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Advise on Buying WKORV or WKORVN

Richierich2

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(Fixed as Per DeniseM)

After owning SDO and doing a few decent trades, and getting to see the Nanea, we have decided we want to own Maui, and want to go about every other year. We want to go Spring Break, and maybe President Weekend, or Week in October, and maybe even Thanksgiving. Thus willing to spend more vs. trying to get a good deal.

We have to have a One Bedroom, and sometimes want to bring Family with us (Studio) So 148k points. (not that it matters because we do not plan to trade it)

So First Choice is:

A) is EOY, and maybe rent out the small side from time to time when we are not using it.

B) Or By EY, and plan on rent it out on a regular basis especially if I can get good weeks.

So Second Choice is What to Buy: (updated, Island View OUT)

1. WKORVN Ocean View, higher MF, but has Studio Balcony.
2. WRORV Ocean View, lower MF, larger but no studio Balcony.
3. WRORVN Ocean Front, sounds good on paper for rental, but have been told not really worth money compared to Ocean View, but should get a high room at 12 month out, as a owner.
4. WRORV Ocean Front, very expense but can get big $$$ rental money when not use. The only issue I have is that hard to get the really good weeks, Spring Break, President Day, Thanksgiving? What good is it to own it, if you can't use it when you want?

Happy with Just "A" and "3" as an answer, or more detailed reason would be great! Thank you!

OR WHAT DO YOU OWN AND WOULD YOU BUY SAME OR DIFFERENT?

Rich
 
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DeniseM

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You have some of your info. reversed - the prime ocean front view is WKORV - the south/original phase.

Ocean Front units have strong rental demand and rent for around $4,600. Ocean View units rent for around $3,900, and also have good demand. Demand is less for island view, and they rent for around $3,500-$3,700 - you sometimes have to reduce the price to get them rented.

The strongest rental months are February and July, with a Saturday check-in. Demand for Thanksgiving is not nearly as strong, because kids are usually only out of school for 2 days during the week. Spring Break is popular, but many schools are out for many different weeks, not just Easter, so it's not one set week. The later Easter is in the year, the less popular Easter week is.

-WKORVN has higher maintenance fees - $2,713 2018

-WKORV Ocean Front Deluxe (corner units) have much higher maintenance fees - $3,342 2018

-You get the most bang for you buck with the WKORV center Ocean Front units - hard to find, but the MF is several hundred dollars less - $2,467 2018 (same as ocean view and island view)

-If money is no object, I would buy WKORV Oceanfront Center.

-If you want a decent view, but have a more modest budget, I'd buy WKORV Ocean View.

-I wouldn't buy WKORVN becaue of the higher MF - it cost you more, but doesn't rent for any more.

-I would not buy Island View. The maintenance fee is just as high as Ocean View or Ocean Front, and you have zero guarantee of an upgrade. You could definitely get a bad room, facing the parking lot. (The back side of bldg. 4, below.)

In the picture below - the WKORV ocean front units are bldg. 2 & 3, and the WKORVN ocean front units are bldg. 5 & 8.

WKORVcolorAerial.jpg
 
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Richierich2

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I fixed it to say what meant ;).

I always respect your comments. I bought the SDO on your recommendation and been very happy with it.

Did not want to be too wordy cuz last time I got no replies.

1) But did not choose WKORVN Island or Ocean View because "someday" without kids we want to use it and want the balcony.

(We were not impressed with Nanea balcony)

2) Not a big view guy, at this time do not sit on balcony during day, usually down by pool. (I know that contradicts, #1) But wife's like spending mornings drinking coffee and reading)

MF not being a issue would you still choose WKORVN OV over WKORV OV for rental?

Believe that other than a natural disaster or having to sell during a recession, those WKORVN Ocean Front will have some value, so I am not afraid of the price. (Also happens to be what we made when we sold our rental, with my sweat equity)

That being said I think Westin have Optioned my offer twice on WKORVN OF with Syed.

What I am afraid of is there are only 12? 16? Center units. I want to go when it is good for us, Easter, Presidents, SB, TG, (my kids get all week) etc. thus why we want to own.
 
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DeniseM

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bizaro86

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I've rented on Maui a couple of times, and always go for WKORVN island view. An advance owner reservation has consistently gotten us a nice distant ocean view on a high floor.

That is what I would buy, because money is an object for me and island view is way cheaper. I would buy the eoy, and not fuss around with trying to rent when you don't want to go. The ROI isn't sufficient for the risk, in my opinion.

I think the view you get will be mostly good as an owner booking in advance, and the second balcony is worth the extra money if you ever plan to split up your unit. I wouldn't want to go to HI with no balcony, which is basically what you get in a studio at the non ocean front WKORV choices. I can't imagine the studios rent as well at WKORV for that reason, but DeniseM would know better than me about that.
 

CalGalTraveler

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A reputable broker told me is that a good portion of the maintenance fee difference between WKORV and WKORVN is that the fees for II are included in WKORVN maint. but not WKORV. If this is the case, then the two maintenance fees are not much different if you plan to enroll in II to trade or purchase II cash getaways. Is my understanding correct?
 
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okwiater

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A reputable broker told me is that a good portion of the maintenance fee difference between WKORV and WKORVN is that the fees for II are included in WKORVN maint. but not WKORV. If this is the case, then the two maintenance fees are not much different if you plan to enroll in II to trade or purchase II cash getaways. Is my understanding correct?
The doesn't sound correct to me. II fees are included with your SVN membership, and both WKORV and WKORVN are mandatory resorts.
 

CalGalTraveler

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The doesn't sound correct to me. II fees are included with your SVN membership, and both WKORV and WKORVN are mandatory resorts.

Upon further thought, you are right. Broker was comparing WKORVN with a Maui Ocean Club unit we were considering purchasing. For Maui Ocean club you need to pay an extra fee to join II to trade if you purchase resale unit.

Why do you think there is such a difference between north and south maintenance fees? North is newer so you would expect less maintenance. More taxes?
 

DeniseM

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As Starwood built new resorts, they raised the MF every time - why? Because they can. They get a percentage of the maintenance fees, and control the boards, so they have no motivation to keep them low.

1. WKORV
2. WKORV-N - higher
3. Princeville - higher
4. Nanea - higher
 
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bizaro86

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I'm pretty sure the biggest difference between WKORV and WKORVN is that the one bedrooms and two bedroom deluxe units are getting screwed at WKORV. They pay a higher share of MF, which reduces the MF for the regular two bedrooms.

If it were really just a new resort thing, what is stopping Vistana from raising the MF on the older resorts as well? They control the board, and have done big MF increases in the past. They could do a few 10% rises and make more profits.
 

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It's a lot easier to get away with higher maintenance fees at new resorts, than implementing a big raise with existing owners. At new resorts, they don't have any existing owners to please.
 

DavidnRobin

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It's a lot easier to get away with higher maintenance fees at new resorts, than implementing a big raise with existing owners. At new resorts, they don't have any existing owners to please.

and often - VSE subsidizes the new resorts
 

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I'm pretty sure the biggest difference between WKORV and WKORVN is that the one bedrooms and two bedroom deluxe units are getting screwed at WKORV. They pay a higher share of MF, which reduces the MF for the regular two bedrooms.

If it were really just a new resort thing, what is stopping Vistana from raising the MF on the older resorts as well? They control the board, and have done big MF increases in the past. They could do a few 10% rises and make more profits.

Per square footage - it is correct that Deluxe and 1Bd owners pay more MFs (relatively).

The thing that stops them is that they have to justify it based on the proposed budget - which is audited.
 

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I own WKORV-North Ocean Front because we enjoy spending two weeks at Maui by splitting the 2 bedroom and really hated not having a balcony for the Oceanview when we stayed in the studio on the South property. The North has a balcony for the studio. The WKORV south oceanfront deluxe do have nice balconies for the studio but the upfront cost is prohibitive. You can get an EOY oceanfront for $10,000 to 13,000 upfront. I have always been able to rent ours whenever we did not use the studio (renters want to have a view if they go to maui).
 

alwysonvac

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JMHO..
If I had to vacation during major holidays (Spring break, Easter, Thanksgiving, etc.), I would hesitate buying views that were limited in numbers.

Due to the high demand period, some unit types will book fastest than others as soon as the booking window opens simply based on the number of units available at any given time. In some timeshare systems, units for a specific week could be booked immediately (i.e. within the first 10 minutes) after the booking window has opened. As a result, I would take into consideration the number of rooms in each view category in an attempt to increase my odds of success by buying a unit type that could possibly have more availability based on quantity.
 

vacationtime1

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JMHO..
If I had to vacation during major holidays (Spring break, Easter, Thanksgiving, etc.), I would hesitate buying views that were limited in numbers.

Due to the high demand period, some unit types will book fastest than others as soon as the booking window opens simply based on the number of units available at any given time. In some timeshare systems, units for a specific week could be booked immediately (i.e. within the first 10 minutes) after the booking window has opened. As a result, I would take into consideration the number of rooms in each view category in an attempt to increase my odds of success by buying a unit type that could possibly have more availability based on quantity.

The number of units in a category is not a factor.

It doesn't matter if there are 600 owners chasing the twelve WKORV-OFC units vs. 7500 owners chasing the 150 WKORV-OV units: there are 50 owners for each unit and your "odds" are based on that alone (unless someone can show me, for example, that OF owners are more likely to travel certain weeks than OV owners).
 

alwysonvac

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The number of units in a category is not a factor.

It doesn't matter if there are 600 owners chasing the twelve WKORV-OFC units vs. 7500 owners chasing the 150 WKORV-OV units: there are 50 owners for each unit and your "odds" are based on that alone (unless someone can show me, for example, that OF owners are more likely to travel certain weeks than OV owners).

It does matter when multiweek owners can string up to 21 days reducing the number of units available. When there's a few to begin with it makes a big difference. - Removed based on DeniseM's comment below.

It also matters when the system can't accommodate everyone at midnight so you may have to make several attempts to get your desired week. You can be online at 12:01am and not get through. The system will max out at some x number of folks and doesn't free up until those folks are done. In the meanwhile you'll helplessly watch the limited number of units get gobbled up within minutes.
 
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DeniseM

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It does matter when multiweek owners can string up to 21 days reducing the number of units available. When there's a few to begin with it makes a big difference.

You can only do this with Home Options and Staroptions. Not with regular home resort reservations.
 

alwysonvac

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There was also this comment made in another thread (see below).
Don't know if Premier/Fixed weeks or Ultra-Premium Owners applies to WKORV-N oceanfront rooms too? :shrug:.


From "Why so difficult to book OFC at WKORV?" - https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/why-so-difficult-to-book-ofc-at-wkorv.258359/

On another note... in strict terms - there is one owner per week per villa-type - 100% accounted for when you include what's is owned by VSE/VSN (held for sales or rentals, etc). This is true for all villa types - they are not oversold per deed type.

If everyone uses their VOI - then there is only one slot per villa-type/week. Remember - each VOI is accounted for deed-wise.

When there are many villa owners per type - reservation openings are more flexible (for a multitude of reasons). When limited numbers for availability of premium villas like OFC/OFD, then less relative flexibility in reservation times due to more usage of these premium villas (not everyone gets premium weeks on floors 5-6 - so to speak).
Remember that many of these OFC/OFD were bought as Premier/Fixed weeks.

You are also competing with Ultra-Premium Owners (or whatever they are called - it is in CCRs/Owners Manual for WKORV - discussed previously).

Also- the big unknown - how many of these Primo weeks are being held by VSE for the ones they own (~10% a while back)

Anyway... we have no issue as OFD Owners over 10 years of making reservations EXACTLY at 12 months - not high season for most part. Then again OFD is easier than OFC - and have honor to have the most unbalanced MF/sqft relative to WKORV types by far.
 

Richierich2

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ON THE MATTER OF AVAILABLITY

Where Can I Find Out How Many of Each Room Type There Are?


I love that this has gotten back on topic.

My opinion is that EVERYONE who owns a OFC, and probably most OFD, know how to work the system to get the weeks they want and many of them use the for Rentals, so they are grabbing the desirable weeks to use or re-rent for high dollar.

Where-as people that have North Ocean View or Ocean Front may not be as high of Re-rents, (percentage wise?)

Second Opinion, if there are 10,000 people online trying to get Presidents week on Vistana, it is easier to get one of the 150? North Ocean Front Rooms, then 12 of the OFC, base on how long it takes get through system?
 
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Richierich2

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ON THE MATTER OF PRICE

Option 1.
Buy OFC $35K-45K (I think it is over $40K to get passed Westin BuyBack) --Usually only Avail, as an EY, so have to Rent Out when not using.
Keep SDO for Trade

Option 2.
Buy WKORVN Ocean Front or Ocean View $25,000-29000? (Anyone Know the Buyback for Ocean Front, is there Buyback for Ocean View?)
Buy WKV (Kierland) EOY $9000?
Sell SDO EY and Get EOY for Trader?

Option 3.
Buy WKORVN Ocean Front or Ocean View EOY $10000-15000? (not Rent Out)
Buy WKV EY $17000
Sell SDO, and use WKV as trader when I do not want to go there, and if that ends up not working get another SDO EOY.

(Current SDO are $1300, plus Interval Fee, comes to about $1400 year, get 2 Weeks, plus trade fee of $176, ends up being about $850 per vacation)
with WRV are $1600, plus Fees will be about $1000 per vacation, if I have to use it on Interval, but probably less cuz I will just use the Small Side as Trader)
 

alwysonvac

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There are various threads regarding the online reservation system issues.
Start by taking a look at the sticky thread at the top of forum titled "[Problems making VISTANA reservations - official thread]

Here's a link to questions you asked back in 2012 about WKORV. Some of the answers may be helpful - https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/wkorv-n-ocean-front-question.174832/

Here's another 2012 thread (an example of the difficulty before the online reservation system existed) - https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/wkorvn-of-presidents-day-gone-in-5-minutes.165029/

Note: Vistana's online reservation system started back in June 2012 with their initial beta release.

Just my two cents...only buy what you need (eoy) and be as flexible as possible regarding your travel dates (don't limit yourself to holiday travel only due to the high demand).

Good Luck
 
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Honestly, from a strict investment prespective i dont think any of thr westin maui properties are a good idea.

A few reasons why:
-timeshares are doing well, but the economy is booming. It will cycle back at some point.
-it will cost $30k-$50k now for the obligation to spend $3500 a year.
-as denise mentioned, ocean front units are renting for $4500. So, for an extra $1k, i can keep $30k-$50k in my possession earning interest, dont have the downside risk of timeshares in a bad economy, and confirm any week i want (no guarantee you actually get a presidents week). But if you have $4500 for a rental, there will be inventory to rent to you as owners are racing for those prime weeks to use as well as rent.

It just seems the downside risk isnt offset by much upside gain.

This point is moot if you are a multimillionaire, imo. In that case, it still doesnt make sense financially. But, it is a frivolous expense you can afford.

You have some of your info. reversed - the prime ocean front view is WKORV - the south/original phase.

Ocean Front units have strong rental demand and rent for around $4,600. Ocean View units rent for around $3,900, and also have good demand. Demand is less for island view, and they rent for around $3,500-$3,700 - you sometimes have to reduce the price to get them rented.

The strongest rental months are February and July, with a Saturday check-in. Demand for Thanksgiving is not nearly as strong, because kids are usually only out of school for 2 days during the week. Spring Break is popular, but many schools are out for many different weeks, not just Easter, so it's not one set week. The later Easter is in the year, the less popular Easter week is.

-WKORVN has higher maintenance fees - $2,713 2018

-WKORV Ocean Front Deluxe (corner units) have much higher maintenance fees - $3,342 2018

-You get the most bang for you buck with the WKORV center Ocean Front units - hard to find, but the MF is several hundred dollars less - $2,467 2018 (same as ocean view and island view)

-If money is no object, I would buy WKORV Oceanfront Center.

-If you want a decent view, but have a more modest budget, I'd buy WKORV Ocean View.

-I wouldn't buy WKORVN becaue of the higher MF - it cost you more, but doesn't rent for any more.

-I would not buy Island View. The maintenance fee is just as high as Ocean View or Ocean Front, and you have zero guarantee of an upgrade. You could definitely get a bad room, facing the parking lot. (The back side of bldg. 4, below.)

In the picture below - the WKORV ocean front units are bldg. 2 & 3, and the WKORVN ocean front units are bldg. 5 & 8.

View attachment 5110
 

CalGalTraveler

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A few reasons why:
-timeshares are doing well, but the economy is booming. It will cycle back at some point.
-it will cost $30k-$50k now for the obligation to spend $3500 a year.
-as denise mentioned, ocean front units are renting for $4500. So, for an extra $1k, i can keep $30k-$50k in my possession earning interest, dont have the downside risk of timeshares in a bad economy, and confirm any week i want (no guarantee you actually get a presidents week). But if you have $4500 for a rental, there will be inventory to rent to you as owners are racing for those prime weeks to use as well as rent.

It just seems the downside risk isnt offset by much upside gain.

First of all timeshares are not an investment. Does anyone think of Airbnb units they rent as an investment?

You are correct about a downturn. But don't buy if your budget is so tight you would need to sell and could not wait it out. If I need to reduce my budget by $2700 a year (that's only $225 per mo or $115 EOY/ mo.) to avoid financial ruin, I should not have purchased in the first place.

Second, the numbers you presented are inflated:

One can buy WKORVN oceanfront for $11 - $24k. (EOY - Annual) not $30 - $50k.

Maintenance is $2400 - $2750 not $3500 as was stated. That is a $1750 profit (that's almost another week's rental in a smaller unit.)

Breakeven on the initial buy in on is about 2.5 - 5 years not including residual value. That's not bad.

Third, there will be residual resale value on the units that can factor against the breakeven for Kaanapali oceanfront. Even if EOY sells for $6000 you have only lost about $5000. That's a little over the cost to rent for 1 week; plus renting is 100% lost money.

YMMV
 
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DeniseM

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OF Maintenance fees range from $2,467 - $3,342.
 
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