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Availability for WKORV - 2 BD Ocean Front Deluxe

Discussion in 'Vistana Signature Experiences (formerly Starwood)' started by vacationemery, Aug 4, 2018.

  1. vacationemery

    vacationemery Guest

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    Hi! My husband and I are looking at a resale for a 2bdrm oceanfront deluxe annual at WKORV. We are entirely new to timeshares, other than the Nanea (overpriced) developer presentation that we attended. We like the concept and the flexibility of the Vistana point system to sometimes go somewhere other than Maui (we're in AZ).

    My biggest fear is that to actually get the size/view/deluxe that we've paid for, we're going to have to book 12 months out no matter what in order to get somewhere in the time window where we can travel - we have school-aged children so are typically looking at summer break - is summer really hard to get? We don't have a lot of flexibility so is the timeshare thing not good for us? Is this type of unit really hard to get since it's limited? Any experience here?

    Also, how hard is it to get a different property after the 8-month mark (i.e. St. John, Atlantis, Cabo...)? I feel like everything I read you have to be on your computer at midnight to even hope to get what you want!

    Also, any tips/experience on this property, this unit type, or anything helpful in general for a newbie?

    Thanks in advance for any feedback/response!
     
  2. taterhed

    taterhed TUG Member

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    Resorts Owned:
    Westin WKORV OFD
    Marriott's Grande Vista
    Worldmark x2
    Well......I just bought, so I'm not a very good source of knowledge, other than 'what I did so far....' and 'what it looks like to me.'

    • Premium 2br units at WKORV (the South) have the lowest Square ft./MF ratio. OFD units have the highest. WKORVN (the North) standard units have a higher ratio than WKORV premium. Ergo, WKORV 2br premium units are the best 'value' on MF's.
    • WKORV OFD and OFC (deluxe and center) are the 'real' ocean front units. The OFC is the king of the views (both master and studio are full-monty oceanfront). OFD units have a large lanai, lots of square footage and extra windows. The studio unit is behind the 1br portion and has a lanai that faces east or west (90 degs to ocean) but is a great view.
    • WKORV OFD and OFC units command a premium resale price: OFC is above $30k right now--probably above $35 K or more. OFD units typically sell between $26k and 36K (????) but some have lately passed in the low $20k range. Very hard to gauge what purchase price and/or ROFR will pass right now.
    • OFC units are super-desirable for renters and/or users. There is a very high demand for the premium weeks and reservations are reported to be very challenging. There are not many units. OFD units are less desirable for renters (high MF's) but are still in demand. My experience this year only is that booking is not that difficult if the system works, but you might need to accept a different check-in day (other than Sat) or try for several weeks until you get one....or go slightly early or late (June or Aug) vs the middle of July. I just saw the June 3rd 2019 Sat check-in sitting on the dashboard on Friday. So, that would have been easy to get.....
    • There are tons of WKORV premium ocean-view units (vs limited 'end units' that are ocean-front) and booking is much easier in those units. There are also a lot of ocean front and view units in the North; those are apparently much easier to get as well.
    • Just from some quick browsing, I see a ton of SO availability so far. I can't answer beyond that. If you're only looking for one week (july 4th every year for example) than you're going to have problems. If you're flexible (Jun-Aug etc...) then I think you'll be fine.
    • Timeshares are good for those with patience and a great deal of 'attention to detail.' If you're not a good planner and just want to make one phone call and be done....then timeshares might not be for you.
    • If you buy in Maui (or HI in general) you should plan on using the unit in Hawaii. The MF's are too high to trade down every year... If you just want to visit Maui 'some years,' you'd be better off buying a CONUS mandatory resort (list below) and then trading into Hawaii on 'some years' or just renting/exchanging on those years. Again, if you book at precisely 8 months and 1 second ahead....and have some flexibility as to resort, you can probably get something good. Peak weeks at peak resorts (WSJ, Maui etc..) will always be difficult....
    So, buying into a WKORV OFD unit is probably $30k purchase, $3400+ a year on MF's and too expensive to 'trade down.'
    An ocean-view WKORV premium is about $16K purchase, $2400+ a year on MF's and is expensive to trade down....but not for WSJ or Atlantis maybe
    An ocean-front WKORVN unit is about $25k purchase (?), $2800+ a year on MF's and is too expensive to trade down as well.....
    Just a few numbers for you. YMMV

    A good Marriott unit in Hawaii is probably about $10k-18K (too many variables) and about $2400 MF's.
    A good Marriott unit in the 48 states is about $8k with about $1500+ MF's

    I'm sure that others with more experience will comment on the likelihood of getting those SO reservations etc...... (they have probably posted before I just did)

    One other thing: Remember, flying a family to Hawaii--even from AZ--is never a cheap and 'easy' experience. Especially as the kids get older, more involved and less flexible.
    I just sold a Marriott and bought Westin because I love the feel, the views and the greater flexibility with SO's. So, obviously, I like the concept. But....
    Perhaps you might be better served if you considered a Marriott purchase (legacy). They have more destinations, exchanges have priority in Interval and are not impossible to get (Westin will be harder to exchange in II, IMHO) and offer a great value both on purchase price and MF's. Just a thought.

    Good luck!


    There are six “Mandatory Resorts” which participate in the StarOptions program which is also known as the Starwood Vacation Network or SVN. They are:
    Westin Ka anapali Ocean Resorts Villas, Lahaina, Maui
    Westin Ka anapali Ocean Resorts Villas North, Lahaina, Maui
    Westin Kierland Villas, Scottsdale, Arizona
    Westin St. John Villas (Hillside Phase), St. John, US Virgin Islands
    Sheraton Vistana Villages (Bella and Key West Phases), Orlando, Florida
    Harborside Resort at Atlantis (Phases I and II), Paradise Island, Bahamas
     
  3. alwysonvac

    alwysonvac TUG Lifetime Member

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    The combination of limited supply along with restricted travel dates will make any timeshare resort reservation difficult.

    There are only 12 (OFC) and 24 (OFD) at WKORV.
    June thru August represents roughly 14 weeks out of 52 possible weeks

    You’re competing with every other family that is restricted by the school calendar. Summer break for US schools seem to overlap from mid/late June to mid August. Here’s a link to II’s Travel Demand Index to give you an idea of the greatest demand weeks in general for Hawaii - link

    You will also need to book exactly at midnight since you need to travel during peak season.
    NOTE: Some timeshare resorts sold fixed weeks which makes resort availability harder. I don’t know if WKORV sold any fixed summer weeks.

    I don’t have any experience with booking a Westin in the summer. But here’s my two cents...you might be better off buying a different view at WKORV/WKORVN (that is available in great quantities) or renting the summer OFC or OFD view. If you do decide to buy, be as flexible as possible with your travel dates (taking whatever dates become available).

    Good Luck
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
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  4. CalGalTraveler

    CalGalTraveler TUG Member

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    Great info here. Another alternative is to buy an WKORVN EOY unit if you don't want to go to Maui every year and use your off year MF

    a) to rent Maui or elsewhere
    or
    b) buy another trader eg mandatory SOs or HGVC or Marriott, Worldmark
     
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  5. taterhed

    taterhed TUG Member

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    Location:
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    Resorts Owned:
    Westin WKORV OFD
    Marriott's Grande Vista
    Worldmark x2
    Here you go:

    1. Here is a thread with a discussion I posted on the WKORV/N I hope it helps you
    2. Here is my standard advice to someone thinking about buying a timeshare (resale).

    Run the survey (There's a 'newbie survey' that will give you a clue whether timeshares might be right for you and what it might entail to purchase and own resale. Just follow the instructions here--> What to buy (are timeshares right for me) link here!!!!!)

    Then, get some suggestions as to what might fit your needs.
    After you figure out what resort/system, how many points/weeks etc.... Then get some specific advice about which resort/season/points (etc...) will give you a good combination of purchase price and cost per point on MF's. Yes, it's all about balance.

    After you find out what you want....then go shopping. But, before you do, get some advice on trusted (or well-known) sellers on the internet or Ebay. There are many potholes out there. let TUG help you miss a few.

    Finally, buying a timeshare on the resale market is a lot like buying a used car. You don't want to just 'wander in the showroom' and see what looks good and sign on the dotted line.
    • Find out what will work for you....at a cost you can afford. For a very long time--or until you sell or give it away.
    • Find out what to expect, how 'easy' is it to use ?
    • Learn about the advantages and pitfalls of different systems, brands and locations
    • Determine whether a timeshare or renting is best for your needs and habits.
    AFTER you are armed with the 'facts' and some good pricing information, then go find your perfect resort from a trusted seller. Don't jump into the water before you know exactly how deep (and cold) it might be. Sound good?

    Welcome to TUG
     
  6. CalGalTraveler

    CalGalTraveler TUG Member

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    FYI...South has very few EOY and they tend to be pricey. North has more availability so easier to reserve OF in summer and EOY affordable $12.5k to $15k.

    MF in North includes II. I have heard South does not include II so when you compare smaller difference.
     
  7. tschwa2

    tschwa2 Tug Review Crew: Rookie TUG Member

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    A few in SC, VA and FL, a single resort in NC, MD, PA, NY, UT, ME, WI, and TN plus Jamaica and the Bahamas
    All mandatory resorts include II. So Nanea no, but North and South yes.
     
  8. DavidnRobin

    DavidnRobin TUG Member

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    WPORV (Kauai)
    WSJ-VGV (St. John)
    WKV (Scottsdale)
    If you are buying OF WKORV - you buy to use or rent (IMO). Doing a VSN or II exchange is an extreme move down in most cases.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  9. CalGalTraveler

    CalGalTraveler TUG Member

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    My apologies. I had forgotten because I was told by a reputable agent a while ago when we were shopping for Kaanapali OF.

    II is NOT included with MVC Tower weeks down the beach so you need to adjust when comparing to Westin mandatory MF.

    Now if I can only remember where in the parking lot I parked my car! :)
     
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  10. mauitraveler

    mauitraveler TUG Member

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    From my past experience, the summer weeks are not that difficult to reserve, since you might have 6-7 weeks from which to choose. From what I've seen, the hardest is President's week, followed by the months included in whale watching season. Just be ready to be online and ready to book at midnight Eastern time for the date that you want. (Actually, the day before the date that you want so that you'll catch the date change on the villa finder at a few seconds after midnight Eastern.)

    Also, if the Saturday check-in is fully booked, you can try the next night and see if you can get a Sunday check-in. Continue to check for a few days afterwards too, because someone may decide to cancel. We did that this past February, and were able to book our OF at WKORV. Of course, the upper floors were all reserved already, but at least we did get the week that we wanted.

    Good luck with your research and I hope that you find the ownership that works best for your family. WKORV is wonderful! CJ
     
  11. controller1

    controller1 TUG Member

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    Westin FLEX
    @vacationemery please pay attention to this ---

    Any purchase of Oceanfront in Maui should be for your use or for you to rent. The upfront cost for Oceanfront is too great to use the week for a StarOptions reservation someplace else at the 8-month mark. If you want to regularly go somewhere else, there are less expensive alternatives. You should then be able to get an 8-month StarOption reservation in Maui most of the time as long as you realize in all likelihood it will not be Oceanfront.
     
  12. DavidnRobin

    DavidnRobin TUG Member

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    WKORV OFD (Maui)
    WPORV (Kauai)
    WSJ-VGV (St. John)
    WKV (Scottsdale)
    Not only upfront costs - but the ongoing MFs as well.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  13. taterhed

    taterhed TUG Member

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    Worldmark x2
    Yup. ANY timeshare can loose it's value overnight; but I think the ocean front units at WKORV/N are more likely to appreciate/hold than most.

    It's the dang MF's (and lost rent opportunity) that make these units too expensive to trade/use elsewhere. I really like the suggestion posted above: consider buying an EOY and then acquire another mandatory conus property (or a Marriott etc..) and plan a Maui trip every other year.
     
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  14. vacationemery

    vacationemery Guest

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    Thanks everyone for the input. Lots to consider!
    Anyone have experience on views for LKOVR and LKOVRN for "ocean view" and "ocean front"? Maybe ocean view would suit us also and give us a little more flex to book not right at 12 months since there's more inventory? Is OF solid at either property? I seem to remember OV was not always great at one of them?
    Thanks for all of the suggestions and insight!
     
  15. mauitraveler

    mauitraveler TUG Member

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    Personally, we prefer the OF and OV at KORV. The OF villas face the ocean directly, and we found that the OV villas have a better view of the ocean than those of KORVN. I also like that the MFs are lower for WKORV. Also, the one-bdrm. side of the villas at KORV are larger than those of KORVN. (We don't mind that there's not a true lanai in the studio portion at KORV (just a Juliette balcony.) Others may prefer the North side for other reasons. Comparing OV booking with that of OF, we've never had a problem with booking our OV villa, even when not booking right at 12 months. OF booking has been more of a challenge for us, though not impossible. CJ
     
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  16. vacationemery

    vacationemery Guest

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    Thanks, this is really helpful. We're wondering if we'd be just as happy with a OV as a OF... especially since it's half the price! And, our biggest fear, is that we pay for OF and never end up getting one anyway unless we're on the computer exactly 12 months out! Any idea how many OV rooms there are? (In comparison to the- I think- 24 OFD?) Seems like it'd take some of the pressure off buying OF, then booking and getting disappointed. I see some listings for OV Deluxe and Premium OV- are those actually different or just marketing shiny words for OV?
     
  17. vacationemery

    vacationemery Guest

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    I just sold a Marriott and bought Westin because I love the feel, the views and the greater flexibility with SO's. So, obviously, I like the concept. But....
    Perhaps you might be better served if you considered a Marriott purchase (legacy). They have more destinations, exchanges have priority in Interval and are not impossible to get (Westin will be harder to exchange in II, IMHO) and offer a great value both on purchase price and MF's. Just a thought.


    Thanks for all the good insight! Question.. what is II? and, please correct or clarify, but I thought Marriott were all based on pre-set weeks? (I could most certainly be wrong!) One of the big reasons we didn't "like" Marriott is that we thought we had to have a certain week and could only use it at the one Marriott resort at which we bought...? Would love to have different info!
     
  18. DavidnRobin

    DavidnRobin TUG Member

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    WPORV (Kauai)
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    WKV (Scottsdale)
    In theory there are the same number of Owners as there are villas for OF, OV and IV. Meaning... not more are sold/owned than available.

    There may be only 24 OFD and 12 OFC (as compared to the numerous OV) - but proportionally there are the same number of Owners.

    Of course there are more owners of fixed weeks/premium weeks for OF, but never more than what is available.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  19. taterhed

    taterhed TUG Member

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    @vacationemery You messed up the quote there.....research how to use the +Quote buttons.....

    I'll be glad to answer your question:
    • II is Interval International (II). It is the exchange system used by Marriotts (some Marriotts have dual affiliation with RCI (another exchange system), but not many).
    • Marriott Legacy weeks are (normally) assigned a 'season' for use. Basically, year-round, holiday, summer, spring/fall, winter etc.... Marriott designates these seasons by color (red, white, blue or platinum, silver, gold). Platinum or Red weeks are the most desirable based on demand. The holiday weeks units (52--Christmas/New Years or 'Ski-weeks' etc...) are super-high demand and may or may not have access to the other 51/52 weeks of the year. So, a 'Platinum' season Marriott unit can reserve all 52 weeks (or 51 if there is a special '52' week designation).
    • Marriotts are typically 'float' units, meaning that they can reserve within the assigned 'season.' There are some fixed I think, but not common.
    • There are some units in Florida that are part of the 'Florida Club' or FC. They have the ability to trade internally (at 6 mos out) to other FC Marriott units. Good if you want to see multiple locations in Florida.
    • The rest of the Marriott legacy weeks do not trade internally. In order to go to a different resort (Marriott or other), you must use an exchange system. Interval (II) is the system I'm discussing.
    • Marriotts in II have special preference (sometimes referred to as "MP" or "with/without Preference") when seeking to exchange to other Marriotts. Not all units available for exchange in II have this preference, but many/most do. The preference lasts from 1 to 24 days from the time the unit is deposited into II.
    • So......you can place an exchange request with II by either requesting (request first) an exchange before you 'give' them your week, or by depositing your week (deposit first) and then placing an 'ongoing request' for an exchange. Example, I deposit my Marriott Grande Vista 2br lock-off into II and request an exchange for Jan 2019 at any Marriott Hawaii resort, 2br. When the exchange is matched, II will assign me the exchange for a fee ($149 for Marriott to Marriott? can't remember, but less than $200). This happened this year. I deposited a 2br lock-off portion of my 3br Marriott Grande Vista, requested a Jan 2019 week at Marriott KoOlina and was assigned an exchange 2br unit.
    So, what I'm saying is this: When you buy a legacy week, you can not directly book at other Marriotts, but you can easily exchange to another resort due to the strong exchange power of MP and the trading strength of Marriotts in general. Flexibility is the key. Multiple resorts and multiple weeks must be considered when making your exchange request. It has worked very, very well for me. It is also possible to re-exchange your resort week (if something better shows up) via eplus. But, this is too advanced for a short discussion. I didn't mention it, but you can also complete an "Instant Exchange" in II, but this requires much more time and patience. A story for another day.

    I hope this helps. Read the stickies on Interval exchanges, and search for some "great exchanges with II" in the threads. You'll see.
    Also, remember: If you buy a 'lock-off' capable unit, you can reserve, lock-off (master and studio) and then make TWO deposits into II for exchange. This is the 'two for one' that is commonly discussed with lock-off units and II and exchanges.

    cheers.
     
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  20. alwysonvac

    alwysonvac TUG Lifetime Member

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    Here’s the link to the resort maps from the sticky thread.
    The link contains the unit numbers and a link to view designations by unit number thread.
    The Vistana Signature Network Disclosure Guide indicates that WKORV has 280 total units and WKORV-N has 258 total units.

    Here’s the current summer 2019 availability and Easter week (which is late April next year) for Saturday checkin in a two bedroom.
    NOTE: Since I’m not an owner, the only view types I can reserve using SOs is oceanfront and non-oceanfront so that’s what you’ll see below. You can’t tell how many units are still remaining (only low availability or none) and in what view type (Oceanview vs non Oceanview).


    3F1B66A2-275B-4D59-A65C-F445337A8A74.png

    BF8A804A-EC8E-4E6E-9CD1-742C398C1FA6.png

    C1110CA0-720E-48EB-B44A-CDA0100C8763.png

    FBC742DF-AA35-4FAE-84C4-4CE1FD7142B6.png

    28EFE700-E5BC-47DB-BE77-FCA362EB55F6.png

    1822DBA2-ADDB-4EC0-BAE5-C1101FF6F51F.png

    86E3022F-D114-4DCF-87BE-8E0DA1DADE44.png

    9AF63CB4-12BB-492D-8213-6F5AABF664FB.png

    8440B8DD-40FE-44A5-A3DC-F1B90370400C.png
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018 at 8:48 PM
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  21. alwysonvac

    alwysonvac TUG Lifetime Member

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    Here’s a view of 2019 availability overall by month.

    BE31090E-4353-4DBF-B2B8-EA79FB25D5CE.png


    7DA62F2D-FE25-4993-AEFA-A10D02F6D242.png

    62DB91F3-B905-48F4-936C-322EDA033D95.png

    DF082235-30C7-4E70-A87D-DA81D2EDBFF7.png
     
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  22. mauitraveler

    mauitraveler TUG Member

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    The OV deluxe are the corner units in Bldg. 4 that have an ocean view. IMHO I wouldn't purchase those because the MFs are higher, and their location is farther away from the beach compared to the Premium OV units which have closer views of the ocean and are located in Bldg. 2 and Bldg. 3.
     
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  23. vacationtime1

    vacationtime1 TUG Member

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    WKORV-OF (Maui)
    WKV x3 (Scottsdale)
    The premium OV units are oversized one bedroom units with oversized MF's (approx $1,900).

    I agree with mauitraveler that the Deluxe OV units are not a great deal; their MF's are about $3,200 (vs. $2,315 for non-deluxe 2bd units).

    imho, the OF units -- especially the OF center units with lower MF's -- are worth every penny of the one-time additional purchase price (presumably recoverable upon sale). The views are stunning. The lanais are superior. You will not have trouble reserving a summer week if you are diligent; whale season is the toughest reservation.
     
    vacationemery and mauitraveler like this.
  24. taterhed

    taterhed TUG Member

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    Resorts Owned:
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    Marriott's Grande Vista
    Worldmark x2
    Here are the ocean-side views of the resorts (left is WKORVN, right is WKORV). Notice that WKORV has OF units FACING the ocean. North has units angled to the ocean.

    [​IMG]

    I don't know if any of this will help, but lots to consider, so I wrote lots.

    WKORV is a great resort. lots of OV units (>140?). Bigger, cheaper MF, easier to reserve. Higher purchase price than WKORVN OV.. OF units are expensive to buy, OFD have big MF's--all OF are harder to book. Units are more private, ovens, bigger table for 6.

    WKORVN is a great resort; quieter (my limited experience). Smaller units, larger MF's. OF are not as good as south, but not as expensive--lots of OF units. OV units are more isolated and look over green field. But will it stay green? IV units are not bad...quiet, but same MF. North might be better for lock-off and small kids (no halls/vestibules) and balconies on both sides...

    Consider an EOY WKORV OV or WKORVN OF.


    So....for the record: the standard terminology....

    WKORV Westin Kaanapali Ocean Resort Villas (South or original phase)
    WKORVN " " North or 'new'
    WKORV/N " " South and North
    View: Ocean Front (OF), Ocean View (OV), Island View (IV)
    Maintenance fees MF
    Lockoff (L/O)--unit that splits into 2 separate units, 1 side master br and full kitchen, 1 side studio with partial kitchen

    All 2br units at WKORV/N are lock-offs

    WKORV 2br OFC/premium: lowest $$/SF 2br deluxe (any) higher $$$/SF 1br premium highest $$$$/SF
    WKORV has 1br units (dedicated)
    1br Premium Villa: 1br in WKORV. Nice unit but huge MF for the square footage. All are Ocean View and located just behind OF units.
    2br Premium Villa: 2br in WKORV. Nice units. Small MF, only 1 larger lanai on master side (small romeo-juliet balcony-window on studio). Oven and seats 6 at dining. Lock-offs separated by hallway....better for couples, teens etc... long halls/walk for small kids.
    • Ocean view: Any premium unit in bldg. 2/3/4 not designated as OF or IV. Views vary and are assigned based on time-stamp for reservation (basically). Lots of units.
    • Island view: 2br premium villa that faces building or parking-lot/road. Not too many IV units.
    2br Ocean Front Center (OFC) premium villa. Crème of the crop. Two full balconies with full-monty ocean-front view. Low(er) MF. Expensive to buy. Easy to rent. Hard to book. 12 total units.
    2br Ocean Front Deluxe (OFD) villa. Half-and-half crème 'o the crop. Full corner unit building 2/3 (master) with extra space, extra windows and big balcony with full ocean and side view. Studio portion faces 90 deg to ocean...but has nice lanai and is bigger. BIG MF. Cheaper than OFC, but more $$$ than 2br premium OV. Difficult to book on peek weeks (whales, presidents) must be booked quickly in summer
    2br Ocean View Deluxe (OVD) villa. Same unit as above (OFD) in bldg. 4, but faces away from ocean. BIG unit. BIG MF. Not so big view.
    2br Island View Deluxe (IVD) villa. Same unit as above...in bldg. 4, but on corners facing road/parking lot. Big unit, Big MF. Views of mountains, cars, maybe some water.

    WKORVN
    2br Villa 2br in WKORVN. Two balconies, pass-thru door between master/studio (good for small kids), no oven (conv microwave), seats 4 @ table. Smaller units, higher MF's compared to 2br premium villa at south.
    • Ocean front: Mostly bldg. 5/8, facing ocean at 45 deg angles/views. Some better than others.....smallish balconies on BOTH sides of unit lots of units
    • Ocean view: Units are all on the north side of building 7 (69-84 I think?). They look across the 'open' area between WKORVN and Nanea. I worry about the 'open' space here...may not always be private, open or dry. Seem isolated to me.
    • Island view: Any unit not designated OF or OV. Views range from very good (some ocean) to very quiet interior/exterior. NO parking lot views.
     
  25. vacationtime1

    vacationtime1 TUG Member

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    WKORV-OF (Maui)
    WKV x3 (Scottsdale)
    Rob's analysis in the previous post is comprehensive, but he downplays one point: about 15-20% of the OF units at WKORVN are not really OF and should not have been sold as such. Some are far from the ocean, some have obstructed views, and a few have no view (the beach bar is in the way; I don't even want to think about noise or food odors in those units). If you look carefully at the photo Rob posted, imagine the ground floor unit furthest to the left in the photo. That unit is OF (units 8113/14).

    I queried WKORVN-OF owners a few years back about assigned views and the responses seemed to indicate that owners get the good units and exchangers get the bad ones: https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/wkorv-north-ocean-front-how-good-was-your-view.125808/. But caveat emptor always applies.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018 at 11:44 AM

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