare systems that trying to teach someone who has no experience of them is a challenge and often not as successful as we would like. Trying to learn enough to evaluate more than one system is, as you can see from our replies, something several of us are telling you we don't think can be done by someone who has never owned a timeshare. There are a several people who post on the different threads and have told about their history of owning timeshares. They bought or were given a timeshare and over time when they wanted more added to what they had. When by personal experience they learned what worked best for them, what they liked. they gave away or sold some of what they'd previously acquired. By using what they learned from personal experience and what they learned on TUG they knew what they wanted and what they could expect to pay to get it. Some people can and will tell you exactly what they would have done differently had they known more in the beginning. Other people bought something they liked, have been very happy for years and never felt the need to look at other systems. They don't torture themselves with doubts about whether they could have saved themselves $1000 or even $10,000 by owning somewhere else. Somewhere they might not have liked as much.

    One thing many of us have in common is that we bought developer and spent a lot more than people who bought resale. Live and learn. In our case back when we first bought we wouldn't have touched resale. There were just too many people who bought resale deeds and found themselves saddled with unpaid assessments, back maintenance fees and etc. That was back in the dark ages by comparison to now. Now almost everyone has a computer, we know how to find information online, the timeshares have websites and many of us have joined TUG. One of my reasons for bringing up how things have changed is to also to tell you that no system will be the exactly the same in 10 years or likely even 5 years. There will always be changes and you may not like all of them. So don't allow yourself to be swayed by people who are disenchanted because their system changed. You can count on things changing and it isn't inconceivable that some changes could actually be for the better but honestly it doesn't usually work that way. For those of us who have owned for years it is hard not to miss what we once had. I would be over the moon ecstatic to have the VIP benefits we had when Wyndham was still Fairfield before 2006. Or even in the first couple of years after Fairfield became Wyndham.

    You seem to have narrowed it down to two systems, pick the system that looks like it has the best resorts in areas you know you will enjoy visiting. Get enough points to be able to enjoy at least one vacation a year at a peak time. Get the lowest maintenance fees for the lowest price. An example I like to use is that a 100k Club Wyndham Access points reservation costs approximately $150 more in maintenance fees that what I own costs me. So if you pay $500 more to acquire one of the cheaper maintenance fee deeds than a Club Wyndham Access contract it would take 3.3 years or in some cases even less to recover that $500. For me 5 years or less to recover a higher purchase price is acceptable. At 6 or 7 years I would have to think long and hard. Over that I wouldn't do it at this point in our lives. If we were younger I might consider 10 years acceptable but probably not even then because there is so much out there that you can get a good deal on if you are patient.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
    AlohaAmy and Nomad34 like this.
  12. skotrla

    skotrla TUG Member

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    I'm an HICV Elite owner trying to understand how points compare between the systems, so that I can make an informed decision regarding expanding into Wyndham. Put another way, what I am trying to understand is if Wyndham were to purchase a resort from HICV (or vice versa), would they change the points or leave them the same?

    -Scott
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  13. Jan M.

    Jan M. Guest

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    Do you have some information that makes you think this is likely to happen? HICV has been around for a long time and so has Wyndham which started out as Fairfield in 1979. Both are associated with hotel names so it would be a major loss of face in the business world if one of them were to sell their timeshare division to the other. Although Wyndham is separating their hotel and timeshare divisions. When Wyndham acquired Shell and Worldmark it gave Wyndham presence in areas they didn't have resorts. When I looked at the list of HICV locations too many of the resorts are in the same areas that Wyndham already has resorts. So I don't see an advantage for Wyndham to acquire HICV and it doesn't fit in their current growth pattern which is to establish a presence in urban areas. I don't think HICV is in a position to be able to buy out Wyndham. But you know what they say, never say never.

    Hilton Grand Vacation Club, HGVC, does have a strong presence in an area Wyndham owners want and there is a big demand for, Southwest Florida. HGVC has resorts on Sanibel Island, Captiva Island, Marco Island and Fort Myers Beach. Wyndham has nothing in these areas.

    If you read back through the threads you may be able to see how it worked when Wyndham took over Worldmark. Worldmark owners still owned the same number of points and had the same point charts for the Worldmark resorts. The change for the owners was that each system was given access to a limited amount of inventory in the other system. And both systems have their own point charts for that inventory. There seems to be a limited amount of Worldmark inventory that Wyndham owners can book. And I know that at some of the Wyndham resorts there is some Worldmark inventory. I'm not sure if all the Wyndham resorts have some Worldmark inventory. And they both trade through RCI as does HICV, HGVC and DVC. Wyndham owns RCI.

    If you own HICV do you have an RCI weeks account or an RCI points account? We have an RCI points account but also have an RCI weeks account through Wyndham which we don't use. So far this year with our RCI points from owning at Grandview Las Vegas I've booked weeks at three Wyndham resorts, the new one in Austin, Reunion and Bonnet Creek. I would have access to some of the Wyndham resorts even if we didn't own Wyndham.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  14. skotrla

    skotrla TUG Member

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    Just hypothetical - the question is whether the points values for similar-valued resorts is close enough that one resort would use the point chart from the other resort or rather they would establish different point values.

    -Scott
     
  15. MaryBella7

    MaryBella7 TUG Member

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    If they establish different point values, they will also likely adjust the current owner point values to match the symbolic ownership the original points represent.
     
  16. ronparise

    ronparise TUG Member

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    Club Wyndham to Worldmark has done that work for you. Their club pass program is pretty close to 16.5:1
     
  17. ronparise

    ronparise TUG Member

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    Now what you are doing makes even less sense to me, if that’s possible

    I don’t see how knowing the ratio helps to make a decision to buy or rent one system or the other. Perhaps that’s not the decision you are trying to make, or perhaps you aren’t even trying to make a decision at all

    the difference between Leonard and Sheldon on the tv show is that Leonard is an applied physicist and Sheldon is theoritical.
    Leonard starts with a problem to solve or a question to answer. Sheldon starts with a theory to prove or disprove

    Are you a Leonard or Sheldon.

    Leonard might say I want to stay at a certain resort or resorts on a regular basis. Should I own a timeshare or rent? Or perhaps I should stay at a hotel

    Sheldon might say. I don’t like vacations at all but Timeshares are interesting. Let’s take a look at them and collect some data and see what we might learn
     
  18. skotrla

    skotrla TUG Member

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    OK, let's try another approach. I want to buy/rent 1M points worth of HICV reservations and 1M points worth Wyndham reservations (one time, not ownership). Excluding guest fees for Wyndham VIP and guest fees and booking fees for a HICV Elite, what's a fair price to pay for each? I can tell you that HICV points can be rented by Elite owners in quantity at $5/1, so typically HICV Elite owners are going to be in the $7-$9/1K range. Should I expect to pay more or less for the Wyndham points? The problem here is that there's not a lot of data in this area, so it's not clear to me that this is any less subjective than comparing resorts between systems.

    -Scott
     
  19. tschwa2

    tschwa2 Tug Review Crew: Rookie TUG Member

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    Toward the end of the year there are Wyndham owners who have excess points that they can not push over to the following year. You may be able to find some bargains.

    Are you comparing the cost of a reservation during prime time that the owner either made specifically for you or for the purposes of renting out that they made either at 10 months or using ARP to book at 13 months or some opportunistic rentals that might be within 60 days and include upgrades and/or discounted reservations.

    It sounds like you want to find a Platinum owner who isn't using their points and offer to be an account manager for them. There were businesses (that went out of business last year with the changes) that paid $6 per 1000 points. For some owners that covered MF for the year for others not but they didn't have to do anything. For those who make a regular thing out of renting reservations, they would want more than $6 per 1000.
     
  20. CCdad

    CCdad TUG Member

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    If "renting" from a Wyndham owner, you'll expect to pay between $8 - $12+ per thousand points (or more).

    If renting a specific Wyndham reservation, it'll depend on whether a VIP Platinum owner will pass along their discount and/or upgrade to you. You could pay more or less depending on the demand for a specific reservation (a prime beach location for the July 4th week will likely cost you more to rent than $12 / thousand points).
     
  21. skotrla

    skotrla TUG Member

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    I'm thinking about points without any restrictions or expiration for reservations that are not booked yet - not ARP at a specific resort because I suspect the cost of those would vary by resort based on maintenance at that resort.

    What are the people that were selling their points for $6/1K doing now? Are they selling for less since all of the buyers went away?

    -Scott
     
  22. capital city

    capital city TUG Member

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    They are probably not charging less because then they would lose money every year and would be better off selling.

    Not sure if this is covered yet but I dont look at averages at all but do look at getting a deal. I own at Panama City with around $4.5 /thousand mf. I like to stay at resorts where I can get a week for around 150,000 so I'm at less then $100 a night compared to a hotel it is an absolute steal. Others may own points at $6/ thousand mf and then stay at a resort like Panama City and pay 250,000 for the week and end up paying over $200 per night. These are not extremes and bookings like this I'm sure happen every hour of every day. So yes you can find an average but how much will that really help you?
     
  23. skotrla

    skotrla TUG Member

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    Agreed that within any system some reservations will be a better value than other reservations.

    -Scott
     
  24. Jan M.

    Jan M. Guest

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    I know nothing about how HICV works so let me state that right up front. However I do know Wyndham. Each resort has its own point chart and they vary tremendously. As I just posted on another thread when a resort is brought into the system it comes in with a point chart that will never change. Older resorts have lower point charts and new or newer resorts have varying degrees of higher point charts. Now if you were to pick several locations you know you would want to stay at where both systems have resorts, say Orlando, Branson, Vegas, Myrtle Beach, Tennessee, etc. You pick a specific resort because Wyndham has more than one resort in all of these locations. Not sure if HICV does. Next look at how many points it would take to stay at each of the resorts you've chosen in both systems for however many vacations you will be taking a year. When you've come up with that figure you look at what it will likely cost to buy that number of points with low maintenance fees. Then you can take what would be your purchase price and the annual maintenance fees for that number of points in each system and say this one will be the better deal for me.

    Now I'm going to throw in another variable. Say you stayed in Orlando and checked out both of the resorts on your list. What if say a year after you purchased based on that cost figure and what you saw of those resorts you realize Orlando can be a very expensive vacation if you go to any of the parks so you will only go there every other year or even every couple of years. But you will be going to Myrtle Beach every year and you find you really like the MB resort and the beach at that resort in the other system better. You can drive to MB so don't have the expense of flights and a rental car and your family likes hanging at the beach and resort so you aren't spending nearly as much money when you stay there. You could be like us who when our son when away to college found we could take a second beach vacation by ourselves in May before school let out or in September or October when schools were back and reservations were a lot less points than the peak summer weeks. In retrospect you would have gladly paid more to own where you want to go every year over where you will hopefully go depending on finances every other or couple of years. In this case you would be better off buying the system where you will be staying more frequently and renting from an owner in the other system, hopefully on a last minute deal, for the more sporadic stays in Orlando. Ask yourself if you are the type of people who when they go to Orlando are so busy at the parks, when they go to Vegas are pretty much just in their unit to sleep or when they are in Myrtle Beach are there for the beach? For a lot of them as long as their units meet certain requirements they don't ask more than that so being able to go as cheaply as possible is their priority. Then there are say the Hilton or Marriott timeshare owners who are convinced their system is the only one worth owning because their resorts are superior to the one resort they saw years ago with another system. And yes, I confess that we probably fall into that category because we still think that about Blue Green because we toured one of their resorts years ago.

    Another thing to think about is anticipating future needs and expecting that they are likely to change. So many people buy a location they fall in love with. Their kids grow up and say we had great times going there but there are so many other places we want to go. And they remind you that they are just starting out in our careers so don't get nearly as much vacation time as you do. Or some family members can't afford to go or get the time off that everyone else can get so the family vacations start to fall apart. Which system to you see currently offering more resorts in locations you might conceivably visit in say the next 5-10 years and continuing to grow so you have more options in the years to come? It could be that for you the best choice is to worry about that when the time comes. And there is nothing wrong with that either.

    Because I know so many people here on TUG understand exactly what I'm saying I like to say this. If anyone had ever told us not just when we first owned but even in the first 5 years we owned that we would own all that we do and go as much as we have I would have laughed. I would have said we will have to win the lottery because we don't have rich relatives who will die and leave us that kind of money. Many of us have been in situations where people ask us how we can afford go the places we go and take multiple vacations a year? The answer is always, we have a timeshare. They just look at you with "that look" because they "know" timeshares cost tens of thousand of dollars, are a scam and are worthless. They usually know someone who got screwed somehow or never uses their timeshare in Hawaii because flights are very expensive so are just wasting their money. You have come to know that means the person they know never learned to use what they have and/or they bought developer and later felt cheated. That is where you just walk away with joy in your heart because you know they spend more in their one big vacation a year than you spend in 3 or maybe even 4 vacations a year. That's when you know you've joined the Timeshare Addict Club and are proud of it!
     
    AlohaAmy, MaryBella7 and scootr5 like this.
  25. skotrla

    skotrla TUG Member

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    Have you seen the 500-line Wyndham spreadsheet I built from scratch? I know all about each resort having it's own points!

    What I'm looking for is a price to hypothetically "rent" 1M Wyndham points. How much value I will get out of those points might impact I personally am willing to pay, but it won't necessarily directly impact how much they will sell for (in the style of renting I am talking about).

    -Scott
     

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