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Airlines tell parents to pay up or risk sitting rows away from their kids. That's wrong.

Discussion in 'Vacation Travel Information' started by MULTIZ321, Nov 20, 2019.

  1. easyrider

    easyrider TUG Review Crew: Expert TUG Member

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    Thanks Kurt. I will let them know.

    Bill
     
  2. MULTIZ321

    MULTIZ321 TUG Member

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    CanuckTravlr likes this.
  3. Sapper

    Sapper Tug Review Crew: Rookie TUG Member

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    ADA does not apply to air carriers. You are thinking of the Air Carrier Access Act 49 U.S.C. 1374 (c)
     
  4. Sapper

    Sapper Tug Review Crew: Rookie TUG Member

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    Yes, they in fact did create this mess. See the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978. Want to guess who pushed that one through Congress? Yes, the airlines who believed free trade would allow them higher profit margins than the 10% profit margin they were authorized under the Civil Aeronautics Board.
     
  5. PaulT

    PaulT TUG Lifetime Member

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    I have absolutely no problem paying the senior pilots (aka bus drivers) at that rate. While I agree that almost all flights now a days are very routine and easy for the pilots, if there is ever an emergency I want an extremely senior and experienced pilot(s) up front doing their best to save me. Not some low paid pilot with just a little bit of experience. Just remember the "Miracle on the Hudson". He was definitely a senior in years and had all the experience necessary to land the plane in the river and save the lives of every one aboard. Most of the airliner accidents in recent history have been with the regional carriers and these are the lower paid pilots with much less flight time. Are you saying that you would rather have one of these regional pilots flying your plane rather than a very experienced senior pilots? NOT ME!
     
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  6. x3 skier

    x3 skier TUG Review Crew: Veteran TUG Member

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    All true but since that Act was signed, over 20 US airlines have declared bankruptcy under Chapter 7 and over 60 under Chapter 11. A vast majority were small companies few have ever heard of but included were United, American and Delta. Allowing higher profit margins certainly doesn’t guarantee achieving them:D


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lis...nited_States#U.S._airlines_bankruptcy_filings

    Cheers
     
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  7. x3 skier

    x3 skier TUG Review Crew: Veteran TUG Member

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    I’ve flown a lot of hours with USAF Pilots who make 25–50% of the pay of Senior Airline Captains. My point is that training makes a good pilot, not the amount of their salary. If the Air Line Pilots Association can negotiate a salary of megabucks, good for them. More money doesn’t translate to better piloting skills only training and experience can do that.

    A good friend of mine is a retired fighter pilot who took a job with a regional airline because he enjoys flying. I’d rather fly with him than someone who has never faced a real emergency in 20000 hours. I would guess I’ve had more emergencies in my limited flying career in general aviation aircraft than the majority of airline pilots.

    It just seems to me the pay is an expense that is the result of negotiations, not any true connection to demands of the job. Otherwise Captains of Regional Jets and Mainline 777 Aircraft would be be paid pretty much the same since the result of failure of either one could mean the loss of over 100 lives.

    Cheers
     
  8. Sapper

    Sapper Tug Review Crew: Rookie TUG Member

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    We are going to have to disagree about this one.

    Airline pilots are under paid. If you disagree, and think they make mega bucks, I suggest you figure out how to get in the left seat of that 777. The majority of people who try, fail. Let’s take your Air Force friend as an example. He has all this experience, but did not get a job with a major airline? Why? He has the wrong kind of experience. Will he get to the left seat of that 777, probably with time.

    How much time does it take to make the left seat of that 777? Outside the college degree, preferably in a hard science like engineering. Flying in the military is a big plus. Astronaut? South West has a question on their application asking if you are or have been an astronaut. Have they failed a South West interview, yes. So, you need a Commercial Multi-Engine Instrument Pilots License, call it two years at a part 141 school. Less if you have that military pilot experience, though add on some years... and military pilots don’t get a commercial license. In fact, folks like your fighter pilot friend have a restriction on their multi that states center line thrust only. He lacks the experience with an engine failure causing asymmetric thrust issues. The airlines heavily discount flight time in fighter jets because of this issue. The centerline thrust experience is not experience that is useful to an airline. So all this training racks up tens of thousands of dollars in debt. Debt that pilot making minimum wage has to cover. Ok, so you have your ticket, now you need to build time (experience). You can train new pilots if you get your CFI,CFII, MEI. You can banner tow over South Beach, or go fly in the bush up in Alaska. Either way, tack on a couple more years. Maybe you get lucky and grab the right seat in a charter operator after a couple of years building time, maybe not. You finally make it into the right seat of that regional carrier. This is where your buddy is now.
    You are in the right seat for a year, maybe two. Transition to the left seat of that RJ. Another couple of years. You get a few airline interviews, maybe a fellow pilot who has flown with you is willing to take a risk and recommend you. You get a job with a major airline. Wait, you don’t get that 777 job..you get right seat in a 737 or A320. Two more years, transition to left seat of the B737/A320. Two more years, right seat on a 757. Two more years, left seat 757. Add in some international experience. Finally right seat on a 777/787/747. Two more years. Finally LEFT SEAT 777/787/747! Some do it faster, some slower.

    This is of course assuming you are able to maintain your medical, not get in trouble with the law (even too many speeding tickets will cause an airline to question hiring you), not hire on with an airline that goes bankrupt... or irritate the wrong check pilot and get a hickey on your record... or God forbid bend some sheet metal on a plane.

    Let’s talk responsibility. A doctor who has the same quantity of time in his/her field can kill one person at a time. They have a competence review by the board. Odds are they get to continue practicing. A 777/787/747 pilot can kill 300-400 people at a time, and this is just the folks in the back of the plane. We have not started talking about the lives on the ground.

    Let’s talk rough numbers. A 777/787/747 had a sales price of $300-400 million USD. EACH. Assume 350 tickets (300 on a 777, 400 on a 747) on a trans-Atlantic / Pacific flight. The average ticket price (first $6k, business $1.5k, coach $500) is $1500. 350*$1500=$525k plus mail and cargo (which pays better than the passengers) say $475k so the one flight comes out to an even million dollars of gross revenue per flight. Let’s say a pilot does 125 of these flights per year. The pilot in command is responsible for safely operating a $300-400 million dollar piece of equipment that generates the airline $125 million USD per year.

    Your friend flying the CRJ makes less money due to economics. A CRJ holds 50-70 passengers depending on the model, lets average to 60. It makes shorter runs that have a lower cost per ticket, say $150/each = $9k per flight plus the cargo and mail which is less profitable on these legs $6k/flight = $15k gross per flight. Say it’s an hour and a half on average. A pilot may do 650 of these flights per year = $9.75 million per year. Using an aircraft that cost $40-50 million when new.

    At any rate, all this was to say airline pilots are under paid. I never even made it into the unpaid travel, time away from home, recurrent training, higher rates of cancer among pilots, etc.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019 at 1:47 PM

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