TUG MEMBERS: Joining TUG does not automatically register you as a user of the TUG Bulletin Board. You must register yourself.


*ads are disabled when logged in as a member*
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. The TUGBBS forums are completely free and open to the public and exist as the absolute best place for owners to get help and advice about their timeshares for more than 25 years!

    Join tens of thousands of other owners just like you here to get any and all Timeshare questions answered!
    Dismiss Notice
  3. TUG has now saved timeshare owners more than $12,000,000 dollars just by finding us in time to rescind a new Timeshare purchase! A truly incredible milestone!

    Read more here: TUG saves owners more than $12Million dollars
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Sign up to get the TUG Newsletter for free! Join tens of thousands of other owners who get this every week! Latest resort reviews and the most important topics discussed by owners during the week!
    Dismiss Notice
  5. TUG is trying out a new program that will trade you a TUG membership for a Timeshare resort review if you are an expired member, or even just a guest here on the forums!

    Read more here
    Dismiss Notice
  6. Our official "end my sales presentation early" T-shirts are available again! Also come with the option for a free membership extension with purchase to offset the cost!

    Read more Here
    Dismiss Notice
  7. Follow the TUG Member Banner as it travels the world on vacation with Timeshare owners! Also sign up to get the banner sent to you so you can submit a photo of your vacation with the banner to share with TUG! Banner Thread
    Dismiss Notice
  8. TUG has now joined Priceline.com as an affiliate!

    Members and guests who book air travel, rental cars and even Cruise Vacations thru TUG's priceline links will now support TUG in the process!

    Read more here
  9. A few of the most common links here on the forums for newbies and guests!
    Dismiss Notice

California Homeowners Face Higher Insurance Costs After Fires

Discussion in 'TUG Lounge' started by CalGalTraveler, May 14, 2019.

  1. CalGalTraveler

    CalGalTraveler TUG Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2014
    Messages:
    3,026
    Likes Received:
    1,679
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    California
  2. Ken555

    Ken555 Tug Review Crew: Rookie TUG Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2005
    Messages:
    9,510
    Likes Received:
    519
    Trophy Points:
    398
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Resorts Owned:
    Westin Kierland
    Sheraton Desert Oasis
    I was on the phone with my agent today. My rates went up 20% this year, which has been the lowest annual increase in five years. My premium has increased 285% in five year. And I’m not in a prime fire area.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  3. CalGalTraveler

    CalGalTraveler TUG Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2014
    Messages:
    3,026
    Likes Received:
    1,679
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    California
    I was talking with an agent today and they said many homeowners in the Truckee/Tahoe area are being dropped from coverage and are scrambling to find new policies because of the fire risk.

    Our policy almost doubled this year. The agent said some people in the Tahoe basin and Truckee area have seen insurance jump 3 - 5x with some up to $17,000 a year for insurance. That's more than property taxes. On top of it Calif offers a Fair plan but it only covers up to $1.5m all in.

    So all those lake front Tahoe homes worth millions will have to be self insured. I presume that won't be a problem for the rich, however there are many modest multi-generational lakefront homes where the families will be forced to sell because they cannot afford insurance or cannot insure.
     
  4. T_R_Oglodyte

    T_R_Oglodyte TUG Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2005
    Messages:
    11,049
    Likes Received:
    785
    Trophy Points:
    548
    Location:
    Belly-View, WA
    Many people in the western US choose to live in sylvan and woodsy environs. To me it's similar to choosing to live on a barrier island on the East Coast.

    People are certainly welcome to make that choice, but then having made that choice they should live with the consequences and costs associated with that choice. And the price to insure against those risks comes in the form of insurance premiums.

    Maybe I'm being harsh or insensitive, but I don't believe it's good public policy to subsidize people choosing to live in areas that are subject to known and predictable natural disasters.

    For the first couple of years after we were married we lived in the San Bernardino Mountains, near Lake Arrowhead. One of the factors that caused us to leave was the fire risk.
     
    jimf41, Retiresoon, amycurl and 4 others like this.
  5. Fredflintstone

    Fredflintstone TUG Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2018
    Messages:
    584
    Likes Received:
    582
    Trophy Points:
    154
    Resorts Owned:
    Rent only
    Sigh...typical insurance. They offer an umbrella when it’s not raining but as soon as there are clouds in the sky, the umbrella is pulled.

    A friend of mine was healthy until a year ago. He sadly got cancer. What happened to his health insurance midstream? It got pulled. Too high a risk after being with the same company for many years. The result? Bankruptcy and now is cared for by the State.

    Sad all around.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
    klpca likes this.
  6. Ken555

    Ken555 Tug Review Crew: Rookie TUG Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2005
    Messages:
    9,510
    Likes Received:
    519
    Trophy Points:
    398
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Resorts Owned:
    Westin Kierland
    Sheraton Desert Oasis
    I live in a major metro area, not in fire zone, and my rates have increased 285% in five years. How does that fit in with your reasoning?


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
    klpca and Fredflintstone like this.
  7. T_R_Oglodyte

    T_R_Oglodyte TUG Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2005
    Messages:
    11,049
    Likes Received:
    785
    Trophy Points:
    548
    Location:
    Belly-View, WA
    Not knowing specifics I can't say. But if there is a competitive insurance market and all insurers are increasing their premiums, then it's likely that event have transpired that have caused insurers to reassess risks.

    I understand the situation. My professional and general liability insurance premiums for my business have tripled over the last five years - partly because of some adverse court decisions increasing insurer liability, as well as a change in my business portfoli0 (the amount of work I do for public agencies has increased, and working for public agencies is much higher risk, as compared with doing the same work for private companies).

    That's the price of doing business. Meanwhile I search for other insurers that assess my work differently, and last year I switched insurers after having been a loyal customer for my previous insurer for more than 20 years.
     
  8. Ken555

    Ken555 Tug Review Crew: Rookie TUG Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2005
    Messages:
    9,510
    Likes Received:
    519
    Trophy Points:
    398
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Resorts Owned:
    Westin Kierland
    Sheraton Desert Oasis
    Thank you for confirming that your earlier characterization of the rate increases was incorrect.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  9. klpca

    klpca TUG Review Crew: Veteran TUG Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2006
    Messages:
    4,661
    Likes Received:
    1,831
    Trophy Points:
    399
    Location:
    CA
    Resorts Owned:
    SDO, Quarter House, Seapointe, Coronado Beach, HGVC Bay Club
    You really can't compare a home in the mountains to suburbia in the city. In 2003, the fire that we had here crossed a 12 lane freeway. In 2007 a different fire also crossed the freeway and burned homes 35 miles from the place where the fire started. That neighborhood had been there for 40 years. It's not like we are building in the back country. The fires come to us during Santa Ana's. Between the prolonged drought conditions, our normal Santa Ana's, and human errors, fire risk has increased and the insurers don't want to cover it at the old rates any longer. They have had some tremendous losses in the past 20 years so I certainly understand it, although I don't appreciate the premium increases.

    Interesting info to our most memorable local fires:
    Link to photo of the fire crossing the northbound 15 at MCAS Miramar, 2003 Cedar Fire. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cedar_Fire_crosses_Interstate_15.jpg
    Info on the Cedar fire: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cedar_Fire_(2003)
    FYI - started in the backcountry by a lost hunter from LA. The fire spread 30 miles from the east to the west - overnight. It want from a sparsely populated area to the suburbs in hours. It closed the San Diego airport.

    2007 Witch fire - started by a downed power line: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_Fire We had 90mph winds. The fire burned homes 35 miles from the point of origin after crossing a 12 lane freeway.

    I don't personally feel that these qualify as predictable natural disasters, more like predictable human caused disasters. And living in an actual city, surrounded by 12 lane freeways hardly makes me feel like I am living in a sylvan and woodsy environ. SDGE has spent the last few years working to improve fire safety as it was their power lines that caused the Witch Fire. They now shut off power to customers when the Santa Ana's get going. I am sure that PG&E will be doing the same since they have their own set of problems with fire related issues.
     
    Ken555 likes this.
  10. pedro47

    pedro47 TUG Review Crew: Expert TUG Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2005
    Messages:
    10,357
    Likes Received:
    1,608
    Trophy Points:
    498
    Location:
    East Coast
    $17,000 dollars for a homeowners policy. Wow! I am going to stop complaining about my homeowners insurance policy in Virginia.
    I cannot imagine paying double figures for a policy.
     
    TUGBrian likes this.
  11. T_R_Oglodyte

    T_R_Oglodyte TUG Lifetime Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2005
    Messages:
    11,049
    Likes Received:
    785
    Trophy Points:
    548
    Location:
    Belly-View, WA
    If I were in the fire insurance business, at least in CA, seeing the wildfire a couple of years ago jump
    I agree totally. Seeing the wine country fire several years ago move into long-established subdivisions in Santa Rosa was scary and eye-opening. That's on a par with the So Cal fires that you mentioned. I was also around in the mid-1980's when the Oakland Hills fire came descended down the hillside and into the City. Eucalyptus burns very hot.

    Couple all of that with climate change, and if I were in the fire underwriting business in the western US, I would certainly be questioning the assumptions in my old risk models. And not just fire, I would wonder if all forms of weather-related calamity are properly priced.
     
    klpca, amycurl and Fredflintstone like this.
  12. am1

    am1 TUG Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2009
    Messages:
    5,576
    Likes Received:
    502
    Trophy Points:
    298
    Glad I do not have insurance on my properties.

    Owners should pay the full rate if they want insurance. Planning should be better so people to not build on costal islands, sides of mountains, flood zones etc. But the government lets them. Buyer beware.
     
    Fredflintstone likes this.
  13. rickandcindy23

    rickandcindy23 TUG Review Crew: Expert TUG Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2005
    Messages:
    21,300
    Likes Received:
    1,168
    Trophy Points:
    549
    Location:
    The Centennial State
    Resorts Owned:
    Wyndham Plat,RCI pts,Shell,WorldMark,OKW,SSR pts; Marriott's Willow Ridge;Val Chatelle; Hono Koa; SBP; Blue Ridge Village.
    Wow. 285% increase seems excessive. Our home insurance went up to $1,800/yr, and I called around and got a better deal with American Family, but it's still $1,400/yr.
     
    Fredflintstone likes this.
  14. SmithOp

    SmithOp TUG Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2010
    Messages:
    5,032
    Likes Received:
    828
    Trophy Points:
    299
    Location:
    Costa Mesa, CA
    Resorts Owned:
    HGVC King's Land 2BR Premier 14.4K Points.
    Home repair costs are going up also. I just had a broken spring on a rollup garage door replaced.

    The repairman said there is a new law that garage door openers must have battery backup in CA, adding about $150 to the cost for battery and DC motor.

    Law was due to people getting trapped in garages when power went out, I guess the lanyard to release the slide was not good enough. I know people that remove the lanyard because thieves use it to get into garages, break the window and reach in.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
     
  15. Fredflintstone

    Fredflintstone TUG Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2018
    Messages:
    584
    Likes Received:
    582
    Trophy Points:
    154
    Resorts Owned:
    Rent only
    Everything is going up. However, wages aren’t keeping up unless your a very highly skilled worker or in Senior Management in a successful company or have a growing business.




    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
    Ken555 likes this.
  16. Ken555

    Ken555 Tug Review Crew: Rookie TUG Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2005
    Messages:
    9,510
    Likes Received:
    519
    Trophy Points:
    398
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Resorts Owned:
    Westin Kierland
    Sheraton Desert Oasis
    Additionally, last November’s fires were larger, faster, and more devastating than many expected. Just look at the timeline of the Wolsey fire:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolsey_Fire

    I have heard second hand from firefighters who were among the first to respond stories that illustrate the speed of this particular fire. I was told of an engine which arrived at a home closet to the fire, they reviewed the area and saw the fire hundreds of feet away (if not more), then went to get their equipment, and by the time they returned to the backyard of the home minutes later the fire was almost on top of them. No one was prepared for this fire to cross the 101 (a major freeway) the first night...I don’t believe any fire had ever moved so fast in this area previously.

    I understand and appreciate all Californians will have rate increases due to fires, including those not near us. Still, 285% over five years seems excessive.

    Since I posted yesterday I received a few other quotes and ALL are significantly higher than my renewal quote. I’m likely going to increase my deductible in order to have a lower premium, as that seems to be the best option available (yet that premium will still be over 200% higher than it was five years ago).


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
    klpca and Fredflintstone like this.
  17. Mike&Edie

    Mike&Edie TUG Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2013
    Messages:
    252
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    128
    Location:
    Prunedale, CA (We rented out our home.)
  18. klpca

    klpca TUG Review Crew: Veteran TUG Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2006
    Messages:
    4,661
    Likes Received:
    1,831
    Trophy Points:
    399
    Location:
    CA
    Resorts Owned:
    SDO, Quarter House, Seapointe, Coronado Beach, HGVC Bay Club
    That's my biggest fear.
     
  19. 1Kflyerguy

    1Kflyerguy TUG Review Crew: Rookie TUG Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    1,523
    Likes Received:
    231
    Trophy Points:
    174
    Location:
    San Jose, Ca
    Resorts Owned:
    HGVC Kings Land, Marriott Destination Club Points
    I had not heard about this change in the codes. At first glance it seems excessive, but reading more it seems they are attributing elderly people being killed in some of the recent fires due to the inability to open the garage.

    https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article218811560.html

    I wouldn't have any trouble opening the door with the manual release, but not sure my wife would get all the steps right... But of course we solved that issue by keeping so much junk in the garage, the cars are in the driveway...
     
  20. amycurl

    amycurl TUG Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2011
    Messages:
    1,382
    Likes Received:
    499
    Trophy Points:
    194
    Location:
    Greensboro, NC
    I think what was normal for 40+ years, and what the "new normal" will be in terms of climate change are two different beasts. I think these changes in insurance coverage are a vanguard of the "new normal."
     
    klpca likes this.
  21. clifffaith

    clifffaith TUG Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2016
    Messages:
    1,798
    Likes Received:
    1,094
    Trophy Points:
    223
    Location:
    San Pedro, CA
    Thanks for the heads up on this. We'll want to get battery backup added before putting house up for sale in two years. Lord knows toilet specs have probably changed AGAIN and we'll likely have to do that too! We've moved four times in the last 20 years and there is always something that was to code when we moved in and not when we moved out.
     
  22. PigsDad

    PigsDad TUG Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2006
    Messages:
    5,971
    Likes Received:
    1,464
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Northern Colorado
    Resorts Owned:
    HGVC Elite: SeaWorld, Surf Club, Charter Club, Valdoro
    I'm not buying this. The real issue is that people now demand more, larger, and more luxurious things and services. Think about how many things we view as necessities today that were pure luxury items 20, 40, 60 years ago. Everyone has to have their own phone. Multiple cars per family. Big vacations. The list goes on and on.

    But the big one is housing. Take a look at how the average size of a new house in has grown since the 50's:

    [​IMG]

    From less than 1000 sq. ft. to 2500. AND the average family size has decreased by over 30% during that same time!

    So please, don't give me the line that wages have not kept up. That's just a smoke screen to the real issue of the rampant increase of consumerism.

    Kurt
     
    Fredflintstone likes this.
  23. Fredflintstone

    Fredflintstone TUG Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2018
    Messages:
    584
    Likes Received:
    582
    Trophy Points:
    154
    Resorts Owned:
    Rent only
    Some points well taken. Yes, home sq ft have increased.

    Here is the median wages in the US sourced by Wikipedia:

    Year Wage Index Year Wage Index Year WageIndex
    1951 $2,799.16 1952 $2,973.32 1953 $3,139.44
    1954 $3,155.64 1955 $3,301.44 1956 $3,532.36
    1957 $3,641.72 1958 $3,673.80 1959 $3,855.80
    1960 $4,007.12 1961 $4,086.76 1962 $4,291.40
    1963 $4,396.64 1964 $4,576.32 1965 $4,658.72
    1966 $4,938.36 1967 $5,213.44 1968 $5,571.76
    1969 $5,893.76 1970 $6,186.24 1971 $6,497.08
    1972 $7,133.80 1973 $7,580.16 1974 $8,030.76
    1975 $8,630.92 1976 $9,226.48 1977 $9,779.44
    1978 $10,556.03 1979 $11,479.46 1980 $12,513.46
    1981 $13,773.10 1982 $14,531.34 1983 $15,239.24
    1984 $16,135.07 1985 $16,822.51 1986 $17,321.82
    1987 $18,426.51 1988 $19,334.04 1989 $20,099.55
    1990 $21,027.98 1991 $21,811.60 1992 $22,935.42
    1993 $23,132.67 1994 $23,753.53 1995 $24,705.66
    1996 $25,913.90 1997 $27,426.00 1998 $28,861.44
    1999 $30,469.84 2000 $32,154.82 2001 $32,921.92
    2002 $33,252.09 2003 $34,064.95 2004 $35,648.55
    2005 $36,952.94 2006 $38,651.41 2007 $40,405.48
    2008 $41,334.97 2009 $40,711.61 2010 $41,673.83
    2011 $42,979.61 2012 $44,321.67 2013 $44,888.16
    2014 $46,481.52 2015 $48,098.63 2016 $48,642.15
    2017 $50,321.89
    F

    And here are the average home prices in California:

    [​IMG]

    So, house prices, (on average) went from 5 x wages to almost 10 x wages from 1970 to now.

    In Vancouver, Canada an average 1000 sq foot home went for 87,000 in 1988. Today that SAME home sold for 1.8 million dollars. Average wages in Vancouver in 1988 were 21 k and today are 54 k. So, a BASIC home went up 19 x and wages went up 2 x.

    I can cite example after example and these quotes are on basic 1000 sq foot homes.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  24. CalGalTraveler

    CalGalTraveler TUG Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2014
    Messages:
    3,026
    Likes Received:
    1,679
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    California

    I was told that building costs per sq foot are skyrocketing due to skilled labor shortages and tariffs now being imposed on building materials from China. Plus more regulation. She told me that it costs upward of $400/sq foot to rebuild in the Truckee/Tahoe area. So, it will cost more to rebuild than many homes are worth.

    It's a double-whammy because many long-time homeowners are apparently under-insured. The insurance broker told me that many policies are now going from full coverage if your coverage is within 80% of the actual cost to rebuild, to people being dropped and their only alternative is to go with non-California regulated plans that require 100% coverage which means that if your estimate of the property is too low, they will only give you the coverage percentage of the total cost to rebuild. If you don't cough up the money to augment and rebuild as before, then they will only give you the depreciated value of the property.

    Alternatively you 100% insure then you have to pay significantly higher premiums. (you can pay me now or pay me later). But if the home is worth less than the cost to rebuild, then perhaps some will insure up to the depreciated value and plan to take the insurance money and walk if there is a catastrophic fire.

    I asked what are people on fixed incomes supposed to do? She said many are forgoing insurance because they simply cannot afford it. Or they are buying piecemeal insurance for theft etc from an insurance company and buying the California Fair plan for fire. But apparently that is expensive and not a good insurance plan. Rents for working class will also increase to cover the cost of insurance.

    This will definitely put a lid on property sales because buyers will need to not only afford the mortgage but the insurance.

    I hope the California state government steps in as this is a catastrophe waiting to happen.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
    klpca and Fredflintstone like this.
  25. simpsontruckdriver

    simpsontruckdriver Guest

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,817
    Likes Received:
    92
    Trophy Points:
    108
    Location:
    Deltona Florida
    As a Florida Licensed Health Insurance agent (I do not do Property & Casualty, aka home and car insurance), I can say the premium increases in CA are solely due to fires. Insurance is all about spreading out past/future losses over all the subscribers. With health insurance, a loss is sickness, chronic illness, cancer, pregnancy, and disability. That is why health insurance premiums skyrocketed, insurers were required to cover pre-existing conditions and all current health issues, causing a significant loss, and their only recourse is to make it up by increasing premiums and increasing deductibles (which could be considered NOT covering pre-existing conditions).

    In 2004-2005, Florida was bludgeoned by several hurricanes, causing most insurers to pull from reinsurance (insurance on the insurance companies - in case their losses are more than their cash on hand). As a result, many stopped insuring Florida residents. Coastal Floridian homeowners could not get insurance, so Governor J. E. Bush ("Jeb") and a Republican majority created Citizens Property Insurance, which they pay high premiums and every homeowner NOT with Citizens pays to help keep the government-run insurance going (like a tax).

    With California, the fire losses were so huge that they can't afford to pay for homes with their current income when the next firestorm hits. That is why they went up. And who pays? Everyone across the USA. Yes, CEOs are paid tens of millions of dollars, but cutting their pay will only cut a few bucks off everyone's premiums. All in all, more frequent natural disasters and skyrocketing home prices will cause everyone to pay more.

    TS
     

Share This Page